Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Yosarian2]

No, as far as the execution was concerned, I killed the person I thought was most scummy looking, I didn't not "go with the flow". However, there were about 5 players that had gotten a lot of scrutiny, and I wanted to hear what everyone had to say about each one of those players, because I figured the information would be useful. And I was right.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

You fail to convince me. If there was one person on your list you were not really suspicious of, it was SV. And now you're claiming you were right? I find that a bit hypocrit, to be honest. Also, focusing on 5 players only is a good scumtactic: if the majority of the people on that list is town, the chances are low people prefer the scum one. So I'm not really buying that either.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You fail to convince me. If there was one person on your list you were not really suspicious of, it was SV. And now you're claiming you were right?[/quote]

I was right in demanding everyone give info on everyone on that list, even the ones I wasn't suspicious of, yes. SV is actually the perfect example; I was not suspicious of her personally, but there had been a lot of attention on her, and so I wanted everyone to comment on her because I thought that info would be useful once we did find out her alignment. And yes, that stratagy turned out to be a good one.

[quote]
I find that a bit hypocrit, to be honest. Also, focusing on 5 players only is a good scumtactic: if the majority of the people on that list is town, the chances are low people prefer the scum one. So I'm not really buying that either.[/quote]

Did you actually read that day? I started out trying to get people to comment more generally, and everyone freaking lurked. Almost no one was willing to contribute UNTIL I posted my LOE and demanded that people comment on those specific people. If I hadn't "focused on 5 people", nothing would have freaking happened at all.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I was right in demanding everyone give info on everyone on that list, even the ones I wasn't suspicious of, yes. SV is actually the perfect example; I was not suspicious of her personally, but there had been a lot of attention on her, and so I wanted everyone to comment on her because I thought that info would be useful once we did find out her alignment. And yes, that stratagy turned out to be a good one.

You make it sound that you were the one executing her. The way I see it is that avoiding SV was no longer possible, as alot of people were alread onto her. It's more a logical step to do then an actual good strategy as you speak about it.

Did you actually read that day? I started out trying to get people to comment more generally, and everyone freaking lurked. Almost no one was willing to contribute UNTIL I posted my LOE and demanded that people comment on those specific people. If I hadn't "focused on 5 people", nothing would have freaking happened at all.

I checked, and people didn't lurk. There were enough people posting. You were actually one of the people that should have been posting more, while you didn't. If you mean that

certain

people are lurking, you are correct, but saying everyone is lurking is far from reality.

FoS: Yosarian2

[Mastermind of Sin]

PJ is scum. Execute him. PJ complained and whined about being king and used the apathy of the town to wait until deadline to execute, where he could easily just make a decision without much reasoning behind it.

[Yosarian2]

There were 17 people alive at the time. From the point when I became king on march 13'th, until the point when I announced my LOE on march 21'st, we has useful relevent content from, what, 5 or 6 people? After a day when nothing at all had happened, I did NOT consider that "enough people posting", Kalei. Now stop being annoying.

MOS: I'm tempted to agree with you here. Did not really get a good vibe from PJ's behavior yesterday.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

There were 17 people alive at the time. From the point when I became king on march 13'th, until the point when I announced my LOE on march 21'st, we has useful relevent content from, what, 5 or 6 people? After a day when nothing at all had happened, I did NOT consider that "enough people posting", Kalei. Now stop being annoying.

Oh, so now i'm annoying!

I'm sorry I proved our king to be wrong. Difficult eh?, when your web of lies start to break down?

Seriously though, I'd consider 5-6 relevant content in 7 days normal. Especially if you categorize the votes as not relevant, while they in fact are the primary line of catching the scum.

[Yosarian2]

You consider it ok if only a third of the town is actually participating? After no one had really contributed anything in the past month when we'd had the last king?

And, other then Fritzers silly "vote everyone" votes, I was considering the votes to be content.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

You consider it ok if only a third of the town is actually participating? After no one had really contributed anything in the past month when we'd had the last king?

There will always be lurkers and always be active players. I don't see that to change quickly, even if you push for it. If people refuse to participate, it's a task for the MOD. Besides, lurkers leave tracks as well. I consider Fritz's Semi-lurk a typical scumtactic.

And you really can't compare the last month with any other kingship. There was Thespival and Vacation time for alot of players. Although it's not good for the game, it's normal stuff. It's the month of July baby

And, other then Fritzers silly "vote everyone" votes, I was considering the votes to be content.

