Kingmaker II-Game Over

[RafK]

PJ: Putting it in coloured writing doesn't make it any less putting words in my mouth. You're blatantly straw-manning. Going off on a major attack on something I haven't done- and for the record, I have no idea how *I* would justify attacking you for executing Yos, or even why I would want to. So that's a pretty big strawman.

Town or scum, calm the hell down, and quit with the appeals to emotion.

And for the record, I still think you have created a rush here. I don't think it was clear at all until your LoE went up that VR was your likely execution- and if he turns out to be Kingmaker I hope like buggery he gets to the thread in the next few hours before you pull the trigger. If you're town- and I hope you are, because you being scum and executing a townie today makes this a real mountain to climb to win- then hopefully you'll take on board that your play in twice pushing all the way to deadline for your final LOE is not good. If you're scum, then my comments will hopefully keep you honest a bit and ensure you don't get a completely scrutiny-free ride. Win-win.

[Thok]

Just under 3 hours until the deadline.

[petroleumjelly]

I am confident that anybody reading your posts will see the same things I'm seeing. It's

not

putting "words in your mouth" - it's using the next logical step of the

words you've already said

. I like how you don't bother to actually

respond

to any of the three colored things I've mentioned, and you instead try to wave it away as "putting words in your mouth".

Regardless, your comment of "if he turns out to be Kingmaker" is showing me that you either haven't been reading the game as closely as you claim, or that you are just trying to jab at me. VitaminR claimed to think I was scum yesterday, so there is no way he would have made me King today if he were the Kingmaker.

Execute: VitaminR

.

[Thok]

VitaminR has been executed. He was a

townie

.

With that petroleumjelly steps down from the throne.

It is now night. Assassins, Kingmaker, you have until 3 PM PDT, Sunday, July 29 (roughly one week from this post) to get choices in.

Mod Edit: Certain post execution posts have been deleted.

[Thok]

Zindaras

is found dead, killed nine times for good measure. It is clear that he was a townie.

King Yosarian2

takes the throne once again.

In order to help keep the game moving, I'm setting a deadline for today for 3 pm PDT Wednesday, August 29.

[RafK]

Oh, you have got to be kidding me. SV is executed and comes up scum, VitaminR is executed and comes up town, and the kingmaker manages to reappoint YOS as king? This is where the format sucks... you can do everything you can to win, and the kingmaker screws it up. I thought I was a 100% shot to be king today unless the scum for some reason didn't kill Zindy.

Yos: Execute yourself kthx.

I would say "on the off chance you're actually town, execute PJ for that performance", but honestly, if you're town, there's no reason why a scum PJ wouldn't have executed you. PJ scum only makes sense with you scum.

On the off chance you're actually town, I guess execute ThAdmiral or Thesp or Fritzler or TS. But even then, they're my likelies (along with PJ) for the scum positions besides Yos-scum. So if you're town, do whatever you like. If you're scum, this is probably LYLO and you'll just execute me or whatever other townie for the win :/ Hopefully the mod balanced this with one less scum than I expected due to the mountainous nature of the game, but :/

Man, I cannot believe Yosarian of all people was made King again.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, you have got to be kidding me. SV is executed and comes up scum, VitaminR is executed and comes up town, and the kingmaker manages to reappoint YOS as king? This is where the format sucks... you can do everything you can to win, and the kingmaker screws it up. I thought I was a 100% shot to be king today unless the scum for some reason didn't kill Zindy.

First you think I'm scum because I change my mind and decide VitimanR isn't a good execution choice, now you think I'm scum because I was right about that? Now, if he turned out to be SCUM, I can see how that would make me more suspicious. As it is, though, it REAAALLLY looks like you're reaching here.

Anyway, if you are town, I'm just glad the kingmaker apparently has better scumdar then you apparently do.

Now, if you'd like to actually make a case against someone else, and be useful, that'd be nice.

At the moment, I guess the most obveous suspects are probably Fritzer and theadmeral. However, I'm certanly not limiting my choices this early in the day. We've got 12 people left, and I'd like everyone to list at least the 2 or 3 or so they think are most suspicious, and why.

[RafK]

First you think I'm scum because I change my mind and decide VitimanR isn't a good execution choice, now you think I'm scum because I was right about that?

Um, you were the one campagining in a scummy way for Phoebus/VR to be summarily executed and I was the one opposing that. Then when you had the opportunity to execute him, you instead executed another townie whom had been the subject of less argument. You demonstrated that you were insincere about Phoebus, and you still executed a townie. This is not actually a point in your favour.

