Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Marquis]

I have a lot of large theme scumgames that are much better than that Mini Theme! IIRC last summer like 6/8 of my large themes were scum! :P

And I would mention the other less common side of my meta here but I actually can't remember a recent completed large towngame on this account off the top of my head! :/ For the record, since I've already made it semi-public, I was FIN3 in Hilariously Unbalanced 2 though, so that kind of counts if you can get past the whole me-trying-to-pretend-I'm-me-but-not-me thing.!

It's really weird that you guys especially Tammy aren't just ignoring me as usual and focusing on people she knows well, but I guess I should like bask in the moment or something!? IDK!

And I almost forgot about the exclamation points this post so good thing I remembered before hitting submit!

[Espeonage]

Okay, I'd like to know what espeonage and mastin's teams think of marquis. (And anyone else who can read him, but those are the two teams with the most experience with him I think.)

hito - boon has the same deadline as bane, right?

I can ask.

[Untrod Tripod]

I thought you were but I cannot find you even mentioning him in your ISO.

I will take my dunce cap and sit over here now.

let's find it though so you can add the target to your spreadsheet of interactions

I just said it does not exist.

You want me to find something that does not exist...

To put it in a spreadsheet...that does not exist...

I assumed you were referring to a post where I was talking to someone other than DV, rather than just inventing posts in your mind

and don't act like you don't have a spreadsheet

I know you do

...as in my fantasies....

[Tammy]

Hi espy.

I'm the queen of sass, please don't try to take my crown.

Do me a favor? Read zar and tell me what you think?

I have about ten minutes until I have to get ready and head in to uni, I will not have time until I get back.

dw I did see the wagon and it was on my todo list.

Also not taking your crown, but it's important to walk in an SO's shoes so that the bonds between you get tighter.

@DV, Join me on Zar. If you think Bulba's scum discrediting emotional play, then he's indirectly wanting to discredit Tammy. We all know she made an emotional plea to vote Zar based on the Empire stuff. The only reason to do that as scum is Bulba/Zar.

I don't see how that's discrediting me at all. He's agreeing with my push and calling me super town. And, sure, I can get emotional and make emotional pushes but anyone who's played with me knows that I am also very capable of making logical pushes and reads once I step back, and considering that Bulbazack has seen me do exactly that, I don't know what he thinks he would gain by discrediting me indirectly and doubt that would be his intent.

[Marquis]

Marquis's awkward speech stands out.

Which one!? I'm thinking there's probably a lot of awkward speeches you could be referring to so far!

[Marquis]

Also, we can get a Boon, and you know who likes Boons? This guy.

[Marquis]

...I tried to make a joke but Google could barely find anything for that pairing so it fell a little flat! :(

[Marquis]

no espe

let's go down the rabbit hole

I really like this post! It could be that I'm just being drawn in by the sass but IDK, I just like it!

[Marquis]

Ok so I keep seeing Titus making posts like "sorry" and "derp Titus" and "this is another post that acknowledges I was wrong about something right after someone made a comment on it instead of 5-10 pages of long drawn out argument afterward" and while my last game with her she was scum and pushed moonlogic through while ignoring anything to the contrary, it's really jarring to see because of how much it clashes with her overall mafia personality or at least what I think it's like!

UT mentioned it earlier in this game, the whole "I have mafia ~figured out~" thing and it feels like it could be that Titus is trying to shy away from the blowback she's getting for that facet of her personality! I just can't figure out if it's town Titus reacting to a different environment/standard or trying to do better/be more appealing which kind of makes sense mirrorwise or scum trying to lessen the negative attention!

[hitogoroshi]

VC 18 (Minor Day 1, VC 18)

Bane:

Target player's Sign is revealed.

(5)

Zar

: Tammy, Bulbazak, Titus, GuyInFreezer, Shadoweh [L-5]
(3)

Gammagooey:

ActionDan, vezokpiraka, Marquis
(2)

vezokpiraka:

T S O, ChannelDelibird
(1)

Marquis:

Gammagooey
(1)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail
(1)

Untrod Tripod:

Cheetory6
(1)

Titus:

mastin2

(5)

No Bane Vote:

Antihero, Aronis, Espeonage, Untrod Tripod, Zar

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to Bane. Deadline is Sunday, April 5th at 9 PM CST.

