8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[ZZZX]

What do you think of GreyICE?

Well he is leaning town. also GIF says he is prob town.
But he still doesnt feel that great. anything other than grey btw?

[ZZZX]

leaning town= prob town but not town enough to bloc him

[Metal Sonic]

leaning town= prob town but not town enough to bloc him

Very good answer. I wouldn't bloc him after how he is acting with Sotty

[Hoopla]

hello. i'm back with a free scheduele to play this game now. sorry for not giving this game the time it deserves.

*reading*

[Metal Sonic]

Post of the day 8 - Monday blues

Having wgeurts in the town block instead of zar is pretty contrarian! I would really appreciate it if you could give the distinction: why wgeurts? Why not zar? Why wgeurts over zar?

3 questions with detailed answers please!

Why not Zar? Zar hasn't done anything vaguely townish. He's made a weak push on me, then disappeared.

Meanwhile, Empire made a couple good posts but his main push was on town (you). It's also been proven in ASOIAF that scum-Empire can make a couple good posts and it's making consistent town posts that separates town game from scum game.

This can be explained by him replacing in recently and not having the time to catch up. What is scummy about that? Is not doing anything different as opposed to not doing anything townish?

Empire's entire ISO has been regarded by many to be [very] town. Can you say that his "town posts" have been inconsistent? What separates town posts from scum posts?

Wgeurts has had fantastic aggression this entire game, comes across as incredibly genuine in points like #438, #478, and has an impressive body of work in a game with a strong playerlist when he doesn't actually have any sort of scum game at all.

How do these traits make him town block material? Isn't aggression normally considered to be a scum trait, why would this make wgeurt's town in this scenario?

wgeurts has done absolutely nothing in this game except for his main push on town (me). By your definition this makes him significantly more negative than Empire. Why is wgeurts getting townread in spite of this? Why is it a negative point in the case of Empire?

Sotty/Kagami have teamed up at a couple of points against Grey, whereas I'm not really seeing anyone who has backed up Grey in the way that I would expect from a scum partner.

Have you seen my posts where I validate Sotty/Kagami's points against Grey? Surprising, because Sotty/Kagami appear to be the "bad guys" and Grey appears to be the "good guy". Will this change your opinion of Grey in any way?

So, if Hoopla is scum, those two alternatives seem like pretty strong partner suggestions AND their flips will be more informative than Hoopla's AND I think there are stronger reasons to call those two scum whereas reasons to call Hoopla scum are pretty much just "useless, lurking".

GreyICE has been shown to townread Hoopla for pretty terrible reasons too! What do you think?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60046

Here it is! I understand glancing through another game is -work- and not necessarily something you have a whole lot of time for, but I think it will help you understand where I'm coming from with my read on him, especially if you don't have experience with him before this game.

Thanks for the share, but I was a mason that game :p

This is called lying, by the by.

wgeurts has made me very sensitive to the word 'lying' so if we all can refrain from using it that would be splendid!

At least

show

how it is a lie. How it contradicts given facts.

You know what we do with liars?

Do you want to be lynching me too, GreyICE?

MS, please get your ass on the GI wagon.

Discussing this at length with my team currently. There are disagreements, so I'm drafting a case first to address those issues. Once we are satisfied, there is going to be a pretty huge slam.

The fact that GreyICE

had no reaction to the [above] shitty "accusation" leveled at me.

is going

very, very, very, very, very, very

well in your favor.

Your townreads are people who call you town. Your scumreads are people who question your alignment.

He's going to be in a bit of a headache when I slam him. If he's yet to resolve most, if not all the issues that I have already enumerated clearly in the game thread plus points of contention that I am discussing with my team.

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town

Hey, Kagami,
Hey Hey, Kagami,

Hey, Kagami,
Hey Hey, Kagami,

This reads list is an utter piece of pure bull shit.