Alright then.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I disagree with Kscope. 5-6 useful things in a week is bad.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

In a normal game, this seems quite normal, as you seem to forget there is always a crapload of spam between the good points. Also, people have different opinions about whether something is useful or not, so I'm leaving that in the middle.

The whole point is though, that Yos2 claimed that that everyone was lurking while it wasn't. Even if there were only 5-6 useful things, it's nothing near a classic lurkinggame.

[Mastermind of Sin]

2/3 of the game not posting content is more than enough to justify what Yos2 did. I agree with many of RafK's points against Yos2, but I feel that you are going out of your way to make it seem that everything Yos2 has done was a vicious lie, deviously thought up to screw the town over. You're reaching, Kscope.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]In a normal game, this seems quite normal, as you seem to forget there is always a crapload of spam between the good points. Also, people have different opinions about whether something is useful or not, so I'm leaving that in the middle.

The whole point is though, that Yos2 claimed that that everyone was lurking while it wasn't. Even if there were only 5-6 useful things, it's nothing near a classic lurkinggame.[/quote]

Um, if only 5-6 people are contributing in a game of 17 then yes, basically everyone is lurking. In any case, I still don't see what the hell your problem is with me wanting people to comment on the 5 people that everyone seemed to think were scummy. You try to say that I was "Trying to shut down other conversation", but that's clearly idiotic, as there was another person that I added to that list later based on other conversation which I was, in fact, encouraging.

[Yosarian2]

You know what, I'm really getting sick of this game, getting sick of having the same stupid BS arguments thrown at me over and over again, and I don't feel like playing this game for another 11 months, which we might at the rate we've been going at. So don't expect me to take the whole month to make a decision here. If anyone has any useful suggestions about who I should execute, and can make a good case for why, I'll be glad to listen. If most of the town is going to just sit around and lurk, or waste time trying to attack me with BS arguments just to make it look like they're participating on a day when I clearly won't be lynched, I might as well just hammer someone now. I've got no patience for this game anymore, and I'm not going to bother begging for mod-prods on lurkers when the whole freaking game is AGAIN and STILL lurking, like everyone has been for the past freaking YEAR, so make your arguments now, everyone, or just keep sitting there quietly until I kill one of you.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Yos2 asked me for my reasons of the players of my list. I eleborated on them. Yos2 can give me numerous reasons on why my thoughts might be wrong, but I'm not going to let go my gut, as I know from my past experiences my guts are good. I think it is likely that in my list, at least one of them is scum, if not two.

You may say that my points might be reaching, and you may be right as well, as I'm not the master in explaining my scummy feelings against someone. However, I'm not here to convince Yos2 of my suspicions. I've mainly eleborated on them. I don't think my opinion has any value this day, considering the king is one of my prime suspects.

[petroleumjelly]

As for PJ: He continues to use the tactic "last-second-hammer", which allows him to switch his opinion during the last minute so everything turns out the wrong way. Rosso was hammered because of a last thought change. Vitty died, when PJ very little eleborated on his thoughts on his LoE. He could've picked anyone to his liking. Both have turned up town. Also, his sudden 'connection' with SV is something that doesn't sit comfortable with me as well.

My hammers aren't used "last-second" so that "everything turns out the wrong way". I've made it quite clear that I like to use time that is available to me – if I have more time to think about something, I'll use it. I don't like deadlines, and I don't like fast games, specifically because I'm the type of person who needs to sit down and think. Acting on impulse tends to get things screwed up. I will, however, concede that Day One was some of my more unfortunate playing on mafia scum – if I were to do it again, I would have executed Phoebus over MoS's appeals (and yes, in hindsight this would not have been an execution on scum, but read further) instead of switching to Rosso by the prodding of Pablito and Glork.

Pretty much leaving Phoebus alive made me think about Phoebus for however long the game has been going. For about eight – nine months, I've thought he has been scum. Everything about his posts looked like scum trying to subtly push along the biggest wagons of the times, and when VitaminR replaced in I got flashbacks of him replacing into Space Monkeys as scum. I think it's pretty clear from anybody who has read my posts that I've pretty much wanted that role dead since Day One. I've been "elaborating" on my reasons practically

all game

– you're more than free to actually bother to read my posts.

