[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[somestrangeflea]

Hmm...

Disabler Mafia v3

16 player
3 Mafia Members - 1 Doc Enabler, 1 Cop Enabler, 1 Vig Enabler
2 Docs
2 Cops
1 Vig
8 Townies

And

Third: Open Countdown

[The Fonz]

Now that might be worthwhile, SSF.

[xyzzy]

6-player nightless

2 mafia
4 townies

5-player nightless

1 mafia
4 townies

In the 6-player variant, both scum are vengeful-style GFs: if one dies, they lose. Effectively, they're scum lovers.

Both games give the

town

scum lol a 40% winning chance. I like the 6-player variant better, because it's easier to catch scum than an SK, since they're on a team.

[Maz Medias]

Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Mafia A Cop
1 Mafia B Cop
1 Doctor
5 Townies

This is estimated - I run it face-to-face pretty often. Having an "A Doc" and "B Doc" can be fun.

[Guardian]

xyzzy, i like 6-player nightless. I would modify it very slightly, thusly:

7 player vengeful godfather thing:
2 mafia (both vengeful godfather style)
5 town

day start. then night if no mafia lynched and a mafia NK. then day.

[Kelly Chen]

xyzzy you must've done your math backwards. I get that

scum

have 40% to win in both of those setups. (In 6p scum odds are 4/6 * 3/5. In 5p it's 4/5 * 3/4 * 2/3.)

I like Maz' setup better with an additional townie instead of a doc.

I'm not sure I understand Guardian's suggestion.

[Guardian]

Basically it is the same game with slightly better odds for scum, and non-nightless -- they get a kill after day one if they survive.

5/7 * 3/5 = 3/7 odds for scum seems fairer for scum, and NK WIFOM gets interesting.

[Adel]

There is a really fundamental bit of theory I don't think I quite understand well enough for making balanced set ups.

Which requires more power roles in the town?:

a: 1 Godfather, 2 Goons
b: 3 Goons, 1 SK
c: 2 Goons in Mafia A, 2 Goons in Mafia B

how much difference does 1 time or constant cross kill protection change things?

[Guardian]

Well, by asking about 1 godfather 2 goons you are assuming a cop...

Assuming that we aren't assuming a cop.

I think that b,c,a "require" more power roles.

1-time kill protection in c, with no other changes, would probably bump it up past b, seeing as an SK lynch in b can make it just like a...


helped?

[Kelly Chen]

If you balance my way, town's power should be more in proportion to the strength of

one

scum group, not all of them combined. Thus I think setups like C call for the least town power.

(It's true that if the various scum groups control a ton of kills, then they could by accident wipe out the town by N2. That's an issue, but not necessarily a balance issue; you don't necessarily improve the situation by loading the town up with safeguards to prevent the nightmare scenario, because then in a less severe scenario the town dominates for no good reason.)

The main thing with C is that both scum groups start out puny relative to the town, and they're vulnerable to each other's kills. Loading the town up with four good power roles, let's say, would be pretty inappropriate imho. It's already an uphill battle for scum.

I am not sure how total crosskill immunity would affect the game; it's not exactly fatal to the town since hitting a scum becomes like a cop investigation. The game is changed quite a bit.

[Crub]

I was thinking about the infiltrator role and came up with this. Instead of having the infiltrator overhearing mafia conversation, how about you make the mafia choose x targets where x is the number of mafia alive, each mafia has to nominate a different target. Only 1 of the targets dies but the infiltrator gets told 1 of the other targets randomly.

2xMafia
1xInfiltrator
6xTownie

- or -

3xMafia
2xInfilitrator (each gets told a name randomly - both could get the same name)
7xTownie

What do you guys think? I think it could end up unbalanced in mafia favour.

[Adel]

Okay, I think this is balanced then.

What is the Dark Knight? Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Dark Knight*
1 Cop
1 Doc
6 Townies

Night Start

* The Dark Knight can investigate like a Cop can. If investigated by a sane Cop, the Dark Knight aways returns a "guilty" or "mafia" or "scum" or similar result. The Dark Knight can either investigate a target or kill a target each night. There is a 50% chance that the Dark Knight is a Serial Killer, and wins if he is the only player left alive, otherwise he wins with the town. If the Dark Knight is a SK he also gains immunity from being killed by a night move. If killed, the Dark Knight's role and alignment will be reported as simply "(Player's Name), Dark Knight"

I was trying to decide between this and other scum groupings. My other impulse was to have two scum groups, but I abandoned that idea thanks to Kelly's input.

[Adel]

Which Dark Knight do we trust? Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Dark Knight (scum)*
1 Dark Knight (town)*
1 Cop
1 Doc
5 Townies

Night Start

* The Dark Knight can investigate like a Cop can. If investigated by a sane Cop, the Dark Knight aways returns a "guilty" or "mafia" or "scum" or similar result. If investigated a Dark Knight, the investigation result is "Dark Knight". The Dark Knight can either investigate a target or kill a target each night. One Dark Knight is a Serial Killer, and wins if he is the only player left alive. The scum Dark Knight also has immunity from being killed by a night move. The town Dark Knight wins with the town. If killed, both Dark Knight's role and alignment will be reported as simply "(Player's Name), Dark Knight". If one Dark Knight targets the other Dark Knight for a night kill, the kill will fail. If both Dark Knights target each other for a night kill, both will die- this is the only way the scum Dark Knight can die as the result of a night move.[/quote]

[Kelly Chen]

In the first setup, if the DK is protown... That seems awfully strong. Not only do you have a doc to protect the cop, you have another cop who doesn't even have to claim results.

