Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[singersigner]

Um ok so not evolving. That was a terrible way to describe his willingness to jump ship from wagon to wagon. I think he's willing to challenge the status-quo which I'll admit, gives me warm giblets, since most of it was his approach to just wanting a flip to gain information. He's not really elaborating on his reads, but he's willing to give them. He's willing to bark up the wrong tree. I honestly don't know UTscum, but I assume this kind of behavior comes from either alignment, so again, I don't really know what about it makes it scum, except that this behavior is pretty easily targetable as a mislynch. Same as vezok's just because vezok doesn't always articulate things that well. That kind of thing is easy for scum to sluff off as a scum read because it's hard to defend as an insider-knowledge town read.

Preview Edit:
He's not a lurker. Did I ever say he was?

I honestly think his reaction to Gamma was a lot like my gut reaction to Gamma. If someone's very wrong about you, especially a town read, it's going to throw you off, and you're going to have a hard time understanding how someone you're townreading, is all of a sudden pushing bad logick trains. Even if it's a good logick train, how do you react if they're still wrong?

[singersigner]

*sigh*

I'm just more interested in the people we can't sus out who could actually be a threat tonight, to be honest. He's not a hardcore scumread of mine, so I'm not really interested in pursuing someone who doesn't threaten us right now unless I have to. There're still plenty of votes to be placed, and plenty of catchups to be made, so I don't have to.

[Oversoul]

That is fair.

VOTE: DV

[Shadoweh]

I think there's just something wrong with me beccause Gamma's posts just read scummy to me as a gut reaction, but there's like, nothing wrong with them. Then again I have the same feeling about Cheetory, so I'm chalking these up to not being used to them. It really throws off my sense of who is what though.

Also I'm going to still be able to post but

V/LA Until May 10th

as things have gotten worse then food poisoning. I'm personally fine. I can at least throw down a vote on either formerfish or DV since they're both imo the worst fluff contenders.

##Vote: Formerfeesh

[Oversoul]

Fail. Meant to vote Fish, not DV.
I greatly encourage the counterwagons between FF and UT.

VOTE: Formerfish

[hitogoroshi]

VC 115 (Major Day 2, VC 3)

(4)

Untrod Tripod:

Gammagooey, Titus, ChannelDelibird, TellTaleHeart

(Oversoul)

[L-5]
(3)

Formerfish:

singersigner, Shadoweh, Oversoul
(2)

Titus:

Eseponage, Aronis

(singersigner)

(1)

Espeonage:

ActionDan
(1)

DeasVail:

Cheetory6
(1)

Bulbazak:

vezokpiraka
(1)

DeasVail:

mastin2

(Oversoul)

(4)

Not Voting:

DeasVail, Formerfish, Bulbazak, Untrod Tripod

(Shadoweh)

With 17 players alive it's 9 to lynch. Major Day Two will end Tuesday, May 19th, at 2PM CST.

Major Day Two Deadline

(expired on 2015-05-19 13:00:00)

Shadoweh is V/LA until May 10th.

[Titus]

Fail. Meant to vote Fish, not DV.
I greatly encourage the counterwagons between FF and UT.

VOTE: Formerfish

Me too, but you're voting the wrong one. Marquis was pretty fucking town and FF has not done much to change that.

[singersigner]

How do you agree with counterwagons between the two while only encouraging voting one?

[Titus]

VLA until Monday, working on my 5e character builder...yippie. Right now, you can have any class you want, as long as it's a Barbarian and you use no equipment and do not multiclass.

[Titus]

How do you agree with counterwagons between the two while only encouraging voting one?

VCA. Plus it can highlight if I am wrong, which I doubt.

[Titus]

VLA until Monday

[singersigner]

How do you agree with counterwagons between the two while only encouraging voting one?

VCA. Plus it can highlight if I am wrong, which I doubt.

Yes but if you're telling people they're wrong for voting a counterwagon, you're essentially telling them they should only be voting the one wagon...which wouldn't be giving the counterwagon you're agreeing they should have. Am I missing something here?

[Titus]

Nope. I am documenting my opinion as to which is the right wagon. Town should only vote scum if the right cases have been made. VCA depends on the tension between voting town and scum. Also, as you have seen, my opinion isn't God. Wagons happen all the time but are not intended to go to lynch. The TTH wagon was one for instance.

[Titus]

I would also support Bulba and UT counterwagons for the same reason. If TTH is right on Bulba, he should be able to out argue me. If I am right, UT should be lynched.

[singersigner]

Can you tell me how THIS is more town than THIS?

[Titus]

I already did. Marquis is much more town than UT. FF has been dealing with a fiance in the emergency room. I'm factoring that into a reason why he's not producing content. He should subout ideally but we all know that people don't always do what they should. UT meanwhile has indicated he's here and reading the thread and laughing at us attempting to explain his read on Gamma.

[singersigner]

How was Marquis so much more town than that? What did you think of Marquis' replace-out? Don't you think it's about time we do something about dead weight?

If it's one thing I've gotten from you, Titus, is that you make very calculated moves, so I'm wondering why you're essentially ignoring a red flag replacement and making excuses for them instead of requesting they do the smart thing and replace out to give town Titus a better opportunity at analyzing their interactions with the rest of the game. When will that be a priority for you?

