Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mgm]

I'm afraid I'll spent significant amounts of time in the kitchen today. Not sure if I'll post today. Definitely back tomorrow. I intend to address Fritzler's posts at a bare minimum.

[Mgm]

CES dies as scumfather. Glork isn't on the wagon.

It was clear Glork was intended to lynch CES (even though he could've changed his mind), I just did something he never expected by dropping the hammah vote.

[Mgm]

MBL, your alternate theory would depend on me flat-out TELLING FRITZ THAT I KNEW HE WAS THE COP. Can you find

ANY

rationale for me to do that as scum?

No, the theory that Fritz tried to make it look like you were the cop doesn't require any such thing.

You did tell Fritz you were onto him and he appears to have picked up on it. It's stupid for a townie, it's incomprehensible for a scumbag to do. Neither makes sense, but we both know scum sometimes do something odd.

[Mgm]

D6 Glork has picked his target for the day and clearly done his planning overnight. He explains his push to lynch me as a metagame he's picked up on, which proves to be totally invalid. He votes me five days in. Then another amazing shift:

vote: Patrick

Needless to say, Mgm, I've got my heart set on lynching MBL right now.

Glork has seemed significantly more scummy this game, but there's probably a 60% chance he's been investigated.

unvote.

I don't know who I want to lynch anymore.

So at 6am Glork's heart is set on voting MBL. At the first sign that there's a chance at a three vote consensus on Patrick, and only twelve hours later, Glork's gone from "heart set" to "don't know".

Now he's back on me.

First you are deadset on lynching MBL and then you unvote at the end of the same RL day. What happened for you to change your mind so soon?

[Glork]

Sorry, but whether it's 40% or 60% or 50% at this point, it's just not at all certain that Fritz investigated you. I'm taking many considerations into account when making my decision, and that's just one of them. Voting records, misstatements, inconsistencies, nightkill choices, the opinions of the deceased, and metagaming--they all factor in.

I'm sorry, but knowing how certain you are that Fritz investigated me is more relevant than ANYTHING ELSE today, if you're thinking of voting me otherwise. You openly stated that

IN SPITE OF MY BEHAVIOR

, you believed that it was

LIKELY

that Fritz had investigated me. And yet now you're going against this

SIXTY PERCENT CHANCE THAT I AM GUARANTEED INNOCENT

because you can't see any other way out of your current predicament.

Seriously. If you think my behavior is scummy (which you obviously do), you

MUST

address the Fritz-investigation issue, if you are pro-town. You did earlier, and you stated that it was MORE LIKELY THAN NOT that I am CONFIRMED INNOCENT. You seem to be skirting and downplaying it as much as humanly possible, which is partly why I am choosing to focus on it.

The fact that you're trying to ride my genuine uncertainty on the issue to a mislynch is just one more thing to pile on the heap of "unreasonable things Glork probably wouldn't have done if he were town."

ps. I guess you'd rather change the subject to cop confirmations than address the analysis posts to which I just gave my Saturday.

No, no, no. In endgame, regardless of alignment, a player is going to use a sticking point to try to prove their innocence. I have no idea why you say I "probably wouldn't" do this as pro-town. In Mini 358 (I think that was the number -- I can double-check later), in endgame, I tried to convince the other two players to just vote each other and let me decide, even though I understood that there was evidence against me. I was protown there. Your claim that I "probably wouldn't" try to prove my innocence as town is

complete and utter bullshit

. And I think you *know* that.

MBL, your alternate theory would depend on me flat-out TELLING FRITZ THAT I KNEW HE WAS THE COP. Can you find

ANY

rationale for me to do that as scum?

In retrospect, I can't see any rationale for you doing that as town OR scum. You pretty much outed the guy, you admitted to it in your quote below, and I'm surprised so many people missed it:

The ":knowstuff: [/Fritz]" post was a signal to Fritz that I knew he was the Cop. I'm reasonably sure he picked up on it.

More correctly, your post was a signal to everyone, including the three scumbags, that you knew Fritz was the Cop. Why would you do such a reckless, retarded thing as town? Granted, many of us missed it, but it would only take one scumbag to notice. Or, more likely, you weren't worried about hinting openly because you're not protown.

