Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mgm]

When I said "the day" I meant today (Friday).

[Glork]

MGM: My biggest outlying question right now would be for you to address this:

Mgm, could you post your thoughts on Post 1886:

Is there anything else you wanted to hear from the other players? Any specific questions, general thoughts/comments?

I'll let you read what parts you want to read and I wouldn't mind seeing Mgm's thing as well. Actually I would be pretty interested in seeing Mgm's thing.

** Comment on laziness from before: I don't think Thesp has been playing any lazier than normal, nor am I playing lazier than normal. In fact I've put more into this game than my average game. The laziness that bothers me is mostly CES. If I had one/two votes on me, especially from varying people, and with others expressing suspicion of me, I'd be freaking out and trying my hardest to convince people that I shouldn't be lynched and that they should take me out of quicklynch range. Maybe that reflects just different playstyle between me and CES rather than a possible different alignment, but it feels like he's acting in the same that ChannelDelibird was acting when we had nailed him.**

MBL's analysis today is pretty good, and looks fairly protown, but I know he's thorough as scum and I wouldn't put it past him to do it as scum as well as town. I think if he is protown then voting CES like that was not the cleverest idea in the world, but equally if he is scum with Mgm then it would also have been a really sloppy attempt to snatch victory when just waiting a day or two would have been completely safe.

The pairing that worries me the most (after CES/Mgm which is currently my top one) is actually CES/MBL rather than Mgm/MBL. I think I mentioned before that there seems to be alot of genuine friction between MBL and Mgm. MBL pushed Mgm hard day 1 when he wasn't a top candidate, and let's remember if Mgm is scum he's the godfather. Would a goon set out to bus the GF early? I could see a GF busing heavily at a pinch because he can't be touched by cops but a goon busing the GF seems risky when you don't know what the poweroles are. And again later, there just seems to be alot of genuine angst between them. I'm still not too happy with Mgm's opening to today, because it looked pre planned, and not at all how I felt starting the day, and apparently not how Glork (who I think is protown) felt at the start of the day, which may indicate a different mindset. Pre planned busing or pre planned attempt to frame MBL with a slightly off nightkill? Or just unusual playstyle bleh. Glork, if you have some link you can see between Mgm and MBL, other than MBL's vote for CES, then you might as well tell us. For MBL/CES though, there is some distance between them but not as much, could be contrived. I'm not going to worry that much about it right now because in this case lynching CES is absolutely fine anyway. If CES were to be lynched as a godfather, MBL is very likely the other scum.

Taking it one step at a time, CES seems like the best lynch to me. How worried are you about that MBL/Thesp pairing you were talking about before? Because I've taken it mainly that CES has been blowing steam, but again, if there's some link between them then now is the time, we might not get another chance. Thesp has seemed pretty genuinely protown to me for a while now though.

Note, Mgm, that this came after a post in which I said: "Patrick, you and I think we're pro-town, and the two of us are deciding today's lynch, so give me your opinions and I will take them into consideration."

Would you have expected PatrickScum to come back with a post that amounted to "CES is the lynch today" or would you have expected PatrickScum to attempt to convince me that MBL was the play for the way he pounced on CES? Keep in mind that, if Patrick/CES were the scumpair, Patrick could have jumped on MBL just as I did, gotten a mislynch on MBL, and ended the game right there and then.

You say that MBL's behavior towards CES yesterday makes no sense from a scum perspective. I've been thinking that Patrick's behavior yesterday makes no sense from a scum perspective, and I have proposed a scenario where MBLscum would pounce on CESscum just the way he did.

Vote: MBL

Simply put, I still think MBL is more likely to be scum than Patrick.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Patrick: 1 (Mgm)
MrBuddyLee : 1 (Glork)

Not voting: MrBuddyLee Patrick

4 alive means

3

to lynch!

[Patrick]

With the hindsight that both Thesp and Ether were protown, I'd like you to explain how holding off voting either of them is meant to be scummy.

Why do you only target me with your "admitting to being wrong" is a scumtell?

You keep talking about, "MBL would have sacrificed himself yesterday if he was scum." What would you expect him to do exactly? "Hey guys I'm scum lynch me now plzkthxbai". And it's been pointed out that his quick vote for CES may have been at attempt to do exactly that, whilst putting distance between himself and CES.

