Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[AutumnEvenings]

I know the mods don't really like to be asked but...

Mods

: Hacker Huck has not posted since July 19, and BillyTwilight has not posted since July 17. Could they be prodded?

[Jack]

smells like distancing

(inhims posts not AE's)

[Jack]

I'm thinking I should revert to guardian. The case against him is stronger, and if guardian is scum, then it's a black mark which we can use to get Glork next. He was my favorite target for the majority of day one, which I mentioned several times. I wish I had been more determined to see him lynched. Hindsight is 20/20, they say.

The case for Guardian:

He was consistently trying to hop wagons to find one that stuck. Starting on page 9 he placed the third vote on BM. Trying to build a wagon that started to get traction? He also did some considerable jumping afterwards. In total, he's voted for Glork, MBL, BM, N9V, BM, Shteven, TCS, Albert, Shteven, BM, Shteven, Yogurt, BM, inHimshallibe. Repeated wavering, and eager to jump around. The first one was a joke, but afterwards they all appeared serious, or at least as serious as he has been.

MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM. I put some stock into this. Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind. Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.

I'll pick up the case on glork for day 3, I think. That is, if Guardian turns out to be scum. I've become undecided on Glork for now; I think his alignment will probably match Guardian's.

Unvote. Vote: Guardian

Did people not read this post?

[inHimshallibe]

smells like distancing

(inhims posts not AE's)

I still maintain Shteven = Town. I didn't call him out as far as suspicions go; I just wanted to make sure he knew what he was saying was entirely untrue. If you can read my posts and garner the same as Shteven did, I really want to know what angle you're reading my posts from.

[Glork]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

[Battle Mage]

all Guardians ravings are starting to make me more favourable to him. I really really hate myself.

[AutumnEvenings]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

[Yosarian2]

Heh, I think I may have just become the chaff I keep advocating for us to clear away.

What hoop can I jump through now so we can avoid a silly wagon on me?

I'd like you to explain, from a strictly theoretical mafia-stratagy sense, if and when it is a good idea to lynch a claimed doctor on day 2.

Then, after you're finished that, I want you to explain why you felt the need to tell Guardian that he was "full of it" for saying he was going to be away and asking to hear more from you. Because, from my point of view, it looks like you were just trying to goad him into a response, and disptie the fact that his response ("inHim, you are ridiculous. Really." and "If you are town, seriously, stop being so dumb...") was actally rather mild considering the provication you set up, you then used it to try and accuse him of an "Appeal to emotion". That whole set of posts looks like you trying to set up a noob trap, and I don't like it.

[Shteven]

A small clarification about inhim: I kind of jumbled my thoughts together into a blob, without really sorting out the relevance. I mentioned I thought he looked good on the re-read of his posts, but the I'm-not-glork fos: shteven pattern shows. It's a huge stretch to say he's scum off that. He hasn't been pushing it like sarc is/guardian has at times. I would vastly prefer guardian/glork and even sarc (who's behind the other two) before inhim. I mentioned him because AE wanted to see 3 targets.

In hindsight I'd probably put MBL around inhim also, but it's a vibe thing and MBL has at different times struck me as both very helpful and very unhelpful. In either case, both of them are very low concerns and more of a "I'm watching you for day 5" kind of thing. I'm not looking for much action on them unless someone can point out something I've missed.

I may be making too much out of the players linking themselves to glork/shteven pattern, but it has my name in it, so it's something I am watching for. Let me know if you think this has any merit or if it's just useless speculation.

Overview of today's action would be guardian/glork followed by Sarc followed by some lurkers followed by inhim/mbl followed by everyone else. They're down low. Let's pretend there's 2 lurkers that list would be 7 people and is therefore certain to contain multiple town, even if I managed to snag all 3 scum and sk on it (which I am probably missing about one of). Keep this in mind.

[Shteven]

First, one additional thing, Yosarian2's above post about inhim is valuable. I still like inhim (relatively speaking), but that post was a negative point. The other point against him, which I mention below, is the -1 vote on guardian. This puts him on the radar, but not too highly overall.

And for the rest of the post, I intend to mercilessly mock Glork for:

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

So away we go! All posts here will by shteven-only post count, to save me time.

Some recent thoughts: Guardian's claim I'd put at around 40% likelihood. However, it's increasing his chances of being NK'ed, so I don't think we need to waste a lynch.

Since then I'd lower the chance to around 25-30%, but I think this quote is quite obviously intended to be talking about Guardian's claim. His chances of being night killed are still a valid day 2 defense, and a reason I'd be willing to lynch someone else.