I will admit that I made a mistake in the way I did it. As I have stated *multiple* times, I was trying to make it seem like I was a cop. I figured a ":knowstuff:" comment would hint to everyone that I had information, and hopefully that I was just mimicking Fritz for laughs. I screwed up there, bigtime. But my protown rationale has already been stated: I wanted Fritz to know I knew he was the cop, and I wanted everyone else to think I was a Cop.

Your "you [as hypothetical scum] don't have to worry about hinting" statement is also complete trash. I *would* have to worry about hinting; whether somebody would come out and state that they were onto Fritz, especially

BEFORE

killing him, has already been discussed extensively. It makes ZERO sense to do so. Furthermore, we already know that CES claimed to have not noticed Fritz's tells, and he did *NOT* hint as such, yet he was scum.

Bottom line: I have given protown rationale for making that statement. You have not given scum rationale for making that statement. Like MGM said, it was

STUPID

form me to do, but as scum, it would have been

INCOMPREHENSIBLE

. I'm sorry, sir, but you fail miserably.


-----------------

First you are deadset on lynching MBL and then you unvote at the end of the same RL day. What happened for you to change your mind so soon?

I did an analysis on Patrick, made Post 2035, and then I felt much less sure about my vote for MBL.
Since then, MBL's behavior (and my thoughts on that post by Patrick, which you

STILL

have yet to address) have re-convinced me that MBL is scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

you're going against this

SIXTY PERCENT CHANCE THAT I AM GUARANTEED INNOCENT

because you can't see any other way out of your current predicament.

If I was scum in a predicament I imagine I'd just vote Patrick considering, you know, he's the guy our confirmed innocent is voting for?

Your claim that I "probably wouldn't" try to prove my innocence as town is

complete and utter bullshit

.

Misrepresentation. I claim that you wouldn't try to

bully

me into changing my vote by calling me scummy for my uncertainty.

it was

STUPID

form me to do, but as scum, it would have been

INCOMPREHENSIBLE

. I'm sorry, sir, but you fail miserably.

WIFOM from the guy who bragged to Zindaras on Page 11 about how absurd Glork plays. I suppose I failed miserably by thinking you were scum for trying to lynch me on Page 2 of Space Monkeys?

To be honest, one of the biggest things that bothers me about Patrick is that he's seen you as protown all game. I can't fathom that.

[Glork]

you're going against this

SIXTY PERCENT CHANCE THAT I AM GUARANTEED INNOCENT

because you can't see any other way out of your current predicament.

If I was scum in a predicament I imagine I'd just vote Patrick considering, you know, he's the guy our confirmed innocent is voting for?

No. If you do that, we end up no-lynching (or Mgm changes and you die). If you kill Mgm, you're very likely dead. If you kill me, you already know that Mgm is susceptible to a vote-change based on night actions, and he would seriously question why he was left alive. I think that your only play is to try to stir up the muck, and that's exactly what you're doing here.

Your claim that I "probably wouldn't" try to prove my innocence as town is

complete and utter bullshit

.

Misrepresentation. I claim that you wouldn't try to

bully

me into changing my vote by calling me scummy for my uncertainty.

I am not trying to bully you into anything.
I am trying to show that, because you said you are ready to vote somebody that you think is MOST LIKELY CONFIRMED INNOCENT, you are

SCUM

. There's no bullying involved. You are scum, and I am trying to show it by pointing out that no protown player in their right mind would vote for somebody who they felt was AT LEAST SIXTY PERCENT LIKELY TO BE INNOCENT.

Honestly. I don't know how many more times I need to say that.

it was

STUPID

form me to do, but as scum, it would have been

INCOMPREHENSIBLE

. I'm sorry, sir, but you fail miserably.

WIFOM from the guy who bragged to Zindaras on Page 11 about how absurd Glork plays. I suppose I failed miserably by thinking you were scum for trying to lynch me on Page 2 of Space Monkeys?

To be honest, one of the biggest things that bothers me about Patrick is that he's seen you as protown all game. I can't fathom that.

