Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, PJ, I think it was pretty obvious given the past few days that your assignment wasn't going to be completed by everyone, so that gave you the chance to "wait" for everyone to finish, having to execute someone at deadline. I do, however, concede the fact that your execution wasn't out of the blue, although I did not agree that VitR/Phoebus was scum, obviously.

[RafK]

This is getting really stupid.

RafK - did

Glork

let Pooky make a "final defense"? Did Dead Rikimaru / Smashy let LuckayLuck make a "final defense"? Did Yos2 let mnowax have a "final defense"? Pretty much the only person who has gotten a "final defense" was spectrumvoid, and she was scum.

This is gross misrepresentation. Every king other than you (even Yos) has set down a final LoE with sufficient time for the final nominees to say stuff and for people to give opinions.

It's pretty bad when you're reduced to trying to say Glork didn't give Pooky and Yos time to be heard. Everyone and their dog had time to comment on that one before the Glorking occurred (and a fair bit of information surfaced as a result).

If I had been right about VitR, I very much doubt you would give a rats ass whether or not I gave VitaminR a "final defense".

No. If you'd been right you would have been forgiven, not vindicated. I made it clear before the execution even went through what I thought of your play. You're once again attempting to put words in my mouth. But hey, this time you're not doing it in large coloured letters, that's an improvement.

[petroleumjelly]

"Putting words in your mouth" my tush.

I am going to ask people to read Post 2598, and say whether or not I was "putting words in RafK's mouth". Because what I was doing was

connecting the dots

for the words RafK has

already said

.

If somebody says the following:

1.) All cats are mammals
2.) All mammals are warm-blooded

Concluding that that person believes "all cats are warm-blooded" is not putting words in their mouth - it making the

obvious connection

from what they've put out on the table.

My current point is that pretty much nobody has been: "I'm thinking about executing X, so I'll give them a week to respond." I've also given plenty of time for people to give opinions, and I was rather under the impression that

everybody kinda knew

I was primarily suspicious of VitaminR. If you haven't gotten that from my posts you haven't been reading them very carefully. VitaminR responded to arguments directly from me

multiple times

- so as far as I'm concerned, he had his "last words and attempts at explanation", and I read them and still didn't think he was town. I shouldn't have to make a big whoop-de-doo in saying "This is my official LoE! Cringe and bow before it! Comment on you think is scum! Those on the LoE - defend yourselves or die!". I made my LoE after I came back from vacation in all reasonable time, and gave people time to comment - they simply didn't. There's nothing I can do about that.

For MoS, I'm wondering how you resolve this paradox:

I ask people to do assignments, but I should "know" they aren't going to finish. However, I should make an earlier LoE - but wouldn't I then "know" people aren't going to comment on it? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. I should "give people time to comment" but "know that people won't comment". How do I solve that? Should I have not bothered making an assignment at all? I left the assignment because I

knew I was going to be gone for 1-2 weeks

, and therefore figured I had best come up with something for the town.

It's getting really freakin' annoying how I tried to run yesterday in such a way as to get people talking and reading back in the game, and I'm getting attacked because I should "know people won't do it", and that giving an assignment is "playing on the town's apathy" (when I was trying to get the town into being

un

-apathetic. I want to know what you think would have been a "good" way to run yesterday, on the preconditions that:

1.) I thought VitaminR was scum
2.) I thought Yos2 was town
3.) I will not execute somebody I think is town
4.) I knew ahead of time that I was going to be on vacation for two weeks

... because I'm interested in seeing it. I personally think I played yesterday about as well as I can expect of myself. I don't think "giving an LoE earlier" would have been much help, because I'm fairly certain I would have executed VitaminR even if I had given people a

month's

worth of advance notice.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well done. You've convinced me that you are not the play for today.

[RafK]

I think a good way to run would have been not considering VR to be scum

But seriously, in circumstances in which you are town and seriously believe VR to be scum and Yos to be town and you know ahead of time when you're going on vacation and when the deadline is (true), I think the only fair thing to do is state before you go away "This is my LoE. No-one other than people on this LoE will be lynched. Talk about this while I am on vacation. I might execute any of the people on this list once I come back. If you are on the LoE, consider this your final warning."

Was that so hard?

My current point is that pretty much nobody has been: "I'm thinking about executing X, so I'll give them a week to respond."

