Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Patrick]

Back from the UK scummers meet, hoped my last post had made that obvious enough but apparently not to all. Read all this super quickly and glad we got someone instead of serrapaladin who is actually playing and might have a hope in hell of being town, though I think his read progression on me makes no sense at all (with his earlier comments on me and what he seems to think about the game, I don't know why he wouldn't be suspicious of me). Mina, I attend meets to play board games, FTF mafia and socialise, not sit at a laptop worrying about forum games - for someone who's been to 3 meets with me I find this question weird at very best.

Anyway, gut impression from superfast skim is that if I've got serrapaladin wrong, the scumgroup may well be Mina/BipolarChesmist. Will give this game some attention later on today and actually get into some specifics. A bunch of people give me town vibes today and I want to decide which of those are too superficial.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I thought "oh I haven't checked in in nearly 24 hours, maybe someone posted!"

No.

No I was wrong.

[Mina]

I can't post anything substantial until tomorrow night because of work. So only brief comment: Patrick, for one thing, I'm pretty sure I've never been at a meet with you while you were in a forum game, to my knowledge, so I have no clue why you think my question is "weird at best." And you're not obligated to post at a meet. However, given I kept refreshing the forums and seeing your teammates show up as the most recent posters, yes, Black Goo clearly making it a priority to keep up with their games while you were completely disconnected from yours started making me really paranoid (particularly since I think I might be underestimating you). Sorry if it's unfair to penalize you for having teammates who care. But at minimum, I'd expect the teammates who are masochistic enough to play forum Mafia at meets to be reading your game.

Also, sorry, the window of time from the start of the game for when you're allowed to have bad scumreads on me has closed (leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

[Mina]

Okay, seriously, I don't know if I'm just the one who's not used to the pace of small games, but if this keeps up, we're going to lose this game. Without a lot of real-time interaction, scum can just coast on their D1 laurels if they left a town impression then. Come on, people, this is Team Mafia. *waves pompoms*

I might be just talking to talk. But Quilford:

1) Can you elaborate on "assertive responses to your question"? Not sure I see what you mean.
2) Re: the thing about semantics which I can't quote on my phone, my point was at the moment you MADE that post, did you find ETL scummy for the semantics disagreement there? If so, why? Or were you just rhapsodizing on scumhunting techniques? Zar found that post noteworthy, but I don't want to say why until you answer.

Patrick, why the hyperbole in "might have a hope in hell of being town"? You seemed a lot more ambivalent on serrapaladin yesterday (in that your read seemed more PoE).

[Patrick]

This game feels like an absolute mess right now. I think I would stake the game on bbmolla being town. I also think Quilford is town, but beyond that is murky as hell.

I think bbmollas mood swings and emotions in this game feel incredibly genuine. I'm explaining this because a bunch of people have him as a question mark. I think if he managed to fake his stress in real time at the end of day 1 I'll nominate him for some kind of oscar, and his tone today feels exactly like a townie who got it wrong after thinking he was incredibly right. His reaching out to Mina/Quilford/me in different posts looks genuine rather than scum buddying up to town.

And I'm willing to believe that maybe the fakehammer played out really town in real time. It just looks so obviously fake to me in real time (wasn't there a vote count on the same page?) that I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of it.

It was fairly obvious to anyone paying attention that it was fake, but why are you unwilling to trust anything that came after it? Most of that clusterfuckery isn't even about the fake hammer anymore.

JohnnyFarrar: I appreciate that you've contributed more so far than serra did for the entire game. Can you talk me through why you're able to make that many scathing comments about my play and somehow have me as the second to bottom on your list? You call me lame and boring several times, you don't like my attack on Alchemist, you think my metadive on him was useless, you don't mind ETLs vote on me, you think I'm posting in a way that doesn't tell you anything about my alignment. You don't seem to mind being abrasive, so why be political about this?

So only brief comment: Patrick, for one thing, I'm pretty sure I've never been at a meet with you while you were in a forum game, to my knowledge, so I have no clue why you think my question is "weird at best." And you're not obligated to post at a meet. However, given I kept refreshing the forums and seeing your teammates show up as the most recent posters, yes, Black Goo clearly making it a priority to keep up with their games while you were completely disconnected from yours started making me really paranoid (particularly since I think I might be underestimating you). Sorry if it's unfair to penalize you for having teammates who care. But at minimum, I'd expect the teammates who are masochistic enough to play forum Mafia at meets to be reading your game.