I can... you know that our playstyles clash, but that does not mean that my playstyle clashes with other players. Patrick is savvy and intelligent enough to be able to

tell

the difference between protown Glork and scum Glork. There are certain things that I

only

have EVER done as protown, and I have done them in this game. Among what he mentioned were the lengthy and overdetailed stream-of-consciousness analysis of the entire game, and my "it's you or me, and one of us is going down" attitude.

The Space Monkeys situation is different in that I

knew

everybody else thought they were scum, and I found it significantly possible that somebody would take the gamble to hammer you straight away. It was worth laying the bait out there in that game, because there was a *HUGELY* significant mechanic-difference that I knew would affect the play of each and every protown player.

[Glork]

Also, @ you calling WIFOM on me. That coming from the same guy who said it was "difficult" to avoid using circular logic, "especially in endgame," when it clearly is not.


You have at least three times used WIFOM to deny evidence pointing to you.
1) Thesp's death, and whether it points to you or not.
2) Whether Glork was taking the "easy route" to victory.
3) Just now, with the incomprehensibility of my behavior as scum.

Interesting that you're okay with MGM using WIFOM to say "I don't believe MBL would have killed me," but you reject "I don't believe scum would tell Fritz they knew about him before killing him" based on... WIFOM.

Your entire case is constantly based on "I claim to think you're scummy, so I'm going to cram the evidence to fit what I want everyone to believe." Everything that fits with your conclusion is okay. Everything that doesn't is WIFOM.

[Glork]

Misrepresentation. I claim that you wouldn't try to bully me into changing my vote by calling me scummy for my uncertainty.

Also, claiming that I'm bullying you "by calling [you] scummy for [your] uncertainty" is crap. You've stated that you are ready to vote for me. That sounds pretty damned CERTAIN to me. You're CERTAIN that my behavior overrides the SIXTY PERCENT chance that I'm town. You're certain enough to state your willingness gamble on a less than forty percent chance that you're right.



If you're town, I'd like to play poker with you sometime. It seems you enjoy throwing all the chips in the pot when you know you're likely to lose.

[MrBuddyLee]

Based on yours and Patrick's behavior, my gut tells me you're the one who's likely to be scum, Glork. And at this point it's probably a 75% hunch, based on gut instinct alone. Patrick has done some things I see as inconsistent, but if I squint my eyes I can maybe see them as mistakes made by lazy town. Your play on the other hand reeks of manipulation and posturing. I'll admit a big part of my decision will involve guilt--who would I feel worse about mislynching if I'm wrong? Right now if I lynch Patrick and he turns up town I'll feel a ton of regret because I KNEW it was you not him. If I lynch you as town I'll be pissed but I'll also feel that to some extent you brought it on yourself. And despite all your squirming, I'm still thinking you're going to come up scum whether or not anyone else decides to vote for you.

You played hard and loose with the facts all game, you considered switching to Patrick when it might have gotten you the mislynch you need to win and now you're moving back to your best chance of survival. That's what I see.

You keep making digs at my intelligence, which is amusing. The fact remains that what I called WIFOM is absolutely WIFOM--you are trying to get us to believe you wouldn't do something ridiculous and risky as scum. And then you try to pretend like the only reason you acted ridiculous and risky as scum in Space Monkeys is because of the mechanic? Nonsense--it's your schtick across most of your games now. You tried to do the same thing to me as scum in SpeedyKQ's game.

Glork and Tamuz are on the lynch. That's really all the explanation you need.
Like I said, we're in consensus now. It's a done deal, really.

I also reread your play in Space Monkeys again and amidst the careless votes and throwaway statements you said this:

I can say with the utmost confidence that there is no other player who can get more out of my posts to get a good read on me (than Zindaras).

Zindy found you scummy D1, townish D2 and scummy again D3. If you were town, wouldn't the person who can read you best in da world pick up on that?