Look, I just chastised Seraphim for posting crap on #219

Your second post was a bit less shit, because you provided your reads, so that we can see where you stand on the players in the game. Unfortunately, it is still shit, because firstly, there was no trajectory on any of your reads, which means that it came out of nowhere. Secondly, there is a lack of accountability, as there was no previous indication on how you were arriving at your reads, we are unable to see your thought processes behind the reads. Thirdly, it is shit, because your reasoning is scarce, less than 9 words for each read, we are unable to gain any new insights from your post. Finally, it is shit, because anybody could come up with that readslist by making a "Town", "Null", and "Scum" section, and randomly fill in the appropriate categories with the names in the playerlist -- it is falsifiable.

It is 700 posts into the game so

garbage like this is not acceptable.

I understand that you're messing with GreyICE but

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and condone this shit, so pull yourself together.

I expect better from Kagami. Town Kagami.

But, if you don't care about that, what do you think of Kagami's "reads list" and his justification he gave above?

Yeah, I don't care about that. And Kagami's reads list is Seraphim-level. Booboo.

If we fail to lynch scum in the first/2nd lynch I believe we should use a vengeful style for the coming lynches.

it might feel stubid but its the only way to survive later on since scum make up just a little less than 50% of the town. refusal of this is pure anti town/scum

ThoughtsL?

The vengeful style is fucking stupid. end.

______

In order:

Town Block

Metal Sonic
ZZZX
ABR
Zar

Town

EddieFenix
Nachomamma
wgeurts (I WAS scumreading him but relativity <<<<<)
Kagami

Scum

GreyICE
Sotty
Seraphim
Hoopla

[Metal Sonic]

sorry for not giving this game the time it deserves.

please apologise to the team because you will die at some point in time. no exceptions.

[Metal Sonic]

*your team

[Nachomamma8]

The time for talking is over. It's time to lynch Kagami, boys and girls.

[Nachomamma8]

Zar: 648 is my explanation for the reads change on Seraphim, let me know if you need that explained more explicitly.

[quadz08]

Votecount 1.11

Kagami (4) - wgeurts, ZZZX, Nachomamma8, GreyICE
Hoopla (2) - Seraphim, Metal Sonic
GreyICE (2) - Kagami, EddieFenix
Sotty7 (1) - Albert B. Rampage
Seraphim (1) - Sotty7
EddieFenix (1) - Hoopla

Not Voting (1) - Zar

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

wgeurts is V/LA until 4/7.

Deadline is 4/9 at 6 PM Eastern, which is in (expired on 2015-04-09 18:00:00).

[Nachomamma8]

Metal Sonic:

Zar has been in the game for five days. During these five days of game time, he has made four posts. 5 days is more than enough time to get your bearing in the game and make an impression, but Zar hasn't... Why? How long will you give him a free pass based on Empire's play which, unfortunately, wasn't that fantastic? Not doing anything is different from not doing anything townish, you're correct, but Zar also hasn't done anything townish. This is problematic for me.

Empire's ISO has been regarded by many as "very town". Who are these people? The people who can read Empire best and are in this game (Tammy, Llamarble, Mina, Regfan, me) are either on his team, not involved with this game, or are on my team. My team is not reading him as town. This is something important to remember if my slot ever flips.

[Nachomamma8]

Empire's ISO this game is fine: the major problem is that his ISO only existed for two days. Empire can fake his town game for a couple days, a week, but every post he makes is a slog. Everything that he talks about this game is also easy, convenient to talk about as scum or bad: his townreads on ZZZX and ABR were town, and it's easy to talk about why town is town. His scumread on Silverwolf (the correct one) was never pursued. His two scumreads (you and wgeurts) were bad and ignored some of the signals that you two were giving off early game that screamed town. It's also a big red flag to me that Empire didn't take a bigger investment in this game before he left: he considers himself one of the best in the site at reading me. Why didn't he interact with me more before he left? Why didn't he post a big leaving post before he went? Why didn't he say anything?

[Nachomamma8]

Whoever taught you that aggression is typically a scum trait doesn't actually know how to play the game: aggression is a pretty strong town trait for inexperienced players especially. I hold Empire to a higher standard than I hold wgeurts to because Empire has more experience: I expect Empire and Sotty to see why you're town despite some of your post content being more whimsical than logical. I don't expect wgeurts to recognize the same things they should be seeing.

