8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Kagami]

ABR is town by play independently, but most notably because he forced you to back down on your hoopla town-read. There's no "tacked on."

Yes, I do think the players who have shown some critical thinking re: your alignment are town for it.

I would love to hear the reasons for both your scumreads and townreads. I've read your iso many times at this point, and I haven't seen reasons beyond touchy-feelies.

[GreyICE]

Oh, really? No scum, you first. I have nearly 100 posts in this thread, a constant, unbroken train of thought from beginning to end. You have motherfucking

Silverwolf

who made two shitposts then replaced out. We then get you, who has used your shit tunnel as an excuse to give nothing. And now

you

want

me

to provide reads?

Does anyone think this is town, class?

[GreyICE]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

[Metal Sonic]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

She replaced out from the entire game. Non alignment indicative. It's a dick move to accuse her of scum replacing out and you know it.

[Metal Sonic]

I mean all other reasons are fair game

[GreyICE]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

She replaced out from the entire game. Non alignment indicative. It's a dick move to accuse her of scum replacing out and you know it.

She replaced out of one single game. She's still active in two others. This is perfectly fair information to use.

And it's not like that's the ONLY reason SilverWolf's posts were scummy, or why I think Kagami is scum. But when you have a player who is known uncomfortable playing scum replacing out of one single game while remaining in others, that is alignment-relevant information.

[Metal Sonic]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

She replaced out from the entire game. Non alignment indicative. It's a dick move to accuse her of scum replacing out and you know it.

She replaced out of one single game. She's still active in two others. This is perfectly fair information to use.

And it's not like that's the ONLY reason SilverWolf's posts were scummy, or why I think Kagami is scum. But when you have a player who is known uncomfortable playing scum replacing out of one single game while remaining in others, that is alignment-relevant information.

She quit team mafia. So it is unfair information.

If she like, swapped with a teammate who is known to likes to play as scum or whatever, then it would be a perfectly valid point. And then we can kill the slot even without your arguments in here.

But that isn't the case.



There's one thing about using precise strikes and another thing about hitting below the belt

[Metal Sonic]

It is ethically wrong and I am not even going to entertain that shit

[GreyICE]

Metal Sonic, there is one defining rule of mafia here. It is "play to win". Not "play to be chivalrous". For fucks sake, if every scum play was chivalrous and upstanding, we wouldn't even have a game of mafia.

Now, if a player who hates to play scum replaces out of this particular game, but remains very active in other games, that influences my read on them. Period. And I will say so.

I have had scum use funerals, work, deaths in the family, romantic relationships, and other "tragedies" to justify their lurking, their play, or other things. I used to give those chivalry and respect, until they were repeatedly used to manipulate me. And that was fair, because this is not a game of honor, it is a game of mafia. Read my signature.

[GreyICE]

As for who played unethically, SilverWolf was receiving heat for her posts not being townie, and for being uncomfortable and being a player known to be uncomfortable as scum. SilverWolf chose to respond to those allegations by replacing out of this game while remaining in others. Not across-the-board flaking, not generally lower inactivity, just flaking from one specific game. And now the questions about her play will never be answered. In point of fact her replacement completely derailed the wagon on her, and gave Kagami a grace period. Was that ethical? I would say if any "unethical" things occurred here it was that, and we are left only to interpret what that action means.

But, if you don't care about that, what do you think of Kagami's "reads list" and his justification he gave above?

[Metal Sonic]

Do you have any thoughts that happened during your enormous lurk-fest?

You are using this "wagon" on me as an excuse to avoid everything else that happens in this game. You get to be a

Tabula Rasa

by tunneling. Is your plan to hope to get out of it on day 2? Or just salvage the SilverWolf slot by pushing one town lynch before you go down, and leave the least information possible in your ISO?

Who is town, Kagami? Who is scum? Do you have a town read on Seraphim? I know you have one on Sotty because "I voted for her" which is hilarious in and of itself.

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town


Now it's your turn.

Is that in order? Because it seems like you put the town block in the middle, and the "town" at the bottom section

[Albert B. Rampage]

Considering a Kagami vote right now. Waiting for Sotty and Hoopla.

[Metal Sonic]

Why would you wait for them? Aren't they both scum?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Because Hoopla posted no content and Sotty has shown no aggression.

[Metal Sonic]

So we should lynch them!

[Metal Sonic]

Why do we wait for them if we want to lynch them?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm pressuring them to post more content for us to have more to talk about. o.O

[Zar]

I'm doing over a detailed read of the thread to catch up. Currently up to page 20. Bear with me, I will be fully caught up by tomorrow and have some team insight as well then. The reads wil be updated accordingly should there be any changes.