Finally, I spit out a 60% number as a rough estimate on whether Fritz investigated you or not--at the time it felt slightly more likely than not. I did that right after reading all the posts from games I found where he was a cop. He has dropped a lot of hints in the past. His posts pointing to a Thesp investigation are unambiguous. His posts pointing to a possible Glork investigation are much less so. In the face of your flamingly scummy play this game, am I going to make my voting decision based on my uncertain read of one post by Fritzler? No way. Sure, the math adds up if I want to play the pure numbers. Approximating:

(.6 innocent investigation)+.4(.25 Patrick's scum) = .7 Glork's town
.3 Patrick's town

But I'd weight my certainty on those factors because I'm much more confident in my read of you over six months than I am in my read of one Fritzler post. In the end, numbers don't do the situation justice. Patrick reads less like Patrickscum in this game than you read like Glorkscum.

[MrBuddyLee]

If the scumteam was {Patrick, CDB, CES}

CDB listed Patrick as one of his two townies and defended him from Thesp once.
CES FOSed Patrick once and had him on his "maybe scum" list with me on D4.

CDB has hardly said anything all game and what he has said is not that insightful.

Defends CDB from an Mgm attack:

I think it's possible that CDB is just being used as the scum patsy here.

Defends CDB from Thesp:

You're case against CDB is reaching and of roughly the same quality as your case against Andrew was.

CDB: Slightlybad. It seems now that he must be deliberately lurking. Incorrectly applied WIFOM.

Patrick was late to the CDB wagon and afterwards cleared Thesp of a tie to CDB and suggested ties between Mgm and Zindy and CDB.

I'm not really feeling the CES wagon.

CES: I admit I'm partially relying on others who know him better. Seems bandwagonish. Not sure how he might play as scum.

CES: Meh. I dunno, though I don't understand the fanatisism for lynching Thesp which has been going on for a while now.

CES is being annoying, spammy, not making sense etc. I'm not sure what to say. It could be a way of avoiding actually contributing any content I suppose.

Defenses of CES:

His attack on Thesp seems ludicrously prolonged and stubborn. I find it hard to see why he would do it as scum in this situation, when it's obviously not getting anywhere. I personally think the case against Zindaras in stronger than the one against CES, but it's interesting how the CES wagon seems to grow far more easily. MBL--mind explaining your vote on CES more? Do you have any metagame on him that makes you think he'd be more likely to act retarded like this if he was scum?

I'm not sold on CES being town, but still don't like the wagon on him, as it felt almost too easy to be true. The CES wagon seems to have been more successful than the Zindy one, despite the fact CES seems the less scummy of the two.

Pre-modkill, defense:

MBL, it's strange that you are voting CES and not Zindaras, since Zindaras seems to be your top suspect percentage wise.

Post-modkill, suspicions:

You have some good observations there MBL. My gut feeling is you're wide of the mark in your Glork assessment but I am getting more suspicious of CES.

Patrick joins the BM wagon instead of the CES wagon.

Busing D5:

Currently if I had to have a stand alone top suspect, it's probably CES.

Attacks Mgm for essentially what Patrick's been doing all game:

My gut says Mgm is trying to ease his way onto busing CES after a whole game of defending him.

I'll follow through on what I said I'd do though and

Vote: CES

. Hopefully the game won't be over when I wake up.

[MrBuddyLee]

1) Is CDB more likely to hug his partners or try to distance from them? He defended Patrick, attacked Glork weakly.
2) Patrick defended both scum until they were under significant suspicion, then followed others late onto both scumwagons.
3) Patrick played a significant role in keeping Zindaras and Nightfall above CES in the public eye.
4) Patrick was on Mgm most of D2, Zindaras most of D3-4. Flipped to Nightfall at deadlines before switching back to Zindaras.
5) All three scum were never on the same target.

[Glork]

His posts pointing to a possible Glork investigation are much less so. In the face of your flamingly scummy play this game, am I going to make my voting decision based on my uncertain read of one post by Fritzler? No way. Sure, the math adds up if I want to play the pure numbers. Approximating:

(.6 innocent investigation)+.4(.25 Patrick's scum) = .7 Glork's town
.3 Patrick's town

But I'd weight my certainty on those factors because I'm much more confident in my read of you over six months than I am in my read of one Fritzler post. In the end, numbers don't do the situation justice. Patrick reads less like Patrickscum in this game than you read like Glorkscum.