[Nachomamma8]

Grey bussing Kagami/Sotty/Hoopla is possible. If this is the case, then we should let him bus Kagami/Sotty/Hoopla and then lynch him. I can outline in greater detail later why I think that he's not bussing, but I see no need for that now when he shouldn't even be on the table.

[Metal Sonic]

Nice posts, thanks for your contribution to Nachomamma trust fund!

During these five days of game time, he has made four posts. 5 days is more than enough time to get your bearing in the game and make an impression, but Zar hasn't... Why?

Why? I don't know. Is that supposed to be a scummy thing? Remember that Zar/Empire's team is one of the stronger ones, I'm expecting good play, regardless of alignment. A lack of play, is also probably not due to alignment!

How long will you give him a free pass based on Empire's play which, unfortunately, wasn't that fantastic?

Good question. Zar *just* checked in though, so I think we can keep that worry in the backburner. I would have given him as much as a free pass as I have given you, if not more (due to Empire's credit balance), until your #612 which is also about 5 days?

Empire's ISO has been regarded by many as "very town". Who are these people?

I'm making the assumption that those who have had Empire in their "town block" had the aforementioned belief. This includes ZZZX, myself, ABR, EddieFenix, wgeurts, {GreyICE, Sotty, Seraphim} <my scumreads. So apparently, most of the game!

The people who can read Empire best and are in this game (Tammy, Llamarble, Mina, Regfan, me) are either on his team, not involved with this game, or are on my team. My team is not reading him as town. This is something important to remember if my slot ever flips.

Noted! Only Llamarble is on your team though, but one expert is enough

Why didn't he interact with me more before he left?

Uh, I think that it's because you weren't really in the game, but I might be wrong!

Why didn't he post a big leaving post before he went? Why didn't he say anything?

No idea lol.

Zar, are you able to telepath to Empire about this?

Grey bussing Kagami/Sotty/Hoopla is possible.

Grey isn't bussing Hoopla! We are lynching her independently!

[Nachomamma8]

I think Grey's biggest fault as town is that he gets distracted too easily by personalities he clashes with. He did make a mistake and town read Hoopla for a moment, but his town read of Hoopla didn't hold up very long. I have no problems with that at all because if a Hoopla wagon forms and we need Grey's vote, we will get it.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami's list is weird if she's town. If she's scum and my picture of the game is correct, its strong.

SCUM
GreyICE - This is scum's likeliest mislynch for today. She will not move from her tunnelfest with GI, despite her being aware of tunnelfests being the only way that town could possibly lose a nightless game.

Hoopla - Scumbuddy. Kagami can have her scumbuddy in this slot because it's very unlikely she will have to vote her thanks to GreyICE tunnelfest. This is also the lurkiest of her scumbuddies, so Kagami can change her Hoopla read once Hoopla posts if it looks like she might be in danger.

MIDDLE GROUP
ZZZX - Town, should be universally recognized as town.
Metal Sonic - Town, should be universally recognized as town.
Wgeurts - Town, should be universally recognized as town.

If a good town block becomes universal, scum lose. Keeping doubt about this block keeps the doubt alive.

Nacho - I am diametrically opposed to all positions she has pushed this game. Having me as a null read AND making no effort to reach out to me is unacceptable.

Zar - This is her scumbuddy that will go the distance. Keeping him here avoids him getting sucked into the Kagami/GreyICE fight.

TOWN -
ABR - couldn't have the whole town block as null, could she? Important person that she needs to keep off her wagon.

Sotty - Scumbuddy most likely to be mislynched.

Seraphim
EddieFenix

^^Lowest producing members of town. She wants to keep them in her town block so that they are tied to her when she goes down.

[Nachomamma8]

If good players are not playing, they don't deserve a place in a town block. Ever. Good players need to affirm and reaffirm their place in the town pantheons, and the Zar/Empire slot have not done that.

Also an expert: fferyllt.

He could have called me out before he left: "hey Nacho, you aren't doing shit and I'm on my way out, what do you think about the game?". But he didn't.

