Mini 1663: Rick and Morty Mafia (Game Over)

[Jingle]

What? Are we saying Scary Terry might be a realclaim? 'Cause I assumed that was a fakeclaim, given that Terry actively saves the protagonist's lives. And no, it makes perfect sense. El is a neighborizer, who can conditionally get a guilty on one player assuming it's not a red herring, which it could be. Heartless was a weak doc, which can get one guilty ever, with a setup with a miller (presumably kills the weak doc or there's no point) and a reflexive busdriver. There's a bunch of protectives with severe drawbacks. There's no way in hell we don't have some form of investigation at our disposal, and I don't buy weak doc and neighborizer as it.

Unless I'm secretly super protown which fits the flavor 0% then there's just not enough power claimed in town for Kthx to be scum, especially given role madness and scum probably having abilities themselves.

Now could you make towncases for Aristo and Lufan?

[Rainbowdash]

What? Are we saying Scary Terry might be a realclaim? 'Cause I assumed that was a fakeclaim, given that Terry actively saves the protagonist's lives. And no, it makes perfect sense. El is a neighborizer, who can conditionally get a guilty on one player assuming it's not a red herring, which it could be. Heartless was a weak doc, which can get one guilty ever, with a setup with a miller (presumably kills the weak doc or there's no point) and a reflexive busdriver. There's a bunch of protectives with severe drawbacks. There's no way in hell we don't have some form of investigation at our disposal, and I don't buy weak doc and neighborizer as it.

Character sure works well as a tracker doesn't he? Also I think they spent half of the episode trying to kill the protagonists before being tricked into helping them. Do you think Flames specifically got a tracker fakeclaim or what?

Also weak doc is a VERY strong role if used right (trying to target town), and unless mod switched things up they wouldn't be killed by a miller. We have investigative roles. Weak Cop + Specific character cop. That is not too much weaker than normal, especially if scum isn't all that strong role wise. Isnt a Weak Cop + Character Cop + Role Cop (which is essentially a normal cop by your claim) way too strong?

What if Flames flips Scary Terry? Would you at least agree that it would mean that kthnx should be vigged then? What about him targeting the role that fits perfectly with flavor instead of a questionable one? How does Xenon Bloom even work as a role cop?

Even *if* somehow Flames flips some random non-Terry character, how does that actually make the role cop more likely to be town? Like I said that makes three strong town investigators, like I have said, scum has quite a bit to gain from a role cop. Likely me. Possibly others we don't know about - remember that we already have a few connected roles.

Now could you make towncases for Aristo and Lufan?

Aristo is being locked down and given my role would have to be hurting scum to have made that move last night. I am more than fine calling him prob-town for that move. Whats the worst case? Scum eliminates my power and your power with their role?

Lufan is a vig, which is why he is killing kthnx tonight to prove that and confirm himself to be town. Scum wont have a vig. I have seen that once, in a very large game.

[Flames682]

Psst...

You better make plans if I flip who I say I am.

[Jingle]

What? Are we saying Scary Terry might be a realclaim? 'Cause I assumed that was a fakeclaim, given that Terry actively saves the protagonist's lives. And no, it makes perfect sense. El is a neighborizer, who can conditionally get a guilty on one player assuming it's not a red herring, which it could be. Heartless was a weak doc, which can get one guilty ever, with a setup with a miller (presumably kills the weak doc or there's no point) and a reflexive busdriver. There's a bunch of protectives with severe drawbacks. There's no way in hell we don't have some form of investigation at our disposal, and I don't buy weak doc and neighborizer as it.

Character sure works well as a tracker doesn't he? Also I think they spent half of the episode trying to kill the protagonists before being tricked into helping them. Do you think Flames specifically got a tracker fakeclaim or what?

Also weak doc is a VERY strong role if used right (trying to target town), and unless mod switched things up they wouldn't be killed by a miller. We have investigative roles. Weak Cop + Specific character cop. That is not too much weaker than normal, especially if scum isn't all that strong role wise. Isnt a Weak Cop + Character Cop + Role Cop (which is essentially a normal cop by your claim) way too strong?

What if Flames flips Scary Terry? Would you at least agree that it would mean that kthnx should be vigged then? What about him targeting the role that fits perfectly with flavor instead of a questionable one? How does Xenon Bloom even work as a role cop?

Even *if* somehow Flames flips some random non-Terry character, how does that actually make the role cop more likely to be town? Like I said that makes three strong town investigators, like I have said, scum has quite a bit to gain from a role cop. Likely me. Possibly others we don't know about - remember that we already have a few connected roles.