Also, sorry, the window of time from the start of the game for when you're allowed to have bad scumreads on me has closed (leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

I'll be completely honest, my read on you in this game seems to change almost everytime I look over the thread (last time it was Fenchurch doing this to me). Your amount of effort and greater anxiety today makes me want to think you're town, but I also think you've been given a bunch of fairly easy townreads over the course of the game, and I could see you more than anyone else coasting through to the win if you are scum. Small things niggle me about your play, such as how easily you trusted me yesterday and how you're trying to turn my UK meet absence into something today, and I think if this were just me being a complete idiot, my team would be correcting me. Fenchurch hasn't read anything beyond page 1, but CDB and CES have and neither of them have much trust for you in this game.

Having spoken to zoraster, all I can say is that this game wasn't a priority focus for our team, who were all present at the meet. To answer your question about my scum play, I do think it differs significantly from my town play, and I tend to split people into those who can read me pretty well (some examples are Fate, Porochaz and believe it or not, Uberninja), and those who constantly get hung up on elements of my play that have nothing to do with alignment. All I can suggest for my forum game would be looking at the last two UK Scummer invitationals, which I think you've seen some of anyway.

I think the scum are in (Johnny, BPC, ETL, Mina). A Johnny/BPC would be slightly strange based on the two of them being the only players to go after Mina, who got alot of townreads on day 1. A Johnny/Mina connection doesn't seem likely at all. ETL seems to alternate between sounding genuine and sounding sleazy, but I think would make sense as scum with Johnny. Stubborn town read on serra day 1 and now voting Johnny over a few comments in his catchups that really don't seem worth a vote to me.

PEdit: That was more annoyance than anything. I didn't make the post to convey the impression that I thought serra previously had no chance of being town. It just felt right at the time (yeah, I know). Now I think you might just be town. Do you think I'm heading in the right direction with my post?

[BBmolla]

so

opening night tonight

hopefully time when I'm hungover tomorrow to do things

my team asked if I needed help and so they should be giving thoughts soon

[BipolarChemist]

Bah.

VOTE: serrapaladin

Clarify your read on serra at this point.

I'm gonna vote Serra too, can we just talk about shit for a bit though?

Who do you think partner would be if Serra is scum Mina?

You too.

Disappointed that was the one kill that didn't make Patrick confirmed town.

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah

have you done anything on this?

BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.

Why does this read as scum to you?

(I've started skimming old BPC ISOs. Given my extremely limited sample size so far, if there's an alignment-relevant pattern beyond "his tone always sounds scummy to me!", I haven't seen it yet, although I haven't got to the part of his scum games where he's supposed to start lurking.)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

BPC is so hard to read guys

Thank you

My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.

Yes, I've been lurking. There are a number of personal reasons for it but never-the-less, my feelings towards the lynch yesterday as it was happening was pretty much meh sure. I had a few bits where I pointed out things I took as scummy from alchemist and had been fine with the lynch for the just of the day. If I were in the game more at that point, I would have been fine hammering.

(leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

Yes, this. I don't understand where patrick is coming from with that and that;s about the first time this game he's said something questionable. I'm chalking it up to half assed read coming back but I would like to hear more on this.

[BipolarChemist]

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

This was a while back, but could you elaborate on me hitting on your trains of thought? At the time this just seemed like a nice compliment that made me feel all warm and fuzzy, but it feels a bit awkward without pointing out which trains of thought.

The thing is, in this game, I don't read Alchemists posts and get a gut feeling that he's going to come back as town. I'm nowhere near certain he's scum, but I definitely don't buy that just talking alot makes him town, which you seem to be implying, Mara. I'd like you to back up that read with something more solid.

Maybe more of a curious thought, what do you see when you look at alchemist's post now?

@pat: 412, were you townreading me at this point?

[BipolarChemist]

Was totally gonna go through everyone, but uggggh other work to do and I was gonna do ETL's posts next, but also ugh again because I dun feeeel like it rn.

[BipolarChemist]

Also hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii again.

big question of the day. Who would YOU vote for right now if you could?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Tired and grumpy

JohnnyFarrar: I appreciate that you've contributed more so far than serra did for the entire game.

Here 4 u babe

Can you talk me through why you're able to make that many scathing comments about my play and somehow have me as the second to bottom on your list? You call me lame and boring several times, you don't like my attack on Alchemist, you think my metadive on him was useless, you don't mind ETLs vote on me, you think I'm posting in a way that doesn't tell you anything about my alignment. You don't seem to mind being abrasive, so why be political about this?

As stated in my response to Mina (I think) I sort of came into this game with a mindset (that I still sort of have) that I'm everyone's only scumread in a sea of townreads, so I set out to be nitpicky. My nitpicks with you are enough that I don't necessarily want to call you town, but compared to everyone above you on my suspect list, you're the most likely to talk me out of voting you. I've got a nagging feeling you could just be good scum looking townie compared to messy town, but others looks varying degrees of actually scummy.

BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah

have you done anything on this?

Nope! Seemed like a good idea at the time but my reads on the both of you are decent enough and I'm tired. Unless you think you have an answer?

BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.

Why does this read as scum to you?

Scum being casually against townreads on town players early in the game just makes sense to me. It was the kind of low key protest that didn't draw attention but still tried to leave my slot open for votes.

My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.

Yes, I've been lurking. There are a number of personal reasons for it but never-the-less, my feelings towards the lynch yesterday as it was happening was pretty much meh sure. I had a few bits where I pointed out things I took as scummy from alchemist and had been fine with the lynch for the just of the day. If I were in the game more at that point, I would have been fine hammering.

It's fine that you say that, but you were here at the time, and did nothing to argue for or against it. It's textbook "look guys I'm here! I didn't lurk my way through a horrific town mislynch!" without actually doing anything.

[BipolarChemist]

Your post is assuming Mina is town. Were you townreading Mina at that point and why?

I actually said I was fine with the alchemist lynch near the end of the day, just no inclination to rush the day end at that point (here).

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry I misread that! You mean discrediting townreads on you. Sorry I thought you meant Mina was town in your mind and was confused!

Anyways, at that point serra had really not done much of anything and Mina had a strong townread on serra. I commented saying I don't understand it, we discussed a bit, and even Mina agreed. I feel like, if you're town, you're assuming that discrediting a town read on a town player automatically makes someone scummy, where in this case I was having a null read and did not understand any townreads on the slot.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I actually said I was fine with the alchemist lynch near the end of the day, just no inclination to rush the day end at that point (here).

There were already two claims and there was no counter wagon. That's rushing?

[BipolarChemist]

Well like he was at L-1, dude. I wasn't about to hammer and end day when I still wanted to so some catch-up.

[Mina]

I've been rereading and rethinking a couple of things, but it's past my bedtime, so the results will come tomorrow night. First, the stuff that takes no effort!

1) Patrick, asking about your absence was moreso trying to reassure myself about you (in part because I'd followed some of the links in JF's catch-up and was suddenly getting the same "boring and reasonable" vibe from a few of posts, in part because Ether described you as "tricksy" at the Montreal meet, and in part because I thought I was wrong about everything at the beginning of D2). It's not like anyone would follow me even if I was scum pushing a mislynch based on that reasoning. That last post (along with a dose of sanity from Regfan) made me feel much better--my one question (which I'm asking mostly to dot my is and cross my ts) is what reasons your teammates gave for scumreading me, unless there's a strategic reason for you not to reveal it. Do you mean "heading in the right direction" reads-wise/partnership-wise?

2) BPC, what are your reads right now? They seem conspicuously absent from your catch-ups. Why are you asking me my read on serra in response to a post where I voted serra? (Or Molla's in a post where he said he'd vote serra, for that matter.)

3)

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

I said the one kill, not the one flip. Although a Mara NK doesn't make Patrick scum, the only person scum!Patrick would have ever killed is Mara. Any other kill would've meant the scumteam left confirmed town PR Mara alive to push Patrick's mislynch. (It was pointed out to me your reaction is a scumtell, by the way.)

4)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

Actually, I hadn't got far at all, and I only mentioned it in the first place in the hopes of magically drawing you out of the woodworks, in which case I'd vote you. ^_^ Haven't had time to do more. And now you've gone from "I lurk when I'm scum!" to "I always lurk"?

5)

Mina had a strong townread on serra

Not true. I listed my townreads and said "probably serra" in them.

6) Quilford, why did Reck only comment on BBmolla, anyway? I'd have thought he'd naturally develop reads on non-Molla players from reading closely enough to come to a conclusion about anyone's alignment. (Sorry to bombard you with questions, but you need to be strongly town before I can switch back into overconfident mode.)

[Mina]

7) JF, read on BBmolla. Explanation for why it's not a town read on BBmolla. Go!

[BipolarChemist]

2) BPC, what are your reads right now? They seem conspicuously absent from your catch-ups. Why are you asking me my read on serra in response to a post where I voted serra? (Or Molla's in a post where he said he'd vote serra, for that matter.)

3)

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

I said the one kill, not the one flip. Although a Mara NK doesn't make Patrick scum, the only person scum!Patrick would have ever killed is Mara. Any other kill would've meant the scumteam left confirmed town PR Mara alive to push Patrick's mislynch. (It was pointed out to me your reaction is a scumtell, by the way.)

4)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

Actually, I hadn't got far at all, and I only mentioned it in the first place in the hopes of magically drawing you out of the woodworks, in which case I'd vote you. ^_^ Haven't had time to do more. And now you've gone from "I lurk when I'm scum!" to "I always lurk"?

5)

Mina had a strong townread on serra

Not true. I listed my townreads and said "probably serra" in them.