About inhim putting guardian at -1 for the claim to come out:

Inhim's comments about guardian claiming early are -entirely- uncalled for since he was the one who put him at -1. I probably shouldn't have even put him at -2; I placed the vote (had the post typed up) and then went back to count the vote, only then realizing it was -2. That said, I realized that while still previewing the post, and I went ahead with it. It didn't seem too forward at the time, but the -1 that followed it up was too early.

My entire post 51 is on guardian, although not his claim specfically, so let's move on to post 53, which I'll simply quote in it's entirity:

Glork: Well, that's certainly more consistent with day 1 now Wink

As far as re-voting guardian, it's that I became less and less convinced of his claim. I may have let inhim (someone I don't trust much) have too much sway on my thoughts, I'll admit.

Really, the main reason I unvoted him was because I figured he'd be night killed. I didn't give this much thought when I re-voted him, and perhaps I was too hasty. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and frankly I've been having doubts about my reads on several people in this game. I realize it's early, and it's not as if I was the only one wrong about Albert, but I really don't want to be wrong twice.

I agree that one of Shteven/Glork/Inhim are scum, it's just not me. Smile Possibly two; but again, I'm not one of them. Probably just one of them, anyways.

(Hint: the one is Glork)

My post 57 talks about guardian's claim being inherently un-counterable, as well as asking for more information from TCS. TCS, come to think of it, would be an excellent candidate for one of those "lurker" votes I mentioned in my last post.

I'd like to hear from TCS. He was initially trying to lynch Glork, a wagon which isn't as popular as it should be. He's expressed a lot of doubts about Inhim's alignment as well.

But then he voted me because my vote is on a claimed doctor. He seemed to have a problem because it wasn't countered; I've mentioned since then that a counter-claim would make no sense in this game. TCS, are you still using that reason to vote me, is it something else, or will you reconsider your vote?

I don't believe he's responded to this yet.

I feel that Guardian and glork would be the best choices.

Should be able to infer something here about Guardian's claim...Choices meaning lynch choices.

So to summarize:

guardian - likely scum; don't buy his claim; only reason to not vote him is if you hope he'll be night killed instead. In that sense, you could give him a day.

To summarize this post, WTF Glork? Are you reading this thread? This has happened in the past, where you respond to me but don't really seem to be talking directly about what I have been talking about. This one is just so obvious that I'm at a real loss to explain how it could happen. The others were much more subtle. In fact, this is coming very close to making me want to switch back to voting you. I'm sorry to everyone else about the volume of quotes, but I wanted to underscore how absurd Glork's question was, especially with the vastly decreased post count lately, it should be trivial to find out what I think about guardian, most of my posts are about him.

Glork: can you explain why you're voting for me if you cannot hear what I am saying in thread? Please be advised that at least one vote, mine, hinges upon this. I hope a few more will also

[Shteven]

I'd like to hear from TCS. I've asked him a few things directly which I hope won't be lost in the noise. His last post (4 days ago) promised a re-read and asked for time, so still a couple days would be fine, but please get around to it

I'm also curious what he thinks of recent Glork since he's been one of very few to share my distrust of Glork.

[HackerHuck]

I'm thinking I should revert to guardian. The case against him is stronger, and if guardian is scum, then it's a black mark which we can use to get Glork next. He was my favorite target for the majority of day one, which I mentioned several times. I wish I had been more determined to see him lynched. Hindsight is 20/20, they say.

The case for Guardian:

He was consistently trying to hop wagons to find one that stuck. Starting on page 9 he placed the third vote on BM. Trying to build a wagon that started to get traction? He also did some considerable jumping afterwards. In total, he's voted for Glork, MBL, BM, N9V, BM, Shteven, TCS, Albert, Shteven, BM, Shteven, Yogurt, BM, inHimshallibe. Repeated wavering, and eager to jump around. The first one was a joke, but afterwards they all appeared serious, or at least as serious as he has been.

MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM. I put some stock into this. Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind. Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.

I'll pick up the case on glork for day 3, I think. That is, if Guardian turns out to be scum. I've become undecided on Glork for now; I think his alignment will probably match Guardian's.

Unvote. Vote: Guardian

Did people not read this post?

I fully agree that Guardian is not the play today, nor for the next few days unless we get reason to believe his claim isn't genuine. But, I don't really see how this condemns Shteven.

I do find it rather interesting how day two has turned into more of a Glork/Shteven/Inhim debate of sorts. I'm leaning toward Shteven being town, but I can understand the cases that have been made against him. What has me the most puzzled is the amount of strong, vocal support for his lynch. Glork strikes me as more likely to be scum, but (much like with Guardian) it's more damaging to the town if I'm wrong about him. I'll probably need to do a reread on Inhim, but my current feeling is that I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean he's scum.