No, no, no, NO!

You stated that your certainty of Fritz investigating me was

IN SPITE OF MY SCUMMY PLAY

. Your 60% was

AFTER HAVING TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT SIX MONTHS OF READING ME

. Look at what you said:

Glork has seemed significantly more scummy this game, but there's probably a 60% chance he's been investigated.

I've been scummy, BUT (even then) you think I was investigated.
Logically speaking, you cannot feasably vote for me based on what you said.



Like I indicated before, you are perfectly free to rescind your earlier statement, but you've got to give me a pretty goddamned good explanation as to why you would, considering you had already taken my play into account when making that projection. Saying "your scumminess overrides it" without substantial further explanation is not good enough, because earlier "my scumminess" didn't override it at all.

[Patrick]

Tired after work, but I'm sure I can put together something coherent here.

I have to agree with Glork that MBL's stances on the possible Fritz investigation are inconsistent. I will reiterate that I didn't like the way MBL moved more towards me after Mgm voted me, citing the 60% figure, claiming to have just metagamed Fritz and "discovered" that Fritz is obvious as cop. But yeah, in general 60% chance of someone being confirmed innocent seems difficult to override.

you're going against this SIXTY PERCENT CHANCE THAT I AM GUARANTEED INNOCENT because you can't see any other way out of your current predicament.

If I was scum in a predicament I imagine I'd just vote Patrick considering, you know, he's the guy our confirmed innocent is voting for?

This has been an interesting aspect of this endgame for me, and in some ways has been keeping me from voting. MBL moved towards me when Mgm voted me, but when Glork did his analysis of me, MBL attacked him immediately, when it seems the easier route would have been to keep sitting on the fence. At this point he's strongly going after Glork, which seems a harder route for scum to take. If he came after me, he'd need to persuade Glork to switch to me. If he wants Glork lynched, he needs to persuade both myself and Mgm, and Mgm is on record saying he thinks Glork is 99% confirmed or something similar.

That said, simply switching over to me wouldn't be easy to do out of the blue, at least not in a game of this standard. It's possible MBL is scum still trying to keep me in doubt by semi defending me, and aiming for a stalemate >> deadline >> no lynch. The prospect of a no lynch scares me alot. I'd rather resolve this today.
------------------------------------------

To be honest, one of the biggest things that bothers me about Patrick is that he's seen you as protown all game. I can't fathom that.

I can... you know that our playstyles clash, but that does not mean that my playstyle clashes with other players. Patrick is savvy and intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between protown Glork and scum Glork. There are certain things that I only have EVER done as protown, and I have done them in this game. Among what he mentioned were the lengthy and overdetailed stream-of-consciousness analysis of the entire game, and my "it's you or me, and one of us is going down" attitude.

Well... I *think* I have an idea of how Glork behaves as town, but it might fly out of the window if he ends up being scum in this game. I will add again for MBL's benefit that I haven't blindly trusted him, but actually think I've correctly discerned his alignment. If it bothers you, I have behaved in similar ways towards certain people in other games: Towards Glork in that mini he mentioned earlier, where he was town (which is a weaker example since I was inexperienced), in LO2 I had a consistent and correct protown read on PJ the entire game from start to finish, and similarly with PJ in Old Maid. It's not something unusual for me.

I see the topic of WIFOM cropping up one or two times, so MBL, question for you: Mgm thinks that the Thesp nightkill makes it unlikely you're scum, and gives a load of WIFOM reasoning. Do you actually think that the Thesp nightkill should make you less of a suspect today? If so, why? I think you might have touched on it today but I'd like to see your reply here.

Zindy found you scummy D1, townish D2 and scummy again D3. If you were town, wouldn't the person who can read you best in da world pick up on that?

I'm not so sure Zindaras is the best authority for discerning Glork's alignment in this game, even if he is reputed to be good at reading Glork. He wasn't exactly on top of his game. He did suggest Glork could be busing CDB, but then later seemed to doubt himself. His very last opinion given was that both Glork and MBL were scummy for something that happened way back on day 1.