Now could you make towncases for Aristo and Lufan?

Aristo is being locked down and given my role would have to be hurting scum to have made that move last night. I am more than fine calling him prob-town for that move. Whats the worst case? Scum eliminates my power and your power with their role?

Lufan is a vig, which is why he is killing kthnx tonight to prove that and confirm himself to be town. Scum wont have a vig. I have seen that once, in a very large game.

Preface here, I'm very drunk.

In my experience good mods give fake claims that fit flavor, so no, I dont think that's unlikely.

Kiwis already proven to mod by the wiki and the wiki says that sometimes weak dies on miller targets.

And no. 1 shot cop and weak cop is perfectly fine in a role madness mini. El's role wasn't a cop, before scum chose not to claim Morty. Balance wise it was neutral utility.

Your logic on aristo is bs given that not doing exactly what he did was scumclaiming. I can agree that luf is not groupscum if two people die, but I'm not cool with saying he's outright town already. I agree he's not the lynch today, but neither is main.

And no. I'm solid balance wise that there's no fucking way that k and flames are both scum.

[d3x]

Thought...

@Mod- Does this setup follow NAR?

[d3x]

Well, Kthx Cop'ing me is not alignment indicative. The two of us have known each other iRL for a couple decades and I don't remember a single game where he's been a PR {Town or Scum} and hasn't Targeted me N1. While I agree that the choice was rather sub-par, considering the opportunity to crack the game further, there is vast precedent for him to check me out as soon as possible.

That said, if Flames flips Town, I'd bet pretty much everything that one of our remaining Investigative powers is Scum. I'd say that Elbirn is the most Town based on Claim alone. The sheer set of circumstances that would have to align for that to be a FakeClaim are astronomical. And if it's a real Scum Claim, there'd be no reason for Morty to remain silent, as he'd pretty much have to be Town.

PoE would thus leave Kthx.

I would contend that the flip side is true as well, tough. If Flames flips Scum, Kthx is all but ConfTown. I have no doubt that Flames is an actual Tracker, otherwise how would he know that RIP Guarded Elbirn? And we can be fairly certain that it wasn't just a shot at RIP to guarantee his death so that he can solidify the Tracker Claim, because the Mod's mistake with saying that Elbirn died. It basically becomes a cross Confirmation in my eyes.

@kj- Do you know if your Prediction works of you're JKed?

[Rainbowdash]

Shouldn't we just auto-vig kthnx if Flames flips Terry though? If that is what he really is, that means the role cop is completely useless in this game for town since scum either don't have or are not using fake claims

[Kthxbye]

I'm still really busy right now so this is mostly a prodge.

I will say however that I'm pretty sure the point of a Vig is to try and hit scum. I've only glanced over the thread, but yeah, not a fan of the suggestion of me being vig'ed. Wish I could go into more, but I'm off to work.

[Jingle]

WhAt? Ambiguous roles dont mean he can't be town. They mean that he's not as powerful as a full cop. I don't want him shot because he's town. Simple as that.

[Jingle]

No a fan of aris's disappearing act either.

[Rainbowdash]

Well, Kthx Cop'ing me is not alignment indicative. The two of us have known each other iRL for a couple decades and I don't remember a single game where he's been a PR {Town or Scum} and hasn't Targeted me N1. While I agree that the choice was rather sub-par, considering the opportunity to crack the game further, there is vast precedent for him to check me out as soon as possible.

Nah. I am a big fan of lynching players who are going out of their way to not follow optimal play. Especially when they are fairly scummy by themselves to start. He may as well have just thrown his role away with what he did. At best he is town who has shown unwillingness to cooperate with the rest of the town, and in a situation where there are a large number of clear or semi-clear players that he is not a part of, he needs to die.

WhAt? Ambiguous roles dont mean he can't be town. They mean that he's not as powerful as a full cop. I don't want him shot because he's town. Simple as that.

Again. Explain to me how a role cop is at all useful for town if scum are claiming their real characters. If Flames flips Terry, lufan is killing kthnx.

For that matter since you seem interested in flavor - explain how kthnx is what he really claimed. I somewhat actually remember that episode and I don't get how that flavor matches at all. Even if you want to argue flavor of being a "bad guy" he is a character that the protagonists left to die.