A scum DK has to be sure the mafia don't die off too soon, since if the game continues after the mafia are gone it's a dead giveaway that the DK is scum. I haven't thought this through but it seems like this might add up to the scum DK typically being unable to win.

The millerness is probably limited in effect. It could cause the cop to claim prematurely when he gets the guilty result, and that would cause the DK to have to claim. I can't see it resulting in a DK lynch though (not the investigation itself anyway... unless the DK had earlier claimed to not be DK). I also don't think mafia would ever try claiming DK (which was the first thing I considered when I read the DK was a miller), since that's just asking to be vigged.

My main thought about the second setup is that the scum DK badly needs to not claim unless forced by a cop investigation. If both DKs claim, the town probably waits for the scum to succeed in killing off the good one, meaning the other DK is obviously scum.

[Adel]

In the first setup, if the DK is protown... That seems awfully strong. Not only do you have a doc to protect the cop, you have another cop who doesn't even have to claim results.

I think the cop investigating the DK and getting "guilty" and the DK's alignment being unprovable attenuates some of the impact of a protown DK.

A scum DK has to be sure the mafia don't die off too soon, since if the game continues after the mafia are gone it's a dead giveaway that the DK is scum. I haven't thought this through but it seems like this might add up to the scum DK typically being unable to win.

A scummy DK is immune to a mafia's NK. In a scummy DK-mafia-single townie night phase the DK wins. In a DK-mafia-single townie day phase so long as the DK isn't lynched, he always wins, and if the last three massclaim the townie will always be on that 50% chance that the DK is also town: the townie has 0% chance of winning otherwise.

I think the game with a single pro-town DK is balanced towards town, but I don't think it is quite broken. The mafia will have teamwork on their side, and the danger of a scummy DK should keep the town hesitant to protect him.

Consider this tactic: After two mislynches and an accurate vig by a pro-town DK the score is (1 mafia goon, 1 mafia godfather) - 1 town DK - (1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 townies) The Cop and the DK know the Doc and is innocent. Cop just got a "guilty" verdict on the DK. The Cop reports the DK is guilty, the DK claims that he is a protown DK. The Goon points out where he breadcrumbed on day 1 "I am the dark knight, returned!" The Fakeclaiming goon points out that even if he is a scummy DK, if they kill off the two mafia together, the town will still win. The town lynches the DK. During the night move the mafia kill the Doc. The next day is a lynch-the-lyer autolynch: resulting with a night move townie death and a score of 1 Godfather - (1 Cop, 1 townie) and the Cop who can't trust his innocent investigation results. The mafia could easily win.

The millerness is probably limited in effect. It could cause the cop to claim prematurely when he gets the guilty result, and that would cause the DK to have to claim. I can't see it resulting in a DK lynch though (not the investigation itself anyway... unless the DK had earlier claimed to not be DK). I also don't think mafia would ever try claiming DK (which was the first thing I considered when I read the DK was a miller), since that's just asking to be vigged.

I just pointed out where a mafia could counter claim a DK and get a lynch. I think there are couple of other critical scenarios where the miller effect is bad for the unclaimed DK.

Do you think the first game is broken?

If both DKs claim, the town probably waits for the scum to succeed in killing off the good one, meaning the other DK is obviously scum.

I really like the possibility of what happens when both DKs have claimed, and neither can kill the other with a night move, and there are one or two townies left. I also like the endgame with one mafia, one claimed DK of unknown alignment, and one or two townies. I like a mafia Godfather being left with a DK and a townie. I like fakeclaims by mafia as well. I like the night start and the quick day 1. The open queue moves fast enough that two NK's on night 1 will leave two players who can easily get back into another game. I like like the number of scenarios where the vanilla townie will get to cast a critical vote that determines the outcome of the game. I think some players will almost drool at the chance to be a Dark Knight- He's like a Sk and a Vig and a Cop: all of the coolest roles combined into one over-powered bad-ass. The scummy DK is even immune to being NK'd! (Albert B. Rampage: I have you in mind for this role. I'm sorry I couldn't give him unlimited day kills for you, but I did what I could.)
I like that the DK have little reason to ever claim.

If you can think of any ways these games can be improved, or if you think one is more promising than the others, please share. Cooperating with Zin on Big Love was cool, and left me wanting to co-design set-ups as a rule instead of as an exception.

[somestrangeflea]

I once saw a TV show which had a game of Mafia in it. Just out of curiosity, I want to see what you people think of the setup that was used:

Semi-Nightless

9 players
2 Mafia
7 Townies

Only nights 3 and 5 have kills.
There is no "No-Lynch"

I personally think that this setup isn't very good, but I just wanted to throw it open to the people in the know...