Also, what did I do yesterday that you would expect from scum?

If you are so set on using the WIFOM of last night's kill against me, then I want you to explain why exactly you think I would have killed CTD on night 4 if I was scum. Not something I'd usually bring up, but you are apparently a big fan of using nightkills to make crucial decisions.
-----------------------

Those are the main ones that come to mind right now, though Glork's is also important. Also, I've finished reading the last Harry Potter.

[Mr Stoofer]

That's another 24 hours+ without a post.

If that happens again I think I'll have no choice but to institute a deadline.

[Patrick]

Mgm, please give this game the time it deserves. I do not want a deadline.

[Glork]

Can we also get a

Modprod

on MrBuddyLee? He hasn't posted since July 16.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't need a prod. I'm here and listening, hoping the break will give me a fresh perspective on the game.

[Glork]

Or you're hoping for a deadline, no-lynch, GlorkKill, and that Mgm won't WIFOM himself out of voting Patrick tomorrow.

[MrBuddyLee]

Actually, I read Harry Potter and Storm of Swords, learned to bake pita bread, made hummus and channa masala, worked on firespinning, welded ears legs cheeks and tail to a giant roving bunny, and got addicted to Catan and Bomberman in addition to the ongoing Warcraft addiction. Amazingly, after all that I still reflect back and think you're the scum and Patrick's the misguided townie. I just don't think you smell like town this game--too much monkey business.

[Glork]

...which reminds me. You never explained who Fritz's N2 investigation was, if not me(or why he would elect not to hint-drop his investigation).

[Glork]

Patrick: Is there any particular reason you have not placed your vote yet?

[MrBuddyLee]

Happy birthday, Patrick!

I don't think I can read this thread again without going batty. I've read your posts one last time, with a fresh perspective, and it almost felt like I was someone not involved in the game. That helped me pick up on some things I missed. I'll ask my questions in a post after this blurby observational post.

Day one, you got riled up about IH. You casually laid down two theories: 1) an Andrew+MBL scumpair and 2) Andrew's wagon was scum-laden. When it came down to the svwagon, you found her scummy but stayed off it cause IH was on it, it seems. After her claim, you hammered IH for forcing a claim based on a die roll. After his long posts, you felt better about him, but never retracted your call to vig him.

When IH turned up town, you immediately attacked Glork, saying he hadn't done anything you'd expect from pro-town Glork. You two bantered, and in your next analysis post you said "today he's got his act together" which seems to assume his township. You went for Adele and Mgm, saying Thesp was suspicious as well. "There's something not quite right about your play compared to times I've seen you as town." You asked me for my opinion of Mgm because I'd found him scummy D1 but changed my mind.

Interestingly, you asked Glork to explain why you were "scum with Adele" rather than just why you were scum. Odd thing to say if you're town in my opinion. And when Adele claims, you decided you no longer wanted to lynch Thesp.

Ether hit you on this Thesp contradiction:

No, seriously. You explicitly said here that Thesp was out of character, but your later statements have contradicted this. Please explain.

And you reply: "His play on day 1 was pretty usual for him."

You indicate offhandedly that CDB is probably scum while casting suspicion on Mgm and not voting CDB.

D4 you said Zindy's late D3 posts hinted he knew CDB would come up goon. You found Glork, Thesp and I likely town and Mgm a likely godfather. When asked if you thought Mgm could be scum with CDB after the blatant protection D3, you said yes, absolutely.

Again, you ask me for my opinion on a player I'm voting--this time it's CES. You ask if I have a meta on him about retardness = scumminess. You said my defense of Nightfall meant we likely weren't scum together, you tried to push me off CES and onto Zindaras.

Your position on Zindaras made me feel more comfortable about you because it paralleled mine and I didn't think that'd be easy to fake. I figured scum would posture more about Zindy, like Glork did.

After Zindy was modkilled "Glork's uncertainty on it seemed genuine enough to me"

Pretty much no analysis of Glork content. "If he's scum he's doing better than other times I've seen him."

"The only people so far who have really "gotten results" would be Glork and Thesp." Hmm.

I read the game one last time to check your attitude towards me and see if your suspicions were proportional the entire game, because as you know scum have difficulty remaining consistent with their phony suspicions.