From the fact that you didn't insta-execute I take it either we aren't in LYLO or you aren't scum or you're just slow-playing this. Well, the first two at least are good signs.

[Yosarian2]

I thought Phoebus was scummy in the start, yes. I changed my mind when I saw Vitiman R's posts, because all pro-town people should be willing to change their minds on the basis of new evidence, and considering how many posts Vitiman R had compared to how many Phoebus had, there was a heck of a lot of new evidence.

Anyway, getting back to the point, you just randomally listed like 5 people out of the 12 alive, and then didn't really explain why. Again, if you are town, you need to pick two or three people you'd like to see executed, and make a case for why.

[RafK]

I'll see what I can come up with for a re-read "assuming you are town", since obviously there's not a lot of point in trying to get you to execute yourself and unlike the last time you were king, this could be LYLO. In the meantime, go prod other people for opinions. Lurking is damn annoying.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Interesting how you leave Mnowax out of that list. I'm quite dissappointed with the kingmakers choice at this stage of the game.

Vote: Fritzler, Mnowax, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly

I've added PJ because of his horrible performance yesterday, even though he claims he truelly hated to be king yesterday.

[RafK]

mnowax is hard to read, as is his predecessor battle mage, because they're both terrible all the time. I don't read this version of mnowax any different to the previous version, and the previous version was town. As such, the best I can do is to look at Smashy and DR, and DR was a terminal lurker and Smashy... I'm not extremely fond of Smashy's kingship, but it was a nasty position to replace into and I don't think the finish was any worse than the Yos or PJ kingships.

It's not inconceivable that mnowax is scum- he's just in my view not the most likely candidate, just because everyone in the role has been a terminal lurker or just bad, which makes it hard to pick. I also really don't like it that there was such a big push on mnowax right after he got lynched, it stunk of a "hey, here's the easy target again!" thing. As such, if I had to stake the game on one person besides Yos being scum, I couldn't really say mnowax.

It's a tough spot at the moment, though. There's few people who have been "obviously" townie. If I was kingmaker and couldn't pick myself, my king choices for tomorrow at this point in time would probably be out of Lowell, Cavane and MoS. And even that depends on my anti-Yos worldview to some extent, so if Yos breaks the mould today even that's in question.

I think one of the things I really need to do is work out why CES was killed. It made no sense to me at the time. Another "no information" kill? Sure, but there's plenty of available people for that who were even less involved in the play and they can't all be scum. It really only makes sense to kill people who you fear and whose death won't give away information. The scum obviously understand that- Glork and Zindy died the night they could have become king again (e.g. a threat), not earlier, and they'd already proven themselves townie so it wasn't giving away information to kill them. This suggests to me that the scum were afraid of CES as king (which was definitely a possibility given that the kingmaker elected Yos).

Nothing so far in this game has suggested to me that the scum are worried about setting up WIFOM stuff based upon their kills. No-one's really tried to run that kind of thing at all. So let's see where it leads.

CES' last substantive post had gone back on his earlier VR attack. He had suggested Fritzler could be scum. He was mildly critical of Yos in the little argument where Yos attacked Lowell for barning me but didn't attack ThAdmiral for barning him.... said he saw where Yos was coming from but thought he should have been more critical of ThAdmiral. He also asked for Zindy to kill mnowax. He didn't speak much at all that day, so the suggestion would seem to be either that he was killed as a "no information" thing or that it was to protect Fritzler or mnowax... however, since he didn't mention the SV wagon at all, there was no special reason to assume that CES would be seen positively by the kingmaker and become king.

The previous day (Yos kingship) CES had favoured a MoS execution, although he didn't mention it the next day at all. And again, no special reason to think CES would even become king, let alone follow up against MoS.

OK, so figuring out why CES was killed didn't get too far, unless someone's seeing something I'm missing.

[RafK]

I have re-read thesp and some of pablito. I really, really dislike some of pablito's stuff during Yos' kingship (attacking VR, defending SV, attacking mnowax the first and putting it on MoS, although MoS also took responsibility for that wagon). However, while there's a couple of Thesp posts which COULD be scummy: for ecample saying Yos argument against Lowell was excellent but also that Lowell was probably town, might have been having it both ways. Some unexplained FOS when he first came in, which are useless except for pointing at later as evidence you were suspicious of someone.

But overall, I can't nail Thesp as really scummy. In particular, faced with Zindaras' LoE, while he disliked the LoE and campaigned hard for MoS to be added and even attacked Zindy... he put SV as scummiest and opposed a VR execution. The SV stuff could be a bus, faced with the knowledge he had minimal effect on the execution and might as well look good (it's not like he spent much time arguing in favour of it, he attacked MoS non-stop), but I don't see any particular reason for strongly opposiing a VR execution like that in circumstances where it could have still happened.