[Aimee]

Adel, I think you kind of summed up the problem of the Dark Knight to me - "one over-powered bad-ass," and whilst this is cool for some, it's a bit difficult in terms of balancing.

[Adel]

Honestly, the role wasn't supposed to be popular with most girls. I think the resulting game would be interesting to the participants who choose to play in it. I'll play in it. The random alignment do make the balance swingy, but so do the number of night actions. I am still striving for a game that plays fast and entertaining, like a summer blockbuster. It may not appeal to those with refined tastes, and that is ok so long as the kids like it. I want to play in a Dark Knight game, I think it would be fun and unexpectedly swingy but in an interesting and novel way each time. The skill of the player playing the Dark Knight will also have a swingy effect on the game's balance. In that case, how much would the Mafia team up with the town to take down the MeMe-strength Dark Knight? I think that thanks to the number of swingy elements, and how quickly a game should resolve, this popcorn fare will gather a repeat audience.

[Aimee]

Honestly, the role wasn't supposed to be popular with most girls. I think the resulting game would be interesting to the participants who choose to play in it. I'll play in it. The random alignment do make the balance swingy, but so do the number of night actions. I am still striving for a game that plays fast and entertaining, like a summer blockbuster. It may not appeal to those with refined tastes, and that is ok so long as the kids like it. I want to play in a Dark Knight game, I think it would be fun and unexpectedly swingy but in an interesting and novel way each time. The skill of the player playing the Dark Knight will also have a swingy effect on the game's balance. In that case, how much would the Mafia team up with the town to take down the MeMe-strength Dark Knight? I think that thanks to the number of swingy elements, and how quickly a game should resolve, this popcorn fare will gather a repeat audience.

Yeah, I get you here. I think this is an appeal difference here. That said, I'm not really sure whether it is the definition of an Open Game to be so experimental - but I think that is up to Thesp to decide.

[Yosarian2]

The millerness is probably limited in effect. It could cause the cop to claim prematurely when he gets the guilty result, and that would cause the DK to have to claim. I can't see it resulting in a DK lynch though (not the investigation itself anyway... unless the DK had earlier claimed to not be DK). I also don't think mafia would ever try claiming DK (which was the first thing I considered when I read the DK was a miller), since that's just asking to be vigged.

Meh. If there's any sign of a SK in that setup (IE: more then one death) then a dark night claim should equal an instant lynch. Even if there's not a sign of a SK, the dark knight had better be being really darn helpful to the town, and he still might get lynched anyway. If there was someone who had a 50/50 chance of being a uber-endgame-winning-SK, I'd probably lynch him if I was town town unless the mafia was about to win, and I'd definatly lynch him if I was scum under any circumstances. So no, I don't think a dark knight claim is ever going to be helpful, even if it's believed (and people who get a guilty on them from a cop often aren't believed). If he gets cop investigated, he's probably dead. Which is a good thing, as it's the only thing that makes the role somewhat sane.

[Kelly Chen]

I was not thinking clearly when I wrote that.

I've reviewed too many setups lately with millers that wouldn't work as (presumably) intended...

[Adel]

I've reviewed too many setups lately with millers that wouldn't work as (presumably) intended...

That was almost a compliment I think.

[Guardian]

Comments on "Open Normal" post 907, how to improve it, if it is bad, whatever, would be appreciated.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Are we ever going to see Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla? I was really hoping to at least get a yes-or-no decision on it.

Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla

3 Mafia
9 Townies

-Nightless
-Votes to lynch=number of mafia alive+1

[Thesp]

Open Countdown is cute, and I'd love to see it run as a mini-theme game. (I'm hesitant to call any game which relies on real-time to be "Normal", which includes things like daykills, etc.)

Medical Mafia is intriguing, and I'm thinking about running it. Objections or balance thoughts?

I don't like it. Mafia already lose some advantage after losing a member, you're just tipping the scales entirely in the town's favor.

Well, what if the situation were reversed?

Disabler Mafia v2

3 Mafia
8 Vanilla Townies
1 Disabler

The mafia cannot NK until the disabler is lynched.

Again, I'm not sure about numbers...

I'd be intrigued by this

if

the Disabler doesn't know that they are the Disabler,

and

the Mafia knows who the Disabler is

. What do y'all think?

Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Mafia A Cop
1 Mafia B Cop
1 Doctor
5 Townies

This is estimated - I run it face-to-face pretty often. Having an "A Doc" and "B Doc" can be fun.

I'll run this soon, if there are no objections. I don't mind the doctor there, though if the town seems overpowered, make them one-shot? Also, what about making it so the cop doesn't know which team they detect? (It gives scum an excellent chance to claim here.)

I'm intrigued by the Dark Knight setup. What about making the DK only immune to first NK?

Are we ever going to see Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla? I was really hoping to at least get a yes-or-no decision on it.

Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla

3 Mafia
9 Townies

-Nightless
-Votes to lynch=number of mafia alive+1

Yes.

New game in signups tomorrow - tell me which one.