2) Coming in a bigger way when I read through ISOs in a more detailed fashion. My current stances are lean scum on you, lean town on Johnny, town on ETL, not sure on Patrick, not sure on Quilford, lean town on molla.

And I'm asking you to clarify read on serra, like why do you think scum is there exactly, or at least at that point.

3) I'm probably still misunderstanding, but I don't think any scum team would have not killed mara in this instance? She was basically conf tracker and anybody leaving a PR in would probably be crazy.

Also, how is this a scumtell?

4) What do you mean drawing me out of the woodworks here and voting me? Would me posting right after that post have been a scumtell for you?

And yes, I pretty much always lurk, you'll see this from...every game I play in

5) I was thinking ETL's post calling serra town there I believe, but never-the-less we still had the quick discussion I mentioned there.

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry not ETL either...I swear I remember someone saying it and i was like wtf

[BipolarChemist]

It was Mara!

[JohnnyFarrar]

7) JF, read on BBmolla. Explanation for why it's not a town read on BBmolla. Go!

My read is "This man ain't said anything useful, and now that he was so wrong on day one everyone's ok with him barely posting anything on day 2 because he's sad or something." I've seen nothing even close to content come from him (much less anything townie), and unlike Patrick he doesn't even seem to be playing to win.

Why is he town?

[Quilford]

I might be just talking to talk. But Quilford:

1) Can you elaborate on "assertive responses to your question"? Not sure I see what you mean.

He was very forthright in response to me in #826 and #828. Strikes me as town. I think scum would've been more weaselly.

2) Re: the thing about semantics which I can't quote on my phone, my point was at the moment you MADE that post, did you find ETL scummy for the semantics disagreement there? If so, why? Or were you just rhapsodizing on scumhunting techniques? Zar found that post noteworthy, but I don't want to say why until you answer.

>__> When you say 'that post', which one are you referring to? #784? If so, no, I was explaining my scumhunting approach. ETL thought I was deliberately misunderstanding her when I wasn't, I chase ambiguities in what people say because I think scum often like to hide behind them.

And I'm willing to believe that maybe the fakehammer played out really town in real time. It just looks so obviously fake to me in real time (wasn't there a vote count on the same page?) that I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of it.

It was fairly obvious to anyone paying attention that it was fake, but why are you unwilling to trust anything that came after it? Most of that clusterfuckery isn't even about the fake hammer anymore.

Because when fakehammers are obviously fake, it becomes much harder to tell whether disbelieving reactions are genuine or not? So there's not much point to them? I don't understand.

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

I really wanted an Alchemist lynch. I know, selfish.

6) Quilford, why did Reck only comment on BBmolla, anyway? I'd have thought he'd naturally develop reads on non-Molla players from reading closely enough to come to a conclusion about anyone's alignment. (Sorry to bombard you with questions, but you need to be strongly town before I can switch back into overconfident mode.)

Because I asked him to specifically comment on BBmolla, as I mentioned in #873, because as I've said previously I struggle to read him?

Reck has not being reading this game closely, or if he has he sure hasn't been saying anything about it. When I asked him to take a look at BBmolla, I'm pretty sure it was the first time he'd looked at anyone in the game since RVS ended.

[Quilford]

You know what's funny?

I dislike JF's catchup because it had like no questions.
But I also dislike BPC's catchup because it was nothing but questions.

[Mina]

2) Coming in a bigger way when I read through ISOs in a more detailed fashion. My current stances are lean scum on you, lean town on Johnny, town on ETL, not sure on Patrick, not sure on Quilford, lean town on molla.

And I'm asking you to clarify read on serra, like why do you think scum is there exactly, or at least at that point.

So you think the scumteam is me/Patrick or me/Quilford? If you were reading the posts of your top suspect, then you'd know why I suspected serra, and you'll see it when you read my ISO, anyway.

3) I'm probably still misunderstanding, but I don't think any scum team would have not killed mara in this instance? She was basically conf tracker and anybody leaving a PR in would probably be crazy.

Also, how is this a scumtell?

Town go, "Omigod, I wonder who's going to die tonight and what it means!" Scum have less curiosity about the kill, and go, "Omigod, I hope the claimed tracker actually flips tracker!"

Question: considering the mislynches you'd need to win, would you have killed anyone aside from Mara if you were part of the following scumteams:
-you/JF
-you/ETL
-you/Quilford

4) What do you mean drawing me out of the woodworks here and voting me? Would me posting right after that post have been a scumtell for you?

And yes, I pretty much always lurk, you'll see this from...every game I play in

Yes, it would have been a massive scumtell. And I know much of your inactivity is shitty real-life stuff outside your control. But I still don't like that originally, you were defending yourself by saying you'd be lurking if you were scum, but now that you've lurked, you're saying it's a null tell for you.

[Quilford]

hay meenz :3