I'm more looking at the people I was most suspicious of yesterday. I don't really feel that MoS as scum means YB is town. His play today is

much

different than yesterday's and I find it very amusing that he makes this post about Jack -

Jack (sorry, your posts are just so short )

THANK YOU!

when he's been acting the same way as of late. He's doing what I would consider lurking in plain sight.

I think that TCS is exhibiting some of that same behaviour now in Day 2. Mostly short posts where he's just advocating his wagon of the day, either Glork, Inhim, or Shteven (or Guardian before he claimed). It's funny how he's voted for all three of the major factions.

Not really my place to comment on this, but I don't like how MBL has quieted down either. He's been noticably absent for a couple weeks and just pops in to comment on Shteven. Not going to look myself, but does anyone know if he was on V/LA lately? I've seen him blend back into the scenery as scum before, but I'm not sure what to think of this post.

MOS, after you hammered the following people in your initial post:

Guardian

is hard to read, but

I don't think he's being very helpful.

I completely disagree that Glork is being overdevensive, and I don't see why he thinks YB is town. guardian agrees with MBL's bad case against TCS,

not looking good for him

. Keeps changing his position on BM,

not making a lot of sense here

. I think

Guardian changed his tune

about Glork's reaction to BM attacking Guardian early because of the pressure from Yos. Why did Guardian say there was nothing to comment on? There has been plenty to comment on...

Albert B. Rampage

= neutral, leaning protown, not the greatest play so far, though, WHOA. Why does he want a claim from someone he doesn't even think is worth lynching yet?

WTF is wrong with him, he's soooo scummy now.

Why is he defaulting to more experienced players? What if those experienced players he is relying on are scum?

Giving your own opinions are important, because you don't know who to trust...unless you are scum...

You haven't touched or analyzed their play

AT ALL

since. And you're dinking around on me. If I die and turn up town, you're going to get DESTROYED tomorrow. Get it together, man, or keep up the crap play if you're scum.

mFOS: MoS

It doesn't seem like bussing to me, but I want to keep my eye on him.

I might as well pull this vote out of my pocket and give you all a little something to go on.

Vote: YogurtBandit

[inHimshallibe]

Heh, I think I may have just become the chaff I keep advocating for us to clear away.

What hoop can I jump through now so we can avoid a silly wagon on me?

I'd like you to explain, from a strictly theoretical mafia-stratagy sense, if and when it is a good idea to lynch a claimed doctor on day 2.

Have I really not said this? I really don't want this to siderail discussion. Hmmm. As it seems some votes toward me depend on this, and I'm not going to go back and check, here is the reasoning I can think of off the top of my head:

I'm pretty certain that, historically, doc claims are by far the second-highest claim (after townie) mafia make. They're also the easiest to work around as far as power roles go.

When a person claims doc, they may as well be killed, because we don't want WIFOM running rampant through the game. Take out the problems that would hinder endgame now, so endgame is easier, you see? This also accounts for what I said in the first statement of this quote.

If they are faking, any real doctors don't have to reveal themselves early (you asked me for reasons on Day 2), which is especially crucial in this game. If we had two doctors, all of them could be outed right now. Thankfully, no one else has spoken up, and it needs to stay that way.

Then, after you're finished that, I want you to explain why you felt the need to tell Guardian that he was "full of it" for saying he was going to be away and asking to hear more from you. Because, from my point of view, it looks like you were just trying to goad him into a response, and disptie the fact that his response ("inHim, you are ridiculous. Really." and "If you are town, seriously, stop being so dumb...") was actally rather mild considering the provication you set up, you then used it to try and accuse him of an "Appeal to emotion". That whole set of posts looks like you trying to set up a noob trap, and I don't like it.

The "full of it" response was not a goad; I was a little dumbfounded when he "called me out" 'cause, you know, I had been posting and presented what I thought on Guardian at the time (I had more later, as you can see), and he seems to bypass all this and wants "more." It's all in the angle you take my attacks, so if you think I was goading Guardian into a "noob trap," I can't really change your perspective unless you believe what I just posted. Another thing: I don't consider Guardian to be a "noob" anyways, so now I'm becoming more paranoid about Yos.

[Yosarian2]

Have I really not said this? I really don't want this to siderail discussion. Hmmm. As it seems some votes toward me depend on this, and I'm not going to go back and check, here is the reasoning I can think of off the top of my head:

I'm pretty certain that, historically, doc claims are by far the second-highest claim (after townie) mafia make. They're also the easiest to work around as far as power roles go.