[MrBuddyLee]

Interesting that you're okay with MGM using WIFOM to say "I don't believe MBL would have killed me."

Mgm thinks that the Thesp nightkill makes it unlikely you're scum, and gives a load of WIFOM reasoning. Do you actually think that the Thesp nightkill should make you less of a suspect today? I think you might have touched on it today.

Actually guys, I'm not OK with Mgm's logic there and I never said I was. Here's the extent of my comments on the nightkill of Thesp, from a summary of events post at the start of the day:

Thesp NKed instead of Mgm N5--Mgm found Patrick more suspect than Glork, Thesp found Patrick thoroughly pro-town.

I gave it no further analysis because this late in the game, it'd be too easy for scum to win if we always base our votes on what NK would be good for what scum. They could just do the opposite every time and coast to victory. Mgm, not lynching me is the correct choice, but that particular reason is a dangerous one to rely on--it WILL bite you sooner or later.

[MrBuddyLee]

Here's another reason why I'm not so hot on Patrick as town. I've successfully spotted scum in the past by looking for lack of curiosity in posts. To be honest, Glork, you've shown very little curiosity today, but Patrick's shown even less. You're both more interested in steering votes. Here's the question count:

glork:
asked mgm 9
asked patrick 3
asked mbl 18

patrick:
asked glork 1
asked mgm 19
asked mbl 3

Questions to Mgm are all attempts to sway his vote, not expressing curiosity about alignments in the least.

The quality of the questions is very relevant. Here are Patrick's questions:

To Glork:

Any chance you could articulate how CES's play looked protown?

To MBL:

Are you saying you didn't know that Fritz can be an obvious cop before Glork mentioned it?

Now you suddenly say there is a 60% chance Glork was investigated. What caused this change of heart?

Did you get anything out of this (checking old posts for very-townish Patrick posts)?

That's it. The extent of Patrick's curiosity.

Here are Glork's:

To Patrick:

Why did you drop the CDB-hate altogether and decide to audible to Glork?

Patrick, do you have any explanation to offer as to why you posted so incredibly little analysis on either CDB or CES during the early game?

Patrick: Is there any particular reason you have not placed your vote yet?

There are too many questions to me for me to enumerate, but I can break them down into two categories:

Good questions that seem to express curiosity about my alignment: 4

MBL: Why, exactly, did you choose not to hammer Thesp at the end of Day Two?

MBL: If you felt that CDB was actively lurking so hard, why didn't you choose to take any action, especially after he failed to change his ways after your initial comments towards him?

Suddenly MBL is all anti-CDB. What happened between last post and this one?

What specifically (posts, interations, attitudes) caused you to believe that Thesp was being opportunistic? Was it, by any chance, his proclaimed certainty

regarding his proclaimed scumbags?

Questions designed to persuade me Glork isn't scum: 14

Would you expect GlorkScum to take literally weeks to make the kind of turn that you have suggested?

do you think I have a history of "appearing thorough and even-headed"?

Can you find ANY rationale for me to do that as scum?

Do you, right now, believe that I am seeking the "easy route" to victory?

Patrick, if you are town, you thought Mgm+CES was the scumpair yesterday. When the sun came up today, you were forced to recognize your judgments had been wrong and completely reconsider your worldview. Yet you have not done the legwork, you've been lazy and focused on defending yourself rather than learning from your mistake (and reasoning out that Glork's the scumbag).

Glork, if you're town, you were also projecting CES+Mgm as your primary scumpair yesterday. You were wrong, and yet you haven't worked very hard to overcome your incorrect biases and learn the truth--that Patrick is scum.

Frankly, I think I've played a better game than either of you, making better reads on the whole, but for some reason one townie still finds me more suspect than the scumbag. It's frustrating, but there's not much I can do other than answer questions and try to trap the last scumbag into slipping up (or spot a previous slip-up, but I think pretty much everything's on the table at this point).

One of you is lazy town. The other is surprisingly lazy scum.

Glork, am I correct that you've made up your mind? Patrick, can you please give us a summary of where you currently stand?