[Jingle]

Aristophanes:	vanillaice-r	[Scroopy Nooples]
Jingle:	visitor (unspecified neg utility?)	[Jerry]
Flames682:	tracker	[Scary Terry]
Heartless:	odd-night weak doc	[Beth]
Elbirn:	neighborizer (morty cop)	[Jessica]
Killerjester:	active dreamer (1x something)	[Goldenfold]
Kthxbye:	1x name cop	[Xenon Bloom]
lufan131:	1x bulletproof vig	[Snuffles/Snowball]
RIP:	miller bodyguard	[Lincler]
d3x:	self-targeting busdriver	[Rick]
Rainbowdash:	????? (unstoppable + scumtrolled)	[Meeseeks]
hi im Yakko:	motion detector	[Leonard]
Mainez:	1x jailkeeper	[Summer]

Terry is the only one who fits for a scumyeam. Bloom is literally ricks business partner, and there's nothing dark coalitiony about him. Tell me again how beth and summer are scum flavors, and I'll tell you exactly where your logic died.

As for xenon's flavor fitting flavorcop, that's a decent question for kthx. But the simple fact is that flames flipping scum clears kthx in my eyes. And I don't think you can make an argument to break that.

As Far as checking d3x, it wasn't the worst choice. Rick doesn't make sense as flavor for a dark coalition, meaning town, and the other investigatives which d3x was pointed at are high priority clears. Imagine d3x hitting flames. We might've have had a guilty and a living weak doc.

[Rainbowdash]

Again: Yes or No - If Flames flips Terry that means kthnx needs to be vigged because it means that there is no town utility to have a role cop.

I don't think I am ever going to see kthnx as town, and he is probably going to be dead one way or another by the end of the game. I just want him to die and prove lufan as town all at the same time. Also d3x check was the worst possible check except for me, unless you are now trying to argue that characters have no bearing on alignment, because who else could possibly have been a self-targeting bus driver than Rick? Target Aristo, target Mainz, target KJ, heck even targeting Flames makes more sense. He went with what was probably about the worst move he could make, is not in the least bit "cleared" so yes, I want him dead and will probably be voting him out the gate tomorrow and never moving my vote if I have the chance.

Who do you want lufan killing? Because Aristo and KJ are the only other player who makes even a remote amount of sense to kill for him, and we need him to kill ASAP to not only prove his role and confirm him as town but also to make it so we are back not needing a no lynch late in the game to bring numbers to odd.

"Not enough investigate power" is just a cop out. Weak cop - great role. Morty cop - well there is apparently another cop for a specific mafia member. JK - that becomes almost an investigator when there are lower number. Motion detector - that's an investigator. Are we really going to have a fifth role that is really strong like that? Doesn't it make sense for scum to have a role cop instead of town have a specific role cop and a role cop?

What has kthnx done that is remotely town?

Voted Jingle while creating a false dilemma between one of Heartless/Jingle have to be scum?
Entered the game with a bunch of fluff null reads?
That his entire case on Jingle was "he is being fake"?
That he is not paying attention to the reason anypony else voting Jingle but kept repeating his "fake" mantra?
That the entire reason he voted RIP was the miller claim?
That he tried to push a lufan wagon after the whole lynch that wasn't a lynch thing?
That he targeted one of the worst possible players with his action?
That he never mentioned Flames once?

I would actually like you to name some things he did that would possibly suggest he is town. Because even if I wanted to I would be hard pressed to actually make anything that resembles a decent town case on him. He is at best liability town due to his N1 action.

@lufan - If Flames flips the character Scary Terry you are shooting kthnx tonight to prove your role. If there is somehow a hammer without us having figured it out entirely for if he flips something else - you are still shooting kthnx tonight.

[d3x]

@Pony- I think you may have misunderstood me, and I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear. I'm saying that Kthx Cop'ing me is Null at best, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's Town. I'm perfectly fine with him eating a bullet Tonight. As I said, I think that we have too much by way of Claimed Investigative PRs. Hell, even if he is Town, he's doing nothing and is now a VT based on his 1shot Claim.

[d3x]

ffs, I forgot that this game allows 5 freaking days to go by without pods...

@Mod- Please answer my previous question and also prod anyone who hasn't posted in the last 48 hours.

[lufan131]

Yes, I will.