My current point is that pretty much everyone has put down an LoE they called final and allowed time for discussion on it. Glork put down an LoE of Yos, Pooky and two others. He then withdrew the two others. He temporarily had Mert in too but pulled him. He said he was definitely going to execute one of Yos and Pooky. Everyone was aware he was going to execute Yos or Pooky and had a chance to give their opinion on those guys as candidates. That's townie, because it's making people commit to opinions and arguments about the execution. Every other king has done something similar.

You made all but members of the town talk about anyone but VR for over a month, then returned from vacation and named a 5 person LoE, then a day or two from deadline said that VR was the guy. Not only does that limit VR's opportunity to defend himself, it means that the town by and large does not spend very much time talking about what they think of a VR execution. And if VR (or anyone else) does sense which way the wind is blowing before you say it explicitly, you get to accuse them of being over-defensive.

You keep relying on this thing that just because you were suspicious of VR for days, everyone should have assumed you were going to execute him. But if everyone executed whoever they'd spent the previous few days being suspicious of, Yos would have executed VR days ago :ninja: People do change their minds, and

it seemed like the whole point of your mass analysis assignment was to consider EVERYONE. Giving out that assignment didn't send the message that you already had only one target in mind.

[RafK]

EBWODP: Second last paragraph above should start "You made all but 2 members of the town talk about anyone but VR for over a month,"

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

PJ, let me state now that your sudden gut-feeling towards SV, combined with your 2 mislynches is the reason you received my vote. I'll agree with you when you say you've been shouting whole game that Phoebus/Vitty should die, so that in essence, your last day was less scummy then the first one. However, the fact that Vitty is a townie and that your so called "gut about vitty playing like in space monkeys" can be thrown towards the bin directly. Oh, and PJ, FYI:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 477#477477
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 940#479940

Those were the posts that let my scumdar go off. You attack him for following you (at least, that is what I

think

, because I can't really figure out your further reasons), which I find a very weak reason to vote with, which later switches to gut. I find this a very convienent thing to do, as it might come in handy if he turned up dead scum that you were onto him as well.

[petroleumjelly]

...it seemed like the whole point of your mass analysis assignment was to consider EVERYONE. Giving out that assignment didn't send the message that you already had only one target in mind.

In trying to undermine me, you actually make my point here. If I made it clear I was pretty much focusing on one person, I doubt the town would have bothered to discuss much of anything. We would likely have gotten comments like "It doesn't matter what I say, because the King already knows who he's going to execute". By not making it an open fact that I was considering executing VitaminR, people had an

incentive

to actually read back into the game instead of sitting around waiting for something to happen.

To respond to K-Scope, I had to reread spectrumvoid at that time, but the "view all posts function" had not been working earlier.

In post 860 I was commenting on Glork's list, and found that I couldn't recall very much about either spectrumvoid or Mert at the time. After the "view all posts" function returned, I made Post 948, which you have linked to. I feel like I've explained this a billion times - I couldn't think of why a townsperson would throw in a comment like "I really need to start learning from PJ" - it's so blatantly fawning that I am confident she did it simply to flatter me so I wouldn't consider executing her D1. People didn't seem to

understand

this reasoning, so in frustration I used the explanation of "gut" because that's what seemingly half the town was using to describe their suspicions at the time, and I don't see why everybody else should be able to use that as a divining rod for suspicion and not myself. Reading my posts in context ought to make the wording of those posts clearer, instead of in isolation.

[Yosarian2]

Alright. PJ's responses here do make me feel a bit better about him.

I'll find you someone to kill. It's not petroleumjelly, though. Probably MoS.

(shrug) I don't find MOS especally scummy at the moment, but if you have a case to make against him, I'd like to hear it.

(flips coin) Hmmm..tails...ok, looks I won't randomally kill someone today.

(Mostly kidding, but anyone who wants to make a case against someone, make it fast, or you might end up making it tommorow. )

[Mastermind of Sin]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 462#597462

That is the beginning of Thesp's case against me and my responses.

Thesp, you should know better than to think I'm scum just because I look scummy. After all the D1 protown MoS lynches at Thespival, I'd have thought you'd notice a trend...