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Patrick: 1 (Mgm)
MrBuddyLee : 1 (Glork)

Not voting: MrBuddyLee Patrick

4 alive means

3

to lynch!

[Patrick]

Patrick, if you are town, you thought Mgm+CES was the scumpair yesterday. When the sun came up today, you were forced to recognize your judgments had been wrong and completely reconsider your worldview. Yet you have not done the legwork, you've been lazy and focused on defending yourself rather than learning from your mistake (and reasoning out that Glork's the scumbag).

Glork, if you're town, you were also projecting CES+Mgm as your primary scumpair yesterday. You were wrong, and yet you haven't worked very hard to overcome your incorrect biases and learn the truth--that Patrick is scum.

No, I have not been lazy. Your definition of lazy or poor protown play here seems to be simply the fact that someone has come to the conclusion that you're scum. Simply repeating over and over that you're protown does make it so. An alternative intepretation of today's events is that both townies Patrick and Glork are closing on the last scumbag, while you're trying to bring up as much dirt as you possibly can on both. I think it's far from clear that your approach today has been more protown than either mine or Glork's.

Patrick, can you please give us a summary of where you currently stand?

See this... shows why a question counter may not be an entirely useful tool on it's own. You've just asked me a question to which the answer seems obvious. As I though I'd made clear, I lean towards you being scum. I mentioned in my last post why I haven't voted and I still hold onto some doubt.

[MrBuddyLee]

With all due respect, Patrick, your first real "suspicions" each day have been IH, Mgm, Zindaras Nightfall, and now me. 0-for-5. You were late to express suspicion of CDB and CES. Adele's investigation of Mgm appears to be the only reason you haven't lynched him already today. If you're not scum, you might consider doing town a favor and brushing up your scumhunting, because it hasn't helped us much this game.

You expect me to watch one of you/Glork botching this game and not ask you to try to do better? It's infuriating to sit here and get poked at by you two while you each ignore the other. Especially considering you two each ran a half-dozen innocents up to the gallows. Asking me a whopping three questions today and Glork one as your only two suspects remaining is the kind of thing you'll regret when Glork wins the Scummie for best mafia performance. If you're town.

[Mgm]

Glork, why have you been on the leading bandwagon each and every day of the game?

That's pretty much how I do thinks. Need I link to other games?

One or two would be nice. Are there any games where it didn't happen?

Also, Mgm, you still have not addressed my earlier posts. I am going to repost this YET AGAIN, because I'd really like a response one way or another:

MGM: My biggest outlying question right now would be for you to address this:

Mgm, could you post your thoughts on Post 1886:

Is there anything else you wanted to hear from the other players? Any specific questions, general thoughts/comments?

I'll let you read what parts you want to read and I wouldn't mind seeing Mgm's thing as well. Actually I would be pretty interested in seeing Mgm's thing.

** Comment on laziness from before: I don't think Thesp has been playing any lazier than normal, nor am I playing lazier than normal. In fact I've put more into this game than my average game. The laziness that bothers me is mostly CES. If I had one/two votes on me, especially from varying people, and with others expressing suspicion of me, I'd be freaking out and trying my hardest to convince people that I shouldn't be lynched and that they should take me out of quicklynch range. Maybe that reflects just different playstyle between me and CES rather than a possible different alignment, but it feels like he's acting in the same that ChannelDelibird was acting when we had nailed him.**

MBL's analysis today is pretty good, and looks fairly protown, but I know he's thorough as scum and I wouldn't put it past him to do it as scum as well as town. I think if he is protown then voting CES like that was not the cleverest idea in the world, but equally if he is scum with Mgm then it would also have been a really sloppy attempt to snatch victory when just waiting a day or two would have been completely safe.