This is what I have so far:

READS

TOWN
ABR
Metal Sonic
GreyICE
wgeurts
ZZZX
Nachomamma
Hoopla
Kagami/Silver
Eddie
Seraphim
Sotty
SCUM

Spoiler: Reads

Albert B. Rampage.

Think ABR is pretty obvtown. The whole wgeurts/SW dilemma betweeen 74-75 is aggressive and something I don't think scum would bank on early on, specially if you're trying to gather enough cred to look appeasing. I also like how ABR is took the lead in directing the comments in 166-168. Overall, all of his activity comes across as actively analyzing motivations and trying to get into the mindset of the players reacing (like 204, and him trying to sort out Seraphim's behavior in 369, 371, 373, and the analysis of 399).

Metal Sonic

I've been giving some thought to Empire's concerns on MetalSonic's lie in 18, and I think he would have reasons to lie regardless of alignment about the tokens. I can see Metal Sonic's comment onto Sotty in 127 as showing transparency of thought process and interest in discerning her alingment. I think I can follow MetalSonic's line of thought regarding wgeurts in #136 as of why it would be something to find suspicious (particularly, if you take into consideration wgeurts himself admittedly made a conscious post that would lead him to be pursued). Similar thoughts with 236, especially liking that it seems Metal Sonic is tryig to figure out alignments. some of his steams of consciousness come across as unfiltered and natural (like 240) so he gives off a relaxed feel which I would associate with town.

GreyICE

I think GreyICE's comment to ZZZX's thoughts in 102 reads town on tone. The point on ZZZX's content to contribution ratio in 104 was accurate and valid. I can follow the thought process to pursue Sotty from 119 and the reasoning provided in 140 to strengthen the read. It feels like GreyICE has read between the lines in sotty's response. Thought his 214 regarding sotty seemed like a very detailed, organized case on why Sotty is likely scum here and GreyICE's analysis comes accross as genuine and unbiased in it. And ICE's observation into Eddie's reaction in 317 seems fairly accurtate with what I was thinking so far.

wgeurts

I liked his 64 looks better, re: the questioning directed to MS and ZZZX, along with 67, where wgeurts pressuring ABR for an explanation for his vote on SilverWolf. I also do like how in 69 he's basically demanding for an explanation to the MS early town reads. I didn't understand why if wgeurts was trying to pick on ABR's brain in 71 he gave him ABR a cop-out to respond to him early on if he wanted to poke him for an answer. I get he you thought that it wasn't enough to change his vote from ABR then, but you did give him an explanation yourself to get out of the question asking him. Also, 139 is something I can see coming from town!wgeurts (Re: ABR vote push), since it's something I would have done to a slot with player I've been in a game before and that I'd have enough comparative meta to use as a reference. (Re: pushing ABR for a reasoning), even if I do not agree with the reasoning he's using to vote MetalSonic which seems to stem from MS's suspicions of him. I do agree with GI who said it looks like wgeurts seems to be trying to sort the game out (even if it's somehwat unconventional). TBH by 296 I'm starting to get a bit bored by the wgeurts's tunnel onto Metal Sonic for scumreading him and would like to see that slot concentrating on scumhunting elsewhere.

ZZZX

Still thinking town, but not as strong as a read as I had caught my impression during my skim. 19 I felt was a genuine town-tell, like a stream of consciousness that I think ZZZX wouldn't have slipped naturally if he were mafia. While I am townreading MetalSonic, thought the read handed out in 58 seemed rather pedestrian. I didn't like ZZZX's immediate reaction to Albert's vote on wgeurts in 76 and 78; especially because it looked like ZZZX is quick to deflect from focusing on scumhunting to use an argument like a "bad play" to vote. The reasoning is less related to thinking ABR is scum and more of a dislike of playstyle, which is an easier route to go if you're scum because it's a mental way to justify pushing a player. I also didn't like the reaction stemming from GreyICE's 102... particularly the feel of a "No, You" kind of response and a reactionary vote and consequent reactionary scumread haded in 129-130. I did like ZZZX's questioning of Nacho's actions, since hiss comments are directly related to Sotty GreyICE but as he points out, Nacho votes away without explaining where the vote's coming from instead.