"MBL: Has made some useful observations/analysis."
You agreed and disagreed with several observations of mine D1 D2, particularly when I attecked you, but never found any comments scummy:
"Not really an attack in the sense of find you scummy. But I don't agree with alot of your observations today."
"I think Glork, Thesp and MBL are likely town which is at least a comforting thought."
"It doesn't seem a stretch for MBL to think Glork may have been a cop."
For the first time, you found me possibly scummy for defending Nightfall and attacking Ether.
"I can see more room for MBL to be scum than either Glork or Thesp, but I still lean town."
"I could see Nightfall/MBL as scum jumping on CES. Could see it as a counter to a Zindaras wagon."
"MBL, it's strange that you are voting CES and not Zindaras, since Zindaras seems to be your top suspect percentage wise."
"I can see Thesp who has expressed a strong desire to see CES dead, MBL who has been suspicious of him for a while now, CTD who has him moderately high on his LoS." this is expressed in a way that seems to assume my township.
"I don't see how the CTD nightkill incriminates MBL especially."
"Out of the people alive, I preferred and still prefer MBL's stances towards all those things. (D1)"
"there seems to be alot of genuine friction between MBL and Mgm. MBL pushed Mgm hard day 1 when he wasn't a top candidate, and let's remember if Mgm is scum he's the godfather. Would a goon set out to bus the GF early?"
====================================================================
TODAY:

MBL's early comments in his summary posts about CES are fairly noncommital. CES more active and chirpy than usual, and focussing on an Andrew lynch. This CES meta thing about being more active as scum has been brought up a few times by several people. Glork and Mgm, can you remind me if this is true? Both of you have more experience with CES than me.

Not too much on CES from MBL first 3 days, gets on him day 4, stated reason is a slipup which wasn't really a slipup. Keeps his vote on CES for a long time. Still slightly curious of his post 78 in that he keeps his vote on CES when Zindaras is apparently his clear top suspect at 40% likely to be scum compared to the 30% of CES. Then moves onto Zindaras a few posts later, then back onto CES with the Zindie modkill. Overall, some pressure on CES day 4, varying in strength though.

Glork is also attacking CES on and off throughout the game. Some small suspicions of CES day 2 but also a "reasonably protown" assessment. Any chance you could articulate how CES's play looked protown?

Jumps around on CES in his steam of consciousness posts, settles on CES as possible scum.

He's certainly poking at CES on day 4, demanding more content from him, though mostly without success. CES is now high on his LoS. Later eases off due to his meta on CES and goes after others. I think I'm starting to just summarise stuff now so I'll say just say that the interactions between Glork and CES seem fairly genuine. I suppose it's possible though that he was nudging/nutkicking him as I suggested MBL might have been to CDB.

This is a pretty half-assed analysis of the most important issue in the game. It reads to me like you started with your conclusion and worked backwards. I reread both Glork's and my interactions with CES and I think if anything his looks like distancing, avoidance, protection of a GF and suspect behavior. I don't see how you could reasonably construe my attacks and votes for CES as distancing.

And then you try to sway Mgm with some cocked-up argument about my third vote on CES, bizarrely asking Mgm about it five times, which is kind of out of character for you:

And it's been pointed out that his quick vote for CES may have been at attempt to do exactly that.

You've said that if MBL/CES is the pairing, MBL would have preferred to sacrifice himself. So what's your take on MBL's quick third vote for CES? "

You said that MBL if scum would attempt to sacrifice himself.

What do you think of his quick third vote on CES?

It seems you weren't paying attention to the game. Thesp voted CES first. Then Glork voted CES second. Then MBL put a quick third vote on CES with no comment. Did you miss this?

You keep talking about, "MBL would have sacrificed himself yesterday if he was scum." What would you expect him to do exactly? "Hey guys I'm scum lynch me now plzkthxbai". And it's been pointed out that his quick vote for CES may have been at attempt to do exactly that, whilst putting distance between himself and CES.

Weird.

And finally, a little revisionist history:

"If I was scum with CDB, I'd definitely have wanted to be on his lynchwagon, maybe even earlier than I was. MBL's switch over was the one bothering me the most actually."

No, you found me likely protown at the time. Now you've changed your tune.

[Patrick]

When it came down to the svwagon, you found her scummy but stayed off it cause IH was on it, it seems.