[Kthxbye]

Aristophanes:	vanillaice-r	[Scroopy Nooples]
Jingle:	visitor (unspecified neg utility?)	[Jerry]
Flames682:	tracker	[ Scary Terry ]
Heartless:	odd-night weak doc	[ Beth ]
Elbirn:	neighborizer (morty cop)	[Jessica]
Killerjester:	active dreamer (1x something)	[Goldenfold]
Kthxbye:	1x name cop	[Xenon Bloom]
lufan131:	1x bulletproof vig	[Snuffles/Snowball]
RIP:	miller bodyguard	[ Lincler ]
d3x:	self-targeting busdriver	[Rick]
Rainbowdash:	????? (unstoppable + scumtrolled)	[Meeseeks]
hi im Yakko:	motion detector	[ Leonard ]
Mainez:	1x jailkeeper	[Summer]

Sigh, just worked a 15 hour day and I have to come in here to tell you all how dumb your vig shot plan is. Awesome....

-First of all, I didn't want to have to claim this today, but I'm not 1 shot. Thank you Heartless for screwing the Good guys yet again.

-Secondly, you're whole idea that I need to eat a bullet is scummy as shit and based on Elbirn having a VERY specific investigate which is only an investigate if town due to the mass claim (and nobody claiming Morty) and Flames (who is confirmed scum if you aren't reading the thread) claimed tracker and that 3 investigative roles would be too many. Not only do you ignore that Flames is confirmed scum, but you also ignore that there are 4 protective roles claimed. Elbirn is damn near confirmed town BUT, that doesn't mean he's an investigative role in the least. It's very possible that town!Elbirn's claimed ability is nothing more than a red herring. There could simply be no Morty in the game at all. This is something I think you would have come to on your own since you think scum possibly didn't have to fake claim.

Side note to this. You mentioned that if Flames is the role he said he is (no actual proof of this), that would mean if you really think I'm scum with Flames, scum would have 2 investigative roles? You don't make sense. You find it hard to believe there are 3 investigative roles but easily believe if there are, that scum have 2 of them. You are also fine with 4 claimed protective roles.

To be honest, YOUR claim is the one that's stinking, not mine. Your claimed PR is that of being a scum tool. You get vanillaiced, yet there is no proof that you needed to be or that you weren't some 1 shot that used up your power and were fine being vanillaized since nobody has a clue what you did and didn't do last night. I could easily see you being scum with Flames.

Your whole 'vig kthx' plan screams scum trying to manipulate town to better your chances at winning.

I'll be visiting you tonight and we'll see if YOU are who you say you are.

I mean, if Jingle is town and a negative utility, I don't see how you could also be a negative utility and be town as well. I used your logic correctly here right?

Top claimed PR's to be scum:
Flames
Aristophanes
RBD
Mainez

Top scum picks:
Flames
RBD/Jingle
Mainez

d3x likely town
lufan leaning town
KJ leaning town
Elbirn likely town
Aristophanes leaning town

If anyone should eat a bullet tonight, it should be RBD or Jingle. My vote is to vig Jingle (claimed negative utility) while I see if RBD is who she says she is or be scums target for outing myself as not a 1 shot.

On the chance that there is a redirect and Flames is town, then the most likely fake claim is RBD in which case RBD is the best vig shot and Jingle is who I will visit.

/drop mic

[Elbirn]

I'm here. Nothing to say really. Frankly I've been waiting for us to just lynch Flames.

[killerjester]

If I get jailed it's as if my prediction never happened, so I won't get anything.

Can we get a hammer in here what what.

[Flames682]

Guys come on are your plans perfected enough. You do realize there's probably scum working with you in this plan.

[Jingle]

Again: Yes or No - If Flames flips Terry that means kthnx needs to be vigged because it means that there is no town utility to have a role cop.

I don't think I am ever going to see kthnx as town, and he is probably going to be dead one way or another by the end of the game. I just want him to die and prove lufan as town all at the same time. Also d3x check was the worst possible check except for me, unless you are now trying to argue that characters have no bearing on alignment, because who else could possibly have been a self-targeting bus driver than Rick? Target Aristo, target Mainz, target KJ, heck even targeting Flames makes more sense. He went with what was probably about the worst move he could make, is not in the least bit "cleared" so yes, I want him dead and will probably be voting him out the gate tomorrow and never moving my vote if I have the chance.

"Not enough investigate power" is just a cop out. Weak cop - great role. Morty cop - well there is apparently another cop for a specific mafia member. JK - that becomes almost an investigator when there are lower number. Motion detector - that's an investigator. Are we really going to have a fifth role that is really strong like that? Doesn't it make sense for scum to have a role cop instead of town have a specific role cop and a role cop?

I would actually like you to name some things he did that would possibly suggest he is town. Because even if I wanted to I would be hard pressed to actually make anything that resembles a decent town case on him. He is at best liability town due to his N1 action.