[Oversoul]

Only thing town from Marquis is the replace out.
I've done that as scum though.
I even tricked the person replacing in, thinking it was a town slot b

[Untrod Tripod]

I aint laughin at shit. I explained why I can't make long involved posts right now

[Oversoul]

Is it because of the roosters?

[Titus]

@UT, It sure comes across as laughing at us when you can't take five seconds to type out basic reasoning to support your Gamma read. We aren't talking walls here.

@Oversoul, hardly. His interaction with me regarding his meta and his reaction to his prior wagon were both town. Also, I'm not about to change my read on a guy for taking care of a sick fiance. Call me manipulatable all you want, that's just a blow I won't go down. I'd go for trying to encourage him to sub out to focus on more important things, but I'm not viewing taking care of someone in his life as scummy. Not a chance. When I was in a car accident, I was not playing my best mafia, but I looked forward to it as it was the only thing that generally stopped me from feeling the pain in my back constantly. I'm treating FF the way I would want to be treated. If you disagree, you have your opinion, but I'm not going to.

@Singer, Not even sure what you mean by a "red flag" replacement. I'm not going to post frequently that players should sub out, when it derails a good wagon on UT. Not going to happen. I've been told I'm too overbearing and trying to force what I think is right on the group, when there's a perfectly acceptable option to pursue because that player had to be scum. You are right though that I am calculated regardless of my alignment. I'm a little less calculated as town but still very much so. Mafia is a mental chessmatch to me.

[TellTaleHeart]

Can you tell me how THIS is more town than THIS?

You are asking the wrong question.

[TellTaleHeart]

I would also support Bulba and UT counterwagons for the same reason. If TTH is right on Bulba, he should be able to out argue me. If I am right, UT should be lynched.

You realize I'm voting UT, correct?

[Titus]

I would also support Bulba and UT counterwagons for the same reason. If TTH is right on Bulba, he should be able to out argue me. If I am right, UT should be lynched.

You realize I'm voting UT, correct?

I am. I was explaining my position. We'd do much better if all the town leaders could agree on two/three wagons and force scums to pick between those wagons. We do have a large set of people townreading each other. Scum are caught when they have to make a decision. Here, they can sit back and bicker. If we narrowed between UT and Bulba and those were the only acceptable wagons, you should be thrilled as you'd think it would be an automatic scumlynch so there's little harm in us debating which was scummier from your perspective. From mine, I have faith in my abilities to argue and Bulba's to appear town.

[Bulbazak]

@Oversoul...yes, why would Titus begin discussion on why GiF was killed? Why would she offer TSO's "not sign" heavily implying she was some sort of PR which one could only assume was to maybe draw the nightkill question mark? In which case why wouldn't she then try to crumb her own sign after publicly outing this fact question mark? Why would she then speculate on how scum was setting her up with literally nothing to back that up at ALL as she was literally the FIRST PERSON TO EVEN SUGGEST IT AS THOUGH IT WAS PREMEDITATED OR SOMETHING? Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I think you keep overlooking Titus's tendency to try to make everything have meaning. Look back at what happened when TSO was lynched. She immediately looked back at his reads, thinking he may have been killed for those, instead of just being the opportune lynch. Now compare that to how she is seeing meaning in GiF's death. It's paranoid conspiracy theory Titus, and try as you might, I don't see that coming from her as scum.

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

Yes, and a little computer programming training. Lawyering is about finding clear and concise rules and applying them. Emotional basis is largely absent and detached. Things that are true are withheld because they are more likely to cause people to think something is true, without it actually being true. My stance on meta (prior good/bad acts) is much similar to that in US jurisprudence. If something is more likely to mislead, then to actually help, then don't use it. That's why I still listen to meta arguments but I'm largely dismissive unless they relate to personality. Someone's acts in another game can easily mislead us one way or the other. US Common law tends to be built on a basis of caselaw that creates a basis of rules. My VCA is an attempt to boil those actions to a calculation to determine what scum will do and when, more importantly how they will vote and when.

The Socratic method is also a useful tool for persuasion and for being persuaded. It's also how to determine if I will town or scumread someone. First, find out what the elements are a person uses to define their reads. My behavior reads are logical validity (not soundness, someone could believe something I wholeheartedly disagree with them on, if their position makes sense), town/scum benefit (who benefits more by pushing/doing an action), passion, mental transparency (are they hiding anything), and survival over pursuit. Meta plays a part to define personality. I know this leads me to conflict with emotion based players who just try to fit everything into a worldview without actually listening to facts. I consider it a flaw if I'm wrong on a tunnel, because that means I have a bad fact or a was persuaded of something that wasn't true.

Lurkers and people who refuse to engage in a dialogue are the most frustrating for this reason. I cannot engage in the mental chessmatch to determine alignment. Singer's refusal to actually engage me on any read but me is part of the reason I am struggling with her.

You're the kind of person who thinks every little accident has malicious intent behind it.
Break a vase? You were upset at what I brought you 5 years ago. Trip over a cable? You were annoyed I spend too much time on the internet and wanted to make me leave it.

Was there a point to this, or were you just trying to be disparaging?

Don't you think it's about time we do something about dead weight?

Okay. Why aren't you voting Aronis?