[Metal Sonic]

I'm doing over a detailed read of the thread to catch up. Currently up to page 20. Bear with me, I will be fully caught up by tomorrow and have some team insight as well then. The reads wil be updated accordingly should there be any changes.

This is what I have so far:

READS

TOWN
ABR
Metal Sonic
GreyICE
wgeurts
ZZZX
Nachomamma
Hoopla
Kagami/Silver
Eddie
Seraphim
Sotty
SCUM

Spoiler: Reads

Albert B. Rampage.

Think ABR is pretty obvtown. The whole wgeurts/SW dilemma betweeen 74-75 is aggressive and something I don't think scum would bank on early on, specially if you're trying to gather enough cred to look appeasing. I also like how ABR is took the lead in directing the comments in 166-168. Overall, all of his activity comes across as actively analyzing motivations and trying to get into the mindset of the players reacing (like 204, and him trying to sort out Seraphim's behavior in 369, 371, 373, and the analysis of 399).

Metal Sonic

I've been giving some thought to Empire's concerns on MetalSonic's lie in 18, and I think he would have reasons to lie regardless of alignment about the tokens. I can see Metal Sonic's comment onto Sotty in 127 as showing transparency of thought process and interest in discerning her alingment. I think I can follow MetalSonic's line of thought regarding wgeurts in #136 as of why it would be something to find suspicious (particularly, if you take into consideration wgeurts himself admittedly made a conscious post that would lead him to be pursued). Similar thoughts with 236, especially liking that it seems Metal Sonic is tryig to figure out alignments. some of his steams of consciousness come across as unfiltered and natural (like 240) so he gives off a relaxed feel which I would associate with town.

GreyICE

I think GreyICE's comment to ZZZX's thoughts in 102 reads town on tone. The point on ZZZX's content to contribution ratio in 104 was accurate and valid. I can follow the thought process to pursue Sotty from 119 and the reasoning provided in 140 to strengthen the read. It feels like GreyICE has read between the lines in sotty's response. Thought his 214 regarding sotty seemed like a very detailed, organized case on why Sotty is likely scum here and GreyICE's analysis comes accross as genuine and unbiased in it. And ICE's observation into Eddie's reaction in 317 seems fairly accurtate with what I was thinking so far.

wgeurts

I liked his 64 looks better, re: the questioning directed to MS and ZZZX, along with 67, where wgeurts pressuring ABR for an explanation for his vote on SilverWolf. I also do like how in 69 he's basically demanding for an explanation to the MS early town reads. I didn't understand why if wgeurts was trying to pick on ABR's brain in 71 he gave him ABR a cop-out to respond to him early on if he wanted to poke him for an answer. I get he you thought that it wasn't enough to change his vote from ABR then, but you did give him an explanation yourself to get out of the question asking him. Also, 139 is something I can see coming from town!wgeurts (Re: ABR vote push), since it's something I would have done to a slot with player I've been in a game before and that I'd have enough comparative meta to use as a reference. (Re: pushing ABR for a reasoning), even if I do not agree with the reasoning he's using to vote MetalSonic which seems to stem from MS's suspicions of him. I do agree with GI who said it looks like wgeurts seems to be trying to sort the game out (even if it's somehwat unconventional). TBH by 296 I'm starting to get a bit bored by the wgeurts's tunnel onto Metal Sonic for scumreading him and would like to see that slot concentrating on scumhunting elsewhere.

ZZZX

Still thinking town, but not as strong as a read as I had caught my impression during my skim. 19 I felt was a genuine town-tell, like a stream of consciousness that I think ZZZX wouldn't have slipped naturally if he were mafia. While I am townreading MetalSonic, thought the read handed out in 58 seemed rather pedestrian. I didn't like ZZZX's immediate reaction to Albert's vote on wgeurts in 76 and 78; especially because it looked like ZZZX is quick to deflect from focusing on scumhunting to use an argument like a "bad play" to vote. The reasoning is less related to thinking ABR is scum and more of a dislike of playstyle, which is an easier route to go if you're scum because it's a mental way to justify pushing a player. I also didn't like the reaction stemming from GreyICE's 102... particularly the feel of a "No, You" kind of response and a reactionary vote and consequent reactionary scumread haded in 129-130. I did like ZZZX's questioning of Nacho's actions, since hiss comments are directly related to Sotty GreyICE but as he points out, Nacho votes away without explaining where the vote's coming from instead.