@lufan - If Flames flips the character Scary Terry you are shooting kthnx tonight to prove your role. If there is somehow a hammer without us having figured it out entirely for if he flips something else - you are still shooting kthnx tonight.

No.

Guesses as to who could be a self targeting busdriver except for rick: A Zigerion, Evil Rick, Evil Morty, etc. Frankly there is a surprising lack of players in the game who don't make sense as a busdriver or redirector of some kind, especially ones who fit the scumteam.

For balance and role complexity reasons, there can't be multiples of those in the game, but holy shit does having d3x cleared mean a lot. It means to me that scum doesn't have busdriver roles. And hell yes does it mean that d3x is cleared, unless you'd like to make an argument for flavor to make Rick "Dark Coalition". As for roles not fitting flavor: NOT ALL OF THE ROLES FIT THEIR FLAVOR PERFECTLY.

Furthermore, targeting d3x had the potential to confirm d's action AND someone else as town. It wasn't a bad choice. It wasn't the choice I would've made, but this "Worst choice he could've possibly made" bullshit is both damaging and insulting.

And no, 1-shot jk is not balanced as an investigative role. It's balanced as part of a missing kill. Because it should always get used early in order to ensure it actually gets used. The reason I didn't want it used last night was because Heartless had an odd night role and I thought that they'd be alive today to get protected. Motion detector is like, the weakest investigative in the world in role madness. It means absofuckinglutely nothing, and as far as I can tell the only purpose of it is to confirm that scum do target you, which you'll not is useless information. Morty cop wasn't gonna balance as a full investigation, because it gives a result of "maybe scum" on one person in the game. You'll recognize that as not incredibly powerful. And terry being reasonable as scum or town? It's like a fucking godfather for scum. The investigative side of things seems perfectly fine to me.

Kthx is town on balance concerns. Period. Insults to his ability are not helpful, and even if he is as you say a liability, then he still doesn't get lynched because he's a fucking town player. Policy lynching an innocent child is fucking retarded, and this is pretty close.

Lufan, you shoot kthx tonight and I'll lead a wagon on you for claiming SK.

Kthx, shut up. RBD is town. Also, if anyone didn't realclaim, do so now or I will fucking policy lynch you. Don't test me. I have 0 qualms with policy lynching over this in LYLO.

The remaining scum is in Mainez/Aristo/KJ with me being almost certain on Mainez. Given main is using his only claimed shot tonight, he'd be my choice for vig if it absolutely has to happen.

Quick question because I just realized it wasn't said explicitly: RBD, did you receive a PM notifying you you were vanilla? If you did not, would you ask the mod for an updated role PM by PM? If he gives you one and it's not changed, Aristo is confscum and everyone else should ask the same question.

And fuck ending the day now. We have a full dayphase, and we're using it.

[lufan131]

Ok. I'll shoot randomly, then.

[kiwieagle]

Thought...

@Mod- Does this setup follow NAR?

Yes.



Also: Aristophanes and Mainez have been prodded.

[Flames682]

These plans are boring yawn

[Rainbowdash]

Mainez is probably town due to lack of anything getting screwed up last night. If he even just targeted RIP that probably would have got the scum kill through and made RIP likely to be lynched/vigged, which would then end up with what looks like an inevitable Mainez death. Even targeted Aristo would have had the same thing happen.

Still think kthnx is scum. I don't buy the "balance" argument too much here because im not convinced character cop is really anything that balances either way with any strength. I have used what Elbrin is as a cop before as a mod, but made it very clear that they were a cop and would get a guilty on a few characters, not sure I have ever seen a character cop as town. Why not just call them a cop in that case. Add in that he lied about his role AFTER he saw us mislynch day one due to it and then claimed intent to again throw away his action, im pretty ready to just nuke them. That and their entire post ignored quite a few reasons as to why he is scum that has nothing to do with roles and was just a OMGUS fueled chaos.

@lufan - You are still shooting kthnx outside of something changing from town block (me/Elbrin/d3x) consensus. Jingle is just blustering about the SK thing and either way there are enough of us that would keep you alive that his vote wouldn't come into play.

@Jingle - Way Rick can be scum is if mafia is Rick and Morty. Its been a mild paranoia for a bit, but I don't think its happening and if it is we already have one scum locked down. Also who should lufan shoot? KJ? If you are on the "role trying to confirm themselves" tear, Mainez is a bad kill because if he stops the scum kill that would confirm him as town. And of course I got a PM saying I was VT now, I would have been trying to get Aristo lynched if I didn't.