Except the problem is, you already

do

claim to have read my posts because I

assigned

you to do so. And if you did read them, it shouldn't be hard to miss me talking with VitaminR. It was rather difficult to talk to Phoebus since he never answered anything, and when DoS replaced in I gave him space to see if he could change my mind. Basically yesterday's execution was the culmination of approximately

nine months of suspicion

. I've been wanting him dead

all game

. "Elaborating" on somebody I've been talking about for what feels like half the thread just seems like a waste of time. If I had "elaborated" it would have been strictly for show, because I've already given my reasons for suspecting him, and I've said the same things in multiple ways.

The other people on my LoE were mostly there for the purposes of discussion – and I also made this clear yesterday. My first LoE was made under MoS's suggestion, to 'threaten' the players who did not finish their assignments (even though I had no intent on executing any of them). I

wanted

to be able to make my official LoE earlier, but

people did not finish their assignments during the entire week I gave them

, and even during the week I was back from vacation, people did not finish their assignments. I tried to get people back into the game, and not only that, but doing so in a way that also got people to reread the early days where there is undoubtedly lots of information to be had. One of the problems of games which are this long is that nobody ever bothers to reread – they just respond to the latest posts. This essentially lets all of the scum interactions early-game (which are always easier to see after pretty much half the town is dead) go unnoticed.

I also don't think I had a 'sudden connection' with SV – I first had suspicions of her at the end of Day One, when I reread the entire game and gave my thoughts on all living players. I don't think I was the first person to notice things about SV, and I certainly wasn't the last, but what mostly made me suspicious of her was her fawning over me, which I

have

explained probably at least five times over the course of the thread. If you could explain this 'sudden connection', it would be appreciated.

PJ is scum. Execute him. PJ complained and whined about being king and used the apathy of the town to wait until deadline to execute, where he could easily just make a decision without much reasoning behind it.

*slaps*

Same as above. I complained because I

didn't want to be King

. And I absolutely was not "using" the "apathy of the town". Coming from the person who's catch-phrase is "go read my posts", you really should go read

my

posts.

I

tried to get the town

out of their apathy

by having

everybody

go back and reread

two separate people in detail

. This would in theory get people back into delving back into the depths of the game instead skimming the top (responding to only the latest posts and not early posts). It would get people into the habit of making substantial posts instead of spamming useless "I think x is scum" without explanation. I had planned on making my LoE in the week between my two vacations (to Canada and Thespival), but five or so people still had not finished their assignments by that time, so I was forced to simply to do my own assignments and prod those that did not finish. When I came back people still had not finished. I made a new LoE hoping there would be discussion, but it ended up just being me and RafK talking for about three days and nobody else doing anything. I don't know what miracles you expect out of me, but I thought I went beyond what is reasonable in trying to get people back into a long and boring game.

[RafK]

I had planned on making my LoE in the week between my two vacations (to Canada and Thespival), but five or so people still had not finished their assignments by that time,

so I was forced to simply to do my own assignments and prod those that did not finish

. When I came back people still had not finished. I made a new LoE hoping there would be discussion, but it ended up just being me and RafK talking for about three days and nobody else doing anything. I don't know what miracles you expect out of me, but I thought I went beyond what is reasonable in trying to get people back into a long and boring game.

No-one forced you to do anything.

People's failure to do their assignments (which I'd argue you could have expected in any game, let alone one as lurkery as this) gave you an excuse to put off making your own LoE, but you knew the deadline well in advance and CHOSE to put it off due to people not doing their assignments. You were not FORCED.

I find it interesting that Yosarian is looking at you, though.

Yos, if you're town and PJ is scum, why didn't PJ take advantage of the fact that SV had come up scum to execute you instead of stretching the day out forever and then deadline executing VR and making himself look bad?

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) If PJ is scum, why would he want to execute me, when several other people are apparently suspicious of me? Frankly, it's probably only a matter of time until some townie ends up executing me, and that's probably what the scum are counting on. Of course, if I manage to get a scum today, that hopefully changes, but they had no way of knowing I would be king today.

[petroleumjelly]

New postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: 2641 Reply with quote
petroleumjelly wrote:

I had planned on making my LoE in the week between my two vacations (to Canada and Thespival), but five or so people still had not finished their assignments by that time, so I was forced to simply to do my own assignments and prod those that did not finish. When I came back people still had not finished. I made a new LoE hoping there would be discussion, but it ended up just being me and RafK talking for about three days and nobody else doing anything. I don't know what miracles you expect out of me, but I thought I went beyond what is reasonable in trying to get people back into a long and boring game.