Nachomamma

,
I'm found Nacho a bit scummy because of his unexplained shift on Seraphim. I also feel Nacho has thrown in a few towntells early on that aren't hard to fake townread for 38 but I feel like he's competent enough to manipulate enough to use such a comment to appear townish. As for 133 I don't really think it's alignment relevant, as I think scum!Nacho would know how to avoid GreyICE picking a fight with Sotty for instance if they're partners. Of what I read so far, the only thing I'm liking from Nacho so far is 157, as it would appear that he's analyzed what wgeurts had said about to try to understand the MS/wgeurts argument so
181-183 look like fairly transparent streams of consciousness.

Hoopla

Hoopla's SW vote in 225 and relegating to sheeping nacho onto that wagon early and shifting the responsibility of the entry vote "wanting to help nacho" seems convenient? I find her focus on theory rather than hunt suspicious, but I'm less convinced on Hoopla based on some of the people that have gone after her.

SilverWolf/Kagami

I didn't like Silverworf's entrance in posts 6 and 55, to me seems a bit overexplanatory and like a post someone who's concerned of their own image would be focused on. As far as Kagami goes, in 351 the logic behind Sotty flipping town because GreyICE wants to lynch her looks convoluted, especially because it seems to be based in the flawed assumption that sotty can't be scum because GreyICE thinks she's lying and apparently in a poor manner and if sotty's a legendary scum player then the first assumption can't be true?.

EddieFenix

The stated reasons in 207 to call GreyICE scum seem superficial and OMGUSsy; no explanation for the wgeurts scumread provied. Eddie's 217-230 look like a Chainsaw onto GreyICE after the Sotty case.

Seraphim.

Still think the list of empty reads in 219 followed by the SW vote feels like easy contribution. 348 I don't really like how Seraphim has then changed his mind on Sotty as the wagon picked interest, just like ABR pointed out. 485 from ABR is spot on on some of the inconsistencies in Seraphim's reasoning to vote. I also don't really like how Seraphim tried to shift the focus of being questioned as opposed to interacting when he said

Sotty

Sotty's 112 feels like an awful self-aware post. I mean, mostly because the entry is about her activity level and a side-comment on Nacho's entry comment on her. Stemming from my limited experience from the Wire, I would've expected Sotty to be more engaging questioning to discern alignments and scumhunting since in my limited experience with her in the Wire, she seemed a more straightforward player there than she's being here. Also, the deflection to Hoopla of GreyIcE's vote on her strikes me like a semantical argument I'd expect from a compentent player that can't find a better reason to vote. I also don't like her reaction to the suspicions in 208, since I don't see how GI has been shifting the goalpost, as sotty seems to be accusing GI for.

read and analysed all of this. pretty salient. = town.

not gonna do another wall because lack of time and i dont think people wanna read all that anyway

[Metal Sonic]

i'm "meh" on kagami. some of her points against GreyICE are valid but some of her posts are bad beyond bad. no way i can put her in a town block. meh.

[Metal Sonic]

and im still top poster

i've already cut down on so much of my posting.......

[Metal Sonic]

hello. i'm back with a free scheduele to play this game now. sorry for not giving this game the time it deserves.

*reading*

I hope you're still reading! It's going to hit 3 hours!

[Metal Sonic]

hello. i'm back with a free scheduele to play this game now. sorry for not giving this game the time it deserves.

*reading*

I hope you're still reading! I await your valuable insights on this rich and vibrant game, for the greatest of minds!

[Nachomamma8]

i'm "meh" on kagami. some of her points against GreyICE are valid but some of her posts are bad beyond bad. no way i can put her in a town block. meh.

Kagami is the right play.

[Metal Sonic]

she's not coming...