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

mastin2 may be V/LA in the near future.

hito - boon has the same deadline as bane, right?

Correct. The given deadline is for all of the Minor Day, so if a Bane majority is achieved, you'll have whatever is left of the timer to vote on the Boon once it's revealed. Note that you cannot vote on the Boon until you know what it is.

[Titus]

I have a lot of large theme scumgames that are much better than that Mini Theme! IIRC last summer like 6/8 of my large themes were scum!

And I would mention the other less common side of my meta here but I actually can't remember a recent completed large towngame on this account off the top of my head! :/ For the record, since I've already made it semi-public, I was FIN3 in Hilariously Unbalanced 2 though, so that kind of counts if you can get past the whole me-trying-to-pretend-I'm-me-but-not-me thing.!

It's really weird that you guys especially Tammy aren't just ignoring me as usual and focusing on people she knows well, but I guess I should like bask in the moment or something!? IDK!

And I almost forgot about the exclamation points this post so good thing I remembered before hitting submit!

This makes a lot of the end game of HU2 make more sense.

The exclamations are what I feel is awkward. It's harder to tell what you think is important.

Also moonlogic is generally considered a towntell of mine. Communists does not happen often. If I knew communists were a red herring, I would have won.

[Marquis]

A thing that worries me a little is just the vibe I get from both sides of the deas/marquis interactions. I know that marquis likes to townread the hell out of his teammates sometimes as scum.

Originally I was just going to ignore this but then I remembered you said something about scumreading me for ignoring you! :P

But then there isn't really much I can say about this other than it's pretty much right!? I do like townreading scumpartners sometimes because for some reason (or at least around the time I was suddenly rolling all scum) the site meta glorifies bussing so all you had to do was not bus and not bus hard to somehow win!

In this case I guess I can understand how it reads awkward!? I mean I really really do want to townread DV because he's ringing so many town bells; you could call it gut or something else similar that doesn't sound so unreliable, but then this kind of feels the same as how DV was like at the beginning of Quil's Smalltown game! It's like my hand one second just compulsively puts DV at the top of my town list but then the next second my memory tells it to swat it off down to the middle again! IDK really, it's hard to explain!

I'm also interested in who you got this from or if you noticed it myself! Because I don't really remember any scumgames of mine when I did this and you were there too!

[Titus]

Ok so I keep seeing Titus making posts like "sorry" and "derp Titus" and "this is another post that acknowledges I was wrong about something right after someone made a comment on it instead of 5-10 pages of long drawn out argument afterward" and while my last game with her she was scum and pushed moonlogic through while ignoring anything to the contrary, it's really jarring to see because of how much it clashes with her overall mafia personality or at least what I think it's like!

UT mentioned it earlier in this game, the whole "I have mafia ~figured out~" thing and it feels like it could be that Titus is trying to shy away from the blowback she's getting for that facet of her personality! I just can't figure out if it's town Titus reacting to a different environment/standard or trying to do better/be more appealing which kind of makes sense mirrorwise or scum trying to lessen the negative attention!

It's easier when I am objectively wrong or when people I know want me to get my town win are actively helping me be better at town. If I realize I am objectively wrong, I do say so.

[Marquis]

I have a lot of large theme scumgames that are much better than that Mini Theme! IIRC last summer like 6/8 of my large themes were scum! :P

And I would mention the other less common side of my meta here but I actually can't remember a recent completed large towngame on this account off the top of my head! :/ For the record, since I've already made it semi-public, I was FIN3 in Hilariously Unbalanced 2 though, so that kind of counts if you can get past the whole me-trying-to-pretend-I'm-me-but-not-me thing.!

It's really weird that you guys especially Tammy aren't just ignoring me as usual and focusing on people she knows well, but I guess I should like bask in the moment or something!? IDK!

And I almost forgot about the exclamation points this post so good thing I remembered before hitting submit!

This makes a lot of the end game of HU2 make more sense.

The exclamations are what I feel is awkward. It's harder to tell what you think is important.

Also moonlogic is generally considered a towntell of mine. Communists does not happen often. If I knew communists were a red herring, I would have won. :(

I still don't understand if you actually believed there were communists or not! I think I read you saying you did which is believable but then it's just as believable that you didn't believe it and just lied to save face about losing because you're Titus and this feeling that I'm still trying to read your genuineness there even after the game is done is probably a good indication of how horribly aggravating that was! (P.S. sorry mastin for the whole replace out then back in thing! I wasn't kidding when I said she kept making me want to throw my laptop against the wall!)