When a person claims doc, they may as well be killed, because we don't want WIFOM running rampant through the game. Take out the problems that would hinder endgame now, so endgame is easier, you see? This also accounts for what I said in the first statement of this quote.

That's terrible, terrible logic. Yes, doc claims aren't that unusal coming from scum, but I'd still say that when I've seen a doc claim in the past they were telling the truth more often then not. Later on in the game, sure, if someone claimed doc late game, you'd want to kill him. But at this point in the game, if he is a doc, the mafia simply can't afford to leave him alive; after all, if a cop claims and a doc is alive, the cop is guarenteed to get at least one more investiagation and live to the next day, forcing the scum to kill the doc then instead. Unless you have some way to be very, very sure he's scum, lynching a claimed doc this early in the game is terrible town stratagy.

If they are faking, any real doctors don't have to reveal themselves early (you asked me for reasons on Day 2), which is especially crucial in this game. If we had two doctors, all of them could be outed right now. Thankfully, no one else has spoken up, and it needs to stay that way.

Well, yeah, any doctor would have to be pretty darn stupid to counter-claim a doc claim in a game when there was known to be "0-2 docs". In fact, that's one of the main reasons scum claim doc, is to get the real doc to counter-claim, and as that clearly does not apply this game.

Any scum claiming doc this early would be guarenteed dead before endgame, one way or the other. So, between that and the fact that a counterclaim is almost certanly not going to happen, I really don't see scum claiming doc this early.

The "full of it" response was not a goad; I was a little dumbfounded when he "called me out" 'cause, you know, I had been posting and presented what I thought on Guardian at the time (I had more later, as you can see), and he seems to bypass all this and wants "more."

Well, you could have just, you know, said that. From my point of view, it really looks like by just putting a one-line rather insulting response there, you were just trying to get him to react emotionally so you'd have more ammo to get him lynched.

It's all in the angle you take my attacks, so if you think I was goading Guardian into a "noob trap," I can't really change your perspective unless you believe what I just posted. Another thing: I don't consider Guardian to be a "noob" anyways, so now I'm becoming more paranoid about Yos.

Eh. He's been playing forum maifa for, what, about 3 months? He tends to react emotionally a lot and make a lot of typcial noob-scum tells that get him lynched a lot. I don't mean "noob" in any kind of way that's supposed to be insulting, I'm just discribing his playstyle and his weakness, and I think you're trying to take avantage of them to get someone who I know honestly think is a doctor lynched.

[Glork]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

Not particularly.

[AutumnEvenings]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

Not particularly.

*shrug*

unvote: ManaSpryte, FoS: ManaSpryte, Vote: Glork

According to my count, that gives us:

3 votes for Guardian (BattleMage, ManaSpryte, Shteven)
2 votes for Glork (InHim, AutumnEvenings)
1 vote for ManaSpryte (Guardian)
1 vote for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck)
1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)

7 players have not voted: Billy Twilight, Glork, Jack, MrBuddyLee, Sarcastro, TCS, Yogurt Bandit.

[Glork]

Shteven, have you nothing to say about Guardian's claim?

Glork, have you nothing to say about what I asked you?

<3

Not particularly.

*shrug*

unvote: ManaSpryte, FoS: ManaSpryte, Vote: Glork

*shrug* indeed. I don't feel the need to comment on it at this time.


EDIT: Oh. Those questions at the end of your post. I forgot those were there when I glanced at your post earlier. Yeah, I'll at least answer those:
1) Billy's probably protown
2) Sarc could very well be scum, though I haven't yet taken a very close look at him.
3) Eh... ManaSpryte and his predecessors have given us less to work with. I've found some of Yos' behavior suspect, but I personally find it best to wait on Yos for the time being, mainly because I think that his alignment will become more clear as the body count rises. So I guess I'd lynch ManaSpryte.
4) If Shteven is Mafia, I would expect his partners to have mostly stayed away from commenting on him. I honestly couldn't pick out a name at this point; I am *VERY* out-of-touch with this game right now. I don't see inHim as being his partner, partly because of the manner in which inHim has defended Shteven. I think that inHim-scum would leave enough trace of doubt to convert to Throw Under The Bus Mode if need be.

[Glork]

Also, AE, your VC is off. I've been voting Shteven for a while now.

[AutumnEvenings]

You're right--that was a horrible count; I left out the Shteven votes entirely. I had fun voting you--always nice making people do what I ask. :p Anyway,

unvote: Glork; (re)vote: ManaSpryte

.