I don't remember finding her all that scummy, though I'm sure she wasn't inspiring either. It wasn't just IH's presence on there bothering me, but many of the votes on that wagon.

I don't see at all how saying, "Today Glork got his act together" assumes his township. You seem to be making that accusation about so many things this game. I also don't know what is unusual about asking why I was apparently connected to Adele or Mgm since Glork had suggested connections with one of them.

The "Thesp contradiction" was not actually a contradiction.

This is a pretty half-assed analysis of the most important issue in the game. It reads to me like you started with your conclusion and worked backwards. I reread both Glork's and my interactions with CES and I think if anything his looks like distancing, avoidance, protection of a GF and suspect behavior. I don't see how you could reasonably construe my attacks and votes for CES as distancing.

The fact that you don't like the conclusion doesn't mean it's half assed analysis. I actually think your attitude towards CDB looks more like distancing than your attitude towards CES.

And then you try to sway Mgm with some cocked-up argument about my third vote on CES, bizarrely asking Mgm about it five times, which is kind of out of character for you:

You've had to argue with Mgm too, and it does often seem to need several repetitions of certain things before he addresses it. He suggested a manner in which he would expect scum to play yesterday, and said you didn't play that way (and that I did?). So I've pointed out that your third vote on CES could well have been an attempt to put distance between the two of you, maybe even to get yourself lynched and allow CES to come through in the endgame. If you want to explain to me why it can't be that, then actual arguments would be great. Of course, repeating stuff is not at all out of character for me.

And finally, a little revisionist history:

"If I was scum with CDB, I'd definitely have wanted to be on his lynchwagon, maybe even earlier than I was. MBL's switch over was the one bothering me the most actually."

No, you found me likely protown at the time. Now you've changed your tune.

True, I've changed my mind, but I'm not sure what you're trying to show.

[Patrick]

I also recall Patrick getting angry at one point and it read very pro-town, but I'd have to see if he's capable of feigning indignance effectively as scum. I'm going to read some games where Patrick was scum and see what I can learn, I guess,

Did you get anything out of this?

[MrBuddyLee]

1) Can you please tell me the names of two completed games in which you were scum? I was unable to find any when I went looking.

2) Please explain your thought process when you changed your mind from Thesp is scum to Thesp shouldn't be hammered. Explain what Ether addressed (see previous post) about your contradiction about Thesp's typical/atypical play.

3) How did you find me "likely town" D4 after the CDB lynch if my behavior towards him was "scumbuddyish" as you claim to believe now?

4) "The only people so far who have really "gotten results" would be Glork and Thesp." Please explain your statement, made while deciding to lynch CES, which looks suspiciously like a suckup (not to mention false).

5) You gave Glork a pass since early D2 and said "If he's scum he's doing better than other times I've seen him." Well, if you're town then he's scum, so this is about the most relevant observation I can find in this game. Please detail what you saw about him that was obvious scum in other games that you don't see in this one.

6)

My gut says Mgm is trying to ease his way onto busing CES after a whole game of defending him. I caught a similar vibe from how he acted around CDB to how he is acting now.

Please elaborate on this.

7) Why the fivefold harping at Mgm about my vote for CES (see prev post), which I clearly explained? If you were really curious about my alignment, why didn't you ask ME about the vote?

8 ) You never expressed a single suspicion of me until D4, when you made a RAPID and inexplicable shift. You started the day with me on your 3 person protown list (Glork, MBL, Thesp), then within a post or two you sheeped onto Glork's Nightfall+MBL rant. Glork's bluster went nowhere, and then you never expressed suspicion again until today.

Not once during the lynch of CES did you express a negative thought about me, but today you came straight out of the gate assuming wrongly that I was scum and Glork was town. You claim to have assessed me as town all game. Yet today your behavior reads like near-certainty in the opposite direction. (token comments aside) I would expect town-Patrick to have his faith in his judgment shaken and to start today from square one, but that's not what happened. You chose to stick with your pre-existing "logic" regarding Glork but discarded your MBL logic and rebuilt me as someone who'd acted scummy over the first several days.

a) Please explain to me how you made your sudden shift D4, and

b) how you've approached this day and reached an incorrect conclusion so rapidly.