Nachomamma

,
I'm found Nacho a bit scummy because of his unexplained shift on Seraphim. I also feel Nacho has thrown in a few towntells early on that aren't hard to fake townread for 38 but I feel like he's competent enough to manipulate enough to use such a comment to appear townish. As for 133 I don't really think it's alignment relevant, as I think scum!Nacho would know how to avoid GreyICE picking a fight with Sotty for instance if they're partners. Of what I read so far, the only thing I'm liking from Nacho so far is 157, as it would appear that he's analyzed what wgeurts had said about to try to understand the MS/wgeurts argument so
181-183 look like fairly transparent streams of consciousness.

Hoopla

Hoopla's SW vote in 225 and relegating to sheeping nacho onto that wagon early and shifting the responsibility of the entry vote "wanting to help nacho" seems convenient? I find her focus on theory rather than hunt suspicious, but I'm less convinced on Hoopla based on some of the people that have gone after her.

SilverWolf/Kagami

I didn't like Silverworf's entrance in posts 6 and 55, to me seems a bit overexplanatory and like a post someone who's concerned of their own image would be focused on. As far as Kagami goes, in 351 the logic behind Sotty flipping town because GreyICE wants to lynch her looks convoluted, especially because it seems to be based in the flawed assumption that sotty can't be scum because GreyICE thinks she's lying and apparently in a poor manner and if sotty's a legendary scum player then the first assumption can't be true?.

EddieFenix

The stated reasons in 207 to call GreyICE scum seem superficial and OMGUSsy; no explanation for the wgeurts scumread provied. Eddie's 217-230 look like a Chainsaw onto GreyICE after the Sotty case.

Seraphim.

Still think the list of empty reads in 219 followed by the SW vote feels like easy contribution. 348 I don't really like how Seraphim has then changed his mind on Sotty as the wagon picked interest, just like ABR pointed out. 485 from ABR is spot on on some of the inconsistencies in Seraphim's reasoning to vote. I also don't really like how Seraphim tried to shift the focus of being questioned as opposed to interacting when he said

Sotty

Sotty's 112 feels like an awful self-aware post. I mean, mostly because the entry is about her activity level and a side-comment on Nacho's entry comment on her. Stemming from my limited experience from the Wire, I would've expected Sotty to be more engaging questioning to discern alignments and scumhunting since in my limited experience with her in the Wire, she seemed a more straightforward player there than she's being here. Also, the deflection to Hoopla of GreyIcE's vote on her strikes me like a semantical argument I'd expect from a compentent player that can't find a better reason to vote. I also don't like her reaction to the suspicions in 208, since I don't see how GI has been shifting the goalpost, as sotty seems to be accusing GI for.

[Metal Sonic]

Did you do your reads before your reasons?

[ZZZX]

Do you have any thoughts that happened during your enormous lurk-fest?

You are using this "wagon" on me as an excuse to avoid everything else that happens in this game. You get to be a

Tabula Rasa

by tunneling. Is your plan to hope to get out of it on day 2? Or just salvage the SilverWolf slot by pushing one town lynch before you go down, and leave the least information possible in your ISO?

Who is town, Kagami? Who is scum? Do you have a town read on Seraphim? I know you have one on Sotty because "I voted for her" which is hilarious in and of itself.

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town


Now it's your turn.

Is that in order? Because it seems like you put the town block in the middle, and the "town" at the bottom section

you are telling me that:

Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)

are the towniest 2 players in teh game.... uhhh......

[ZZZX]

btw @sonic any change in your read list so far? I am interested to see your opinion so far afte rhte latest posts.

[ZZZX]

I think I read this quite a few pages back but I will actually say it again.

If we fail to lynch scum in the first/2nd lynch I believe we should use a vengeful style for the coming lynches.

it might feel stubid but its the only way to survive later on since scum make up just a little less than 50% of the town. refusal of this is pure anti town/scum

ThoughtsL?

Also I have started to read and I am like kagami even less. posts feel like scum trying to find anykind of thing to post about.

Metal is still Metal. Is town

Eddy... feels town so far. GIF says he is strong town (if my memory served right?) but i find him just normal town.

nacho is null. not sure about him anymore

Zar is the same as eddy

this is what i can say form the ulti quick skim

[ZZZX]

Also hoopla: IF you are town in this game then you should replace it out and switch with a team mate. Yes it is ironic and bad coming from me the master lurker but you see... this game is a nightless. Its not a power roles game wher eu can craft a plan. the game getting into later stages is always a bad thing. so either active it up to replace it. oh and his posts are scummish so i dont midn lynching him.

[Metal Sonic]

What do you think of GreyICE?

[Metal Sonic]

btw @sonic any change in your read list so far? I am interested to see your opinion so far afte rhte latest posts.

In short,

The biggest change is that GreyICE was very town but I am having serious doubts = is scum