No-one forced you to do anything.

People's failure to do their assignments (which I'd argue you could have expected in any game, let alone one as lurkery as this) gave you an excuse to put off making your own LoE, but you knew the deadline well in advance and CHOSE to put it off due to people not doing their assignments. You were not FORCED.

All things considered, I

was

forced. I don't give the town an assignment just to say "Oh well, I guess it's okay half the town didn't do their assignment. Sucks to be me". And before you forget, I was the person who asked the deadline to be

extended

multiple times - people keep acting like I was "hiding" behind the deadline, but (and I hate using WIFOM, but it seems so obvious to me) if I was doing that, why would I keep asking for it to be

extended

? If anything, I want a

quicker

day so I would have even less time to make a LoE, and so forth.

And actually, you even admit I "stretched the day out forever". Why do you think I did that, RafK?

[petroleumjelly]

If anything,

if I was "hiding behind a deadline"

I

would

want a quicker day so I would have even less time to make a LoE, and so forth.

Fixed.

[ThAdmiral]

I just had the thought that the task of making us choose the scummier of two people not only helped define who the town was most suspicious of, but also helped the scum find out who we

weren't

suspicious of.
Zindaras came off looking good, and so was killed.

[Thesp]

You know what, I'm really getting sick of this game, getting sick of having the same stupid BS arguments thrown at me over and over again, and I don't feel like playing this game for another 11 months, which we might at the rate we've been going at. So don't expect me to take the whole month to make a decision here. If anyone has any useful suggestions about who I should execute, and can make a good case for why, I'll be glad to listen.

That's AWESOME.

I'll find you someone to kill. It's not petroleumjelly, though. Probably MoS.

[RafK]

Zindy was killed for executing SV, just as Glork was killed for executing Pooky. It didn't take PJ's task to figure out that people were generally pro-Zindy.

My issue with PJ's assignments remains that he had people analyze 2 people (of PJ's choice), then acted as if people wanted to execute whichever of the two they found to be scummier. I don't think they defined very much at all, and it's not as if they were a factor in PJ's execution.

I feel that PJ is trying to have it both ways on the VR execution. Either it was clear all along that PJ was going to execute VR (in which case all the rigmarole about analyzing other people and using the LoE as a threat to get people analyzing was pointless) or else PJ's intent was kept hidden so that other potential scum still felt threatened (in which case VR didn't know well in advance that he was going to be executed and didn't have the chance to make a final defence). Obviously I think the second one is what actually happened. For someone who has been repeatedly apologetic about the way he executed Rosso, it is beyond belief to me that a town PJ would pull a similar thing with VR- announcing intent to execute him way too late for VR to defend himself. Obviously VR couldn't make a final plea for his life before PJ has even made a final LoE!

I begrudge Yos one point here- his scenario for scum PJ with a town Yos is believable. Their alignments are not necessarily the same.

[petroleumjelly]

This is getting really stupid.

RafK - did

Glork

let Pooky make a "final defense"? Did Dead Rikimaru / Smashy let LuckayLuck make a "final defense"? Did Yos2 let mnowax have a "final defense"? Pretty much the only person who has gotten a "final defense" was spectrumvoid, and she was scum.

If I had been right about VitR, I very much doubt you would give a rats ass whether or not I gave VitaminR a "final defense". I executed him because I thought he was scum, and I've been thinking that for the pretty much the entire game. I pretty much had

my

mind fairly set on who I was going to execute, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to let the town laze around and not comment on anything. As such, I tried to get the town into the habit of reading back in the game.

Yes I turned out to be wrong, but I don't think my kingship was as "horrible" as you are trying to portray it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what, I'm really getting sick of this game, getting sick of having the same stupid BS arguments thrown at me over and over again, and I don't feel like playing this game for another 11 months, which we might at the rate we've been going at. So don't expect me to take the whole month to make a decision here. If anyone has any useful suggestions about who I should execute, and can make a good case for why, I'll be glad to listen.

That's AWESOME.

I'll find you someone to kill. It's not petroleumjelly, though. Probably MoS.

:fail: You're not going to gain anything from this. You're about the only person besides mnowax who continually says I'm scum. Everyone else has either said I was town or attacked me and then gave up the attack. As a result, there isn't much information to be had from my execution, especially since I'm not scum.