9 ) Finally, please explain your scumhunting record this game. If you're town, the scum trio is {Glork, CES, CDB}. You poked at Glork for about a third of a D2 before deciding to trust him unfailingly for the rest of the game. You ignored CES, claiming to not be able to read him, calling him "annoying and spammy" and your first vote on him was yesterday's hammer. You called CDB a lurker and ignored him until four people slapped him over the head with a fish, then you placed your first vote on him late.

You questioned Glork briefly, and didn't question CES and CDB at all. Despite not helping find scum, you ended up on both of their wagons. Explain.

[Patrick]

1) Can you please tell me the names of two completed games in which you were scum? I was unable to find any when I went looking.

My wiki page might have been a good place to look. My 4 completed games as scum:
Newbie 224 (first game ever, may not be terribly useful)
Pie c9 (the first pie c9, modded by mith)
Vengeful mafia (the one modded by Romanus)
Ben and Jerry's Mafia (most recent)

I find it curious that throughout much of the game you've been saying, "Patrick is getting angry that's very townish", yet you're only now bothering to check to see if it actually means anything at all.

2) Please explain your thought process when you changed your mind from Thesp is scum to Thesp shouldn't be hammered. Explain what Ether addressed (see previous post) about your contradiction about Thesp's typical/atypical play.

I addressed Ether's question in my post 109. His play early on day 2 felt out of character, as his attack on me continued I started to change my mind on that even though the specific attack didn't make sense. I've been the innocent victim of Thesp rampaging more than once before and it felt reminiscent of how he managed to get me lynched as town in newbie 289. The, "we gotta lynch someone" stuff didn't sway me, I'd do the same thing if given the choice again. I think no lynching gave us easily as much information as lynching in this case.

3) How did you find me "likely town" D4 after the CDB lynch if my behavior towards him was "scumbuddyish" as you claim to believe now?

This is a good question. There were several people at that point looking worse than you. Many of your posts still look fairly town to me, but I know one out of you/Glork is scum, and Glork has seemed more town to me throughout the game, before even thinking about the possibility that Fritz might have investigated him.

4) "The only people so far who have really "gotten results" would be Glork and Thesp." Please explain your statement, made while deciding to lynch CES, which looks suspiciously like a suckup (not to mention false).

You must be joking. That was a somewhat throaway comment after you said that I haven't gotten results, where I'm vaguely pointing out that very few people have got results. Thesp and Glork, look to me like the people who actually "busted" CDB, the only known scum at the time. Who else are you saying should have been on that list?

5) You gave Glork a pass since early D2 and said "If he's scum he's doing better than other times I've seen him." Well, if you're town then he's scum, so this is about the most relevant observation I can find in this game. Please detail what you saw about him that was obvious scum in other games that you don't see in this one.

You continuously misuse the phrase "free pass". You seem to be under the illusion that just because someone hasn't attacked someone much, that means that they haven't been watching them and discerning their alignment. I haven't seen stuff in other games where he was scum that scream "obvious scum". I do think his entire manner is consistent with how I've seen him play as town, as well as his tone. After CDB turned up scum, I was more confident in Glork being town for turning the tide against CDB when he could have easily left him alone and let Thesp be the only pusher, looking like a weirdo. You've made much of his supposed certainty and "bluster" on various people, but I don't see how it's particularly different to how he plays normally. For example you went on for ages about how Zindaras gave us pretty much zero material yet Glork changed his mind on him from thinking he was scum to thinking he was town. I thought it was clear he'd switched mainly because of the attitudes towards Zindaras from certain people (mainly you), and whilst I didn't agree with his specific assessment, it was correct.

6)

My gut says Mgm is trying to ease his way onto busing CES after a whole game of defending him. I caught a similar vibe from how he acted around CDB to how he is acting now.

Please elaborate on this.

Not sure quite what to add. I had a feeling that Mgm was trying to defend CES initially by going for you, then when it looked more likely CES was getting lynched he was starting to create openings to get himself onto the CES wagon without looking too inconsistent. This is how he acted towards CDB too -- he defended him then changed at the last minute.

7) Why the fivefold harping at Mgm about my vote for CES (see prev post), which I clearly explained? If you were really curious about my alignment, why didn't you ask ME about the vote?