I think that gives us:

4 votes for Shteven (Glork, Jack, Sarcastro, TCS)
3 votes for Guardian (BattleMage, ManaSpryte, Shteven)
2 votes for Yogurt Bandit (Billy Twilight, HackerHuck)
2 votes for ManaSpryte (Guardian, AutumnEvenings)
1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)
1 vote for Glork (InHim)

2 players have not voted: MrBuddyLee, Yogurt Bandit.

[Shteven]

Glork, do you have any response to my post 1709? You know, the one with about 5 examples of me having already answered the question that you recently asked me?

Inhim/Yos's recent exchange confuses me. Not one way or the other, but it just seems vague and confusing.

I think HackerHuck has a valid point about active lurkers. Can't hurt to look at a few more people today

[Jack]

I'm-not-glork fos: shteven pattern

What the hell does this mean?

Glork, do you have any response to my post 1709? You know, the one with about 5 examples of me having already answered the question that you recently asked me?

That post looks like something scum would come up with because they can't find something actually suspicious.

[ManaSpryte]

I'm sorry, Work has been very busy. I will read over what I missed and post. AE, Why am I so suspicious to you? I do think that Guardian is lying about his doctor claim. Here's a quickey before I read up.

I've decided to do some fun digging for guardian quotes...these should be simple enough:

Post 468, page 19:

YB, to be honest, my logic was hypocritical and scummy as hell. :[. I need to take a step back from this game, I will think and post later tonight.

Certainly takes a bit more effort to plan a strategy for scum, after all, so many people to fool...
Post 609:

Also, I would like to note that I think all the arguments made that claimed Guardian was a hypocrite (even though you tricked him into believing it himself) as bullshit. TCS attacked BM for being scummy on purpose, and then did it himself. THAT is hypocrisy. Guardian attacked TCS for his hypocritical actions. He did not have a problem with people acting scummy on purpose, just those who preach against it then don't follow their own advice. That is NOT being a hypocrite.

Note this is mastermind of sin, aka, our only confirmed scum. Guardian replies, fully quoting the above post, and then adds (Post 621):

Well, the thing is, I was acting scummy on purpose. Then I said that TCS acting scummy on purpose himself and preaching against BM doing so is hypocritical. So, I was acting scummy on purpose myself, and chastising someone for chastising someone for acting scummy on purpose. So, me acting scummy on purpose wasn't hypocritical, it was me attacking TCS, when the attack on TCS itself was the same behavior that I was attacking TCS for. If I am still wrong on this and Glork tricksy'd me, let me know. Thanks for defending me though <3.

Which I think is indicating a pretty good Guardian/MoS connection, and there's a lesser link to Glork as well.

So the summary is he knows he's scum, and he's linked to our good friends MoS/Glork, also scum.

Who acts scummy on purpose?

:ahem:

WHY IS THERE A WAGON ON AN UN-COUNTERED DOCTOR?

unvote, vote:Shteven

So what i'm getting is that you can act scummy the whole game, Claim to be a doc and everyone should say "Oh man he's a doctor, Let's forget he was acting like scum the whole time."

Not going to change my vote

FOS: Shteven

FOS: TCS

[Battle Mage]

i'm going to reread some of this game soon.

[BillyTwilight]

Sorry guys, I let this game slip off my radar. Apologies.

...
I might as well pull this vote out of my pocket and give you all a little something to go on.

Vote: YogurtBandit

You must have missed the memo; you know, the one that said we don't pursue or otherwise look at one of the scummiest players in the game who was 1 vote from being lynched on day 1 because the guy that we

did

lynch came up town. [/bitter sarcasm]

Anyway, on a quick reread I really don't like Shteven. For the present I am content to let the Guardian claim work itself out, and I can't understand some people's extreme desire to lynch him. I don't know if I particularly believe his claim, but odds are he won't survive more than a couple of nights, and leaving him alive drawing connections to other living players will give us a lot more info if he is killed later. One thing that really bothers me about Shteven's stance is that he originally backed off Guardian, then (as Guardian has already pointed out) switched right back to a vote of Guardian, as if he forgot that he was supposed to be waiting to see what happened to Guardian in the night phase. Couple that with continuously going after Glork for baseless reasons and otherwise inserting what I consider to be confusing gibberish in the thread gives an

unvote, Vote: Shteven

. Still don't like inHim's play and my FoS there stands. ManaSpryte simply doesn't have enough content to draw a conclusion about. Hopefully tonight I will be able to give a brief write up of the remaining players and how I feel about them.

BTW, can we please manage to keep day 2 from going 50+ pages as well?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

IDK, I kind of think it would be cool to play a game so long that a separate thread has to be made for later days.