[RafK]

I've also given plenty of time for people to give opinions, and I was rather under the impression that

everybody kinda knew

I was primarily suspicious of VitaminR. If you haven't gotten that from my posts you haven't been reading them very carefully. VitaminR responded to arguments directly from me

multiple times

- so as far as I'm concerned, he had his "last words and attempts at explanation", and I read them and still didn't think he was town.

If I made it clear I was pretty much focusing on one person, I doubt the town would have bothered to discuss much of anything. We would likely have gotten comments like "It doesn't matter what I say, because the King already knows who he's going to execute". By not making it an open fact that I was considering executing VitaminR, people had an

incentive

to actually read back into the game instead of sitting around waiting for something to happen.

8)

I think the above adequately demonstrates how PJ is trying to have it both ways here.

[petroleumjelly]

You are so frustrating.

Yes - anybody reading my posts should realize that VitaminR was my primary suspect. As far as I'm concerned, through my

constant questioning

of him, he had

plenty

of time to change my mind, and he failed to do so.

However

- I purposely did not go and say "I think I will be executing VitaminR today"

specifically because

this would take away all incentive for people to bother doing any rereading of the game, which was the point of my assignments to the town.

This is so freaking obvious I'm starting to wonder if you're purposely trying to act like you "don't understand".

[RafK]

I like it that you aren't trying to insinuate that I'm lying or scum, just frustrating

We've reached the end of this line of questioning, obviously. We have established exactly what it is you were doing. You want people to believe that you didn't deliberately avoid debate of the VR execution. I believe that the facts demonstrate that you did. I'm obviously not going to get you to admit that you're scum. It's now up to other people to decide what they think you did.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like it how RafK just ignored the fact that pj accused him of possibly purposefully "not understanding", which is as good as calling him scum anyways.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

In post 860 I was commenting on Glork's list, and found that I couldn't recall very much about either spectrumvoid or Mert at the time. After the "view all posts" function returned, I made Post 948, which you have linked to. I feel like I've explained this a billion times - I couldn't think of why a townsperson would throw in a comment like "I really need to start learning from PJ" - it's so blatantly fawning that I am confident she did it simply to flatter me so I wouldn't consider executing her D1. People didn't seem to

understand

this reasoning, so in frustration I used the explanation of "gut" because that's what seemingly half the town was using to describe their suspicions at the time, and I don't see why everybody else should be able to use that as a divining rod for suspicion and not myself. Reading my posts in context ought to make the wording of those posts clearer, instead of in isolation.

Thanks for the eleboration, although I'm still not buying this load of bull.

[Toaster Strudel]

I believe PJ.

[Cavane]

PJ's point that if he had stated his intentions to execute VR, it would have shut the game down while he was away, I think is valid. But Raf also has a valid point that it spread discussion out and took the focus

off

VR. Whether or not this was an intentional tactic on PJ's part, is the question here. I can definately see a scum PJ employing such a move, but I can also see town PJ trying to encourage discussion. Overall, however, it's a bad mark against him in that a townie was executed, and while I had PJ pegged as town, I'm definitely going to rethink my position.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Way to post nothing, Cavane. :rolleyes:

[Cavane]

I know it's not the greatest in the world, but I thought I did better than TS.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Ts' was more clear then yours. You took the spiritual path, I suppose

[Mastermind of Sin]

I <3 Cavane's more than TS's. Cavane notes that he takes certain sides with certain issues, which is an important clarification. TS said he believes PJ, which is a blanket agreement with PJ's side in all the issues under discussion regarding him.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Which will give us more information if either one of them turns up scum.

[Thesp]

[quote="Mastermind of Sin"]:fail: You're not going to gain anything from this. You're about the only person besides mnowax who continually says I'm scum. Everyone else has either said I was town or attacked me and then gave up the attack. As a result, there isn't much information to be had from my execution, especially since I'm not scum.[/quote]
This whole post bothers me, especially the whole "no information" bit, which seems designed to aim for practical lynches over

good

lynches. I'm torn over whether or not half of what you say is just so wrong is because you're scum and being deliberate, or you're just wrong.

I would like a Cavane kill, though, probably more than any other at this point. I think KaleiÐoscøpe picked up on something in his "nothing" post.

Vote: Cavane, Mastermind of Sin, Der Hammer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thesp, we'll see who's right when your suspects come up dead. I think you'll be surprised.

[Thesp]

Thesp, we'll see who's right when your suspects come up dead. I think you'll be surprised.

Is anyone else bothered by this?