Addressed this in my last post. We already had your explanation on the table, I was trying to prise out of Mgm what he thought about it.

a) Please explain to me how you made your sudden shift D4, and

I found you fairly protown earlier, the way you were asking lots of questions struck me that way somehow. I think you're overstating my apparent shift here though. Although I didn't find you as clean as I did previously, I didn't sheep onto a Nightfall/MBL pairing (I actually think I said I still lean town, and that your defences of Nightfall didn't strongly look like scum defending scum). Two things that did make me wonder more about you that day than before were 1) The more I looked at Ether's not hammering of Thesp the more I liked it, so she fell quite alot down my list as a suspect, and 2) Your vote for CES didn't feel quite right.

b) how you've approached this day and reached an incorrect conclusion so rapidly.

I approached this day by rereading. Nothing too out of the ordinary. I did not put alot of weight in the Thesp nightkill. You can assert that I've reached an incorrect conclusion, but that hardly carries much weight as an argument.

9 ) Finally, please explain your scumhunting record this game. If you're town, the scum trio is {Glork, CES, CDB}. You poked at Glork for about a third of a D2 before deciding to trust him unfailingly for the rest of the game. You ignored CES, claiming to not be able to read him, calling him "annoying and spammy" and your first vote on him was yesterday's hammer. You called CDB a lurker and ignored him until four people slapped him over the head with a fish, then you placed your first vote on him late.

You questioned Glork briefly, and didn't question CES and CDB at all. Despite not helping find scum, you ended up on both of their wagons. Explain.

Saying that I've trusted Glork unfailingly for the rest of the game makes it sound like I've ignored him. If I thought there was something he'd done that was scummy, I'd have pointed it out, asked him questions about it. The rest somewhat overlaps with what Glork already asked me about when he analysed my posts. You can charge me with having little success in this game if you want. I've already explained most of my thought processes surrounding both of them. I would add that I've treated CES in the way I usually have in the past, like in the open game c9, and lights out 2, where we were both town.

[Mr Stoofer]

Making Your Mind up

by Bucks Fizz

Winner, Eurovision Song Contest 1981
3 weeks at #1 in the UK chart, April 1981

You gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

You gotta turn it on, and then you gotta put it out
You gotta be sure that it's something everybody's
Gonna talk about
Before you decide that the times arrived
For making your mind up

Don't let your indecision, take you from behind
Trust your inner vision, don't let others change your mind

And then you really gotta burn it up
And make another fly by night
Get a run for your money and take a chance
And it'll turn out right
And when you can see how it's gotta be
You're making your mind up

And try to look as if you don't care less
But if you want to see some more
Bending the rules of the game
Will let you find the one you're looking for
And then you can show that you think you know
You're making your mind up

Don't let your indecision, take you from behind
Trust your inner vision, don't let others change your mind

And now you really gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

And now you really gotta speed it up, and then you gotta slow it down
Coz if you believe that our love can hit the top
You gotta play around
But soon you will find that there comes a time
For making your mind up

For making your mind up
For making your mind up
For making your mind up

[Glork]

You've made much of his supposed certainty and "bluster" on various people, but I don't see how it's particularly different to how he plays normally. For example you went on for ages about how Zindaras gave us pretty much zero material yet Glork changed his mind on him from thinking he was scum to thinking he was town. I thought it was clear he'd switched mainly because of the attitudes towards Zindaras from certain people (mainly you), and whilst I didn't agree with his specific assessment, it was correct.

My god.... somebody else on this website understands me.


I was beginning to think that all of those people had left forever.

[MrBuddyLee]

5) You gave Glork a pass since early D2 and said "If he's scum he's doing better than other times I've seen him." Well, if you're town then he's scum, so this is about the most relevant observation I can find in this game. Please detail what you saw about him that was obvious scum in other games that you don't see in this one.

You continuously misuse the phrase "free pass". You seem to be under the illusion that just because someone hasn't attacked someone much, that means that they haven't been watching them and discerning their alignment. I haven't seen stuff in other games where he was scum that scream "obvious scum". I do think his entire manner is consistent with how I've seen him play as town, as well as his tone. After CDB turned up scum, I was more confident in Glork being town for turning the tide against CDB when he could have easily left him alone and let Thesp be the only pusher, looking like a weirdo. You've made much of his supposed certainty and "bluster" on various people, but I don't see how it's particularly different to how he plays normally. For example you went on for ages about how Zindaras gave us pretty much zero material yet Glork changed his mind on him from thinking he was scum to thinking he was town. I thought it was clear he'd switched mainly because of the attitudes towards Zindaras from certain people (mainly you), and whilst I didn't agree with his specific assessment, it was correct.