Despite his predecessor, and despite his non-stop attack on MoS (who I currently lean to town on) I can't really stick Thesp as a high candidate at this time. Still watching, though.

[RafK]

Oh, and before I forget.

I have no idea why I thought this would be LYLO. I think I had it in my head from skimming KM1 recently that the "5 misexecutions = game over" thing was in the design, but this is a different size game. Even if it's 6 scum out of 24 players, we'd be down to 4 out of 12 today. And due to being mountainous it might be 5 scum out of 24, being 3 out of 12 today. There would have had to be 7 scum to start with and 5 still alive to be LYLO today, and I don't consider that likely.

So anything I said which revolved around it being LYLO today, disregard.

[Zindaras]

Bah, humbug.

Have fun.

[Fritzler]

vote: dgb

[Fritzler]

i mean

vote: ts

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Interesting how you leave Mnowax out of that list. I'm quite dissappointed with the kingmakers choice at this stage of the game.

Vote: Fritzler, Mnowax, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly

I've added PJ because of his horrible performance yesterday, even though he claims he truelly hated to be king yesterday.[/quote]

Interesting list there. Care to give reasons for any those choices?

You too, Fritzer. Especally you, as you seem to be near the top of almost everyone's list right now, including mine. Why TS, exactally?

[ThAdmiral]

I can hardly keep up with this game, but I also don't want someone else to have to replace me and read through the excessive amount of pages.
Sorry to all that I didn't complete the task for yesterday. I'm not going to lie and say I

never

got time to do it (although I did have a bit on my plate), just that whenever I had a chance I kept putting it off.

Yesterday's result has made me rethink a few of my suspicions. I will post up who I think is the most suspicious two or three hopefully in a few days.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ThAdmiral, perhaps you could complete your assignment today, to make up for missing out yesterday?

This kingship is going to be interesting.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Interesting how you leave Mnowax out of that list. I'm quite dissappointed with the kingmakers choice at this stage of the game.

Vote: Fritzler, Mnowax, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly

I've added PJ because of his horrible performance yesterday, even though he claims he truelly hated to be king yesterday.[/quote]

Interesting list there. Care to give reasons for any those choices?

You too, Fritzer. Especally you, as you seem to be near the top of almost everyone's list right now, including mine. Why TS, exactally?[/quote]I think I've eleborated quite alot on these people already, but I might as well do it again:

Mnowax is on the list mainly for Rikku's horrible performance, as well as his lack in bassicly anything this game is terribly scummy in my eyes. Fritz is on the list for being Fritz, and because he has yet to contribute anything positive in my eyes. You and PJ are on the list because of my rereads, and because of your kingships.

[Yosarian2]

So...what, any king that executes a pro-town player must be scum? Is that really your logic here?

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I've stated numerous reasons on why I'm not comfortable with your play so far. Your neutral stance on Pooky, preferation of a LL lynch (townie) over a SV lynch (scum), your attack on MoS for defending Pooky while being an anti-pooky-lynch yourself. And yes, your kingship was really horrible. Your reasons for the players in the list were very scummy (MoS was on the list, but wasn't so scummy to you anymore, but people still suspected him, so you left him on. SV because of other people [very convenient to mention him but avoid him at the same time]. The rest of the list was OK, although not really solid IMO).

As for PJ: He continues to use the tactic "last-second-hammer", which allows him to switch his opinion during the last minute so everything turns out the wrong way. Rosso was hammered because of a last thought change. Vitty died, when PJ very little eleborated on his thoughts on his LoE. He could've picked anyone to his liking. Both have turned up town. Also, his sudden 'connection' with SV is something that doesn't sit comfortable with me as well.

So no, it's not only the kingship, it is more.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"] Your reasons for the players in the list were very scummy (MoS was on the list, but wasn't so scummy to you anymore, but people still suspected him, so you left him on. SV because of other people [very convenient to mention him but avoid him at the same time]. [/quote]

I made that very, very clear at the time. My goal in making that list wasn't to list everyone I personally was suspicious of, it was to list the people that other people had suspicions of, because I wanted to get everyone to comment on every one of those people. My main goal there was to get information. And it paid off, as not surprisingly one of those people did end up being scum, which gave us info about them, and because Vitiman R's reactions that day helped change my mind and made me think he was not a good lynch target.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

So you're saying you were bassicly going with the flow, correct?