The pairing that worries me the most (after CES/Mgm which is currently my top one) is actually CES/MBL rather than Mgm/MBL. I think I mentioned before that there seems to be alot of genuine friction between MBL and Mgm. MBL pushed Mgm hard day 1 when he wasn't a top candidate, and let's remember if Mgm is scum he's the godfather. Would a goon set out to bus the GF early? I could see a GF busing heavily at a pinch because he can't be touched by cops but a goon busing the GF seems risky when you don't know what the poweroles are. And again later, there just seems to be alot of genuine angst between them. I'm still not too happy with Mgm's opening to today, because it looked pre planned, and not at all how I felt starting the day, and apparently not how Glork (who I think is protown) felt at the start of the day, which may indicate a different mindset. Pre planned busing or pre planned attempt to frame MBL with a slightly off nightkill? Or just unusual playstyle bleh. Glork, if you have some link you can see between Mgm and MBL, other than MBL's vote for CES, then you might as well tell us. For MBL/CES though, there is some distance between them but not as much, could be contrived. I'm not going to worry that much about it right now because in this case lynching CES is absolutely fine anyway. If CES were to be lynched as a godfather, MBL is very likely the other scum.

Taking it one step at a time, CES seems like the best lynch to me. How worried are you about that MBL/Thesp pairing you were talking about before? Because I've taken it mainly that CES has been blowing steam, but again, if there's some link between them then now is the time, we might not get another chance. Thesp has seemed pretty genuinely protown to me for a while now though.

Note, Mgm, that this came after a post in which I said: "Patrick, you and I think we're pro-town, and the two of us are deciding today's lynch, so give me your opinions and I will take them into consideration."

Would you have expected PatrickScum to come back with a post that amounted to "CES is the lynch today" or would you have expected PatrickScum to attempt to convince me that MBL was the play for the way he pounced on CES? Keep in mind that, if Patrick/CES were the scumpair, Patrick could have jumped on MBL just as I did, gotten a mislynch on MBL, and ended the game right there and then.

You say that MBL's behavior towards CES yesterday makes no sense from a scum perspective. I've been thinking that Patrick's behavior yesterday makes no sense from a scum perspective, and I have proposed a scenario where MBLscum would pounce on CESscum just the way he did.

He seems to keep open a lot of options in this post and while he says it's not smart to bus the GF as scum, he goes and does it (which in my opinion would be a great strategy). I don't like how he sets up MBL for the next lynch when he says: "If CES were to be lynched as a godfather, MBL is very likely the other scum." Of course, if CES is the GF, Thesp and me are innocent. Was Glork's investigation a point back then? If it was, that might explain this particular line, although it brings us no closer to which of the two it is.

[Mgm]

and my "it's you or me, and one of us is going down" attitude.

Glork, if I remember correctly you gave someone an ultimatum earlier where you showed this "either lynch me or you"-attitude. Can you remind me what day that was and what player (or just tell me I'm completely hallucinating...)

[Patrick]

He seems to keep open a lot of options in this post and while he says it's not smart to bus the GF as scum, he goes and does it (which in my opinion would be a great strategy).

Um, I said that I wouldn't expect a goon to bus the GF very early in the game, and it made me think there wasn't an MBL/Mgm pairing. To say, basically, "Patrick thinks it's not smart to bus your GF" is a big oversimplification. And I see that you're assuming I'm scum again, by saying I bused the GF, as opposed to simply legitimately voting the GF as town.

I don't like how he sets up MBL for the next lynch when he says: "If CES were to be lynched as a godfather, MBL is very likely the other scum."

This amounted to nothing more than saying what my biggest suspected scumgroups were. I had Mgm/CES first, MBL/CES second. You're trying to read too much into this.

[Mgm]

You played hard and loose with the facts all game, you considered switching to Patrick when it might have gotten you the mislynch you need to win and now you're moving back to your best chance of survival. That's what I see.

Any vote that avoids three heads pointing the same way ensures a no lynch today which is the scum's best chance of survival. Voting Glork is pretty much a sure fire way to ensure a no lynch and your own survival today. If you can't get a mislynch, a no lynch is the second best option. To me, it seems you are doing exactly what you're accusing Glork of.

[Mgm]

Simply repeating over and over that you're protown does make it so.

Thanks for finally admitting it

[Mgm]

MBL, with your team analysis done, has it raised any more Patrick-suspicions with you? Lack of interest in CDB and CES, voting me for something he did himself most of the game...