You totally dodged this question, Patrick. Please explain to me more specifically how you've managed to differentiate what you see as town Glork in this game from what you've seen as scum Glork in other games. Being "correct" on a player or two is not indicative of alignment... or anything town can use to separate scum from town. I need to know if your reasons for confidence in Glork's alignment are

fake

or

wrong

--they have to be one or the other.

[Patrick]

I don't see how I dodged the question. I've said that his play methods and tone seem genuine and protown to me, obviously meaning that feeling isn't present (for me at least) in games where he's been scum. He often seems to be the driving force/backbone in this game, and although you've thrown alot of doubt on it, I don't particularly see any inconsistency or thought processes that look like they couldn't have happened.

Being "correct" on a player or two is not indicative of alignment... or anything town can use to separate scum from town.

The

timing

of his attack on CDB and manner in which it was carried out makes me think Glork is protown, not merely the fact that he was right on CDB. I feel like I must have said this about a hundred times. It's a similar reason to the one for thinking Thesp was town. The fact that he was right about Zindaras doesn't particularly sway me, I pointed that out when talking about the case you've made against him.

Throw in the reasonable chance that Fritzler investigated him innocent, and I can basically see several reasons to think he's town, and no particularly compelling reasons to think he's scum. I was almost ready to vote for you after you started trying to create ways in which you could move over to me after Mgm voted me, but the posts where you then went back to attacking Glork after he attacked me still put me in a slight amount of doubt. And LO2 has made me paranoid about obvious looking endgame decisions. Right now though, it seems like you're trying to make it sound like I've been incredibly inconsistent when I haven't at all.

[MrBuddyLee]

I guess what you're saying is that you don't have scum tells for Glork, you only have town tells, and in the absence of those he's more likely to be scum. That confused me til your latest clarification.

I read your games as scum and you come across differently than you do in this game. Moreso in the small games, in which you came across as more manipulative and less genuine. In Ben and Jerry you started a little stinky and sounded really townish by the end. If you're scum this game, you've done a fine job of continuing to improve your play.

My dilemma is that the things I find scummiest about Glork, he's just about as likely to do as town:

* Attack me for shoddy reasons.
* Find random people protown or scum with way too much certainty, typically with the same accuracy as if he'd flipped a coin.
* Press wagons D1/D2 of people who end up dead town.
* Base attacks on another player's "bad logic" when that player's actually operating on a combination of gut+logic.
* Change his opinion of people on a dime, not just D1/D2 but deeper into the game as well, seemingly not based on anything in thread.

His strategy is designed to increase his survival rate as both town and scum, because if he plays like rational Glork he gets investigated as scum and NKed as town. He got away with playing like a dink in Space Monkey as mafia, and his D1/D2 play in this game looks like it was intended to cull the flock and keep heat off the godfather. (Willing to lynch sv, Andrew, Adele, Mgm, Thesp, all town) In Space Monkey he paid lip service to suspecting Nightson and CES until he had to do the deed, much like he did on CES this game. Not particularly like he did on CDB this game though. But actually, after I came down with positivity on CDB Glork had no room to hop off, so it's possible he was planning to hop on and off until I did that.

His play since then has been somewhat more townish, but he did push the Nightfall mislynch ("95% sure") and tried to push mine (mano a mano). I'll feel bad if he turns up town, but less so than if I lynch you as town and let him get away with playing the crappier game. My gut tells me Glork is the scumbag, but I can't find a smoking gun to convince myself for sure.

[Patrick]

Stoofy

can you prod Mgm for us? Sorry to ask, but we can't achieve a scum lynch until he starts playing.

[Mr Stoofer]

Done.

[Mgm]

Sorry guys, I had to do a lot of off-line stuff, keep my Egypt game running and other things you're not interested in. Tomorrow, I will start reading from the start of the day and respond to stuff that was left lying around when appropriate. That should catch all the important questions I want to address.