PEDIT Okay then! I don't completely believe you but then again I don't think I'll ever be dedicated enough to keep trying to get something I actually trust out of you instead of just ignoring you until it becomes unbearable again so we'll talk later! Maybe!

[Tammy]

"Anyway.

I'm not sure about Zar, but he seems more tentative than I recall him in our previous game.

Also, I've mostly seen Tammy get it right when she develops strong interaction-based reads on day 1.

Actually if you look at that game you'd see I'm not particularly big on day one in general.

Also, I don't know how much experience you have with Tammy overall, but I come from the same board that she started playing in, and the attitude she's giving me is the reason I actually stopped playing games that had her in them or that I could deduce she would be potentially involved in (by means of not co-modding, or the game being alted). If you need specifics into what I'm talking about, you can research really old games, like Seacore's Law and Order, which I ended up replacing out of here. There are two other games in the public Westeros board (85.5 and 86). 85.5 in particular is altless, so if that thread it's still up its not hard to follow through. When we have played together though, Tammy hasn't really been able to read me correctly. So she resorting to use Empire as proxy to try to get a read on me seems something she would do.

I have other things I want to respond to in regards to you and the things you've posted, but this feels like a huge discredit. Your entire first paragraph is criticizing my attitude and using as examples games that are over three years old as proof of my bad attitude, so I can't possibly have a point. I haven't been completely horrible at reading you, but yes, I did read you wrong in the recent unbalanced game. You haven't been particularly decent at reading me, and there was enough crap thrown at each other in those games years ago and were in large part due to the fact that I fooled you in the first game we played together and the paranoia you demonstrated after seemed completely out of the ordinary.

If I'm resorting to using Empire as a proxy to get a read on your slot, that should be a pretty big indicator for one thing. And yes, I am trying to gauge you through your team. Empire has been looking forward to team mafia; I think if you were town, there would be an indication of his excitement to get this game solved and I'm not seeing that.

Why would I need to make up stuff?

(Empire thinks reading your angry posts is funny).

This is likewise a discredit. I ask you if you are talking to your teammates, and this is your response? Your reference to my "angry" posts, which looking back I don't think are angry at all. Forceful, yes, angry no. I was trying to get at why Shadoweh was simultaneously calling me scummy and wanting to avoid me and comparing me to fantasy camp but not really. Getting a read on people I know best, am closest to, is pretty much my M.O., so the insult makes no sense, especially considering empire is supposedly town reading shadoweh.

You say that my attitude is why you stopped playing with me, and you know that's fine, we did have problems in the past but we've played games over the past couple of years and yeah we've argued or got paranoid of each other but as far as I remember it hasn't been out of control, nor was I in this game last night. Unless you just take issue with me suspecting you.

But you pull up my attitude, and if playing with me was so against what you'd want to do in life, then I'm not sure why you chose this game when it should have been a given that this is the game I'd be playing in. And if you really did think oh wouldn't want to deal with Tammy's attitude, then I really really have a hard time understanding why you'd insult me knowing that it would get under my skin and I wouldn't take too kindly to it.

But it does make sense from you as scum. As everyone, including Empire, knows that if you frustrate me and get me mad then I'll make an emotional push that some people will think won't make sense and I'll be discredited. (Considering that half of your entire team employed that method on marketplace while scum and it was quite effective, it makes perfect sense that this would be a repeat here.)

Also, there's something really big missing there. If Empire was really scum reading me, then that "anger" would be me faking anger or me being angry at being caught. The anger wouldn't be funny then; it would be alignment indicative and should have been used as a means of pushing me, but it wasn't. It wasn't put to any use or game relevance whatsoever; it was a throwaway line designed to make me upset. That's not town.

Also squared it was used in response to me questioning whether or not you guys were actually having discussions about the game, and then you deflected even further by wanting an answer for my casual claiming but without actually asking me what you wanted to know as if I'd ignored a question directed at me.

And even if you guys have realized herpaderp that was a silly question, I'd like very much for you to explain you guys' though process on asking me that.

Because you said:

My team's opinion on you is all jumbled, which is why I asked you Mina's question when you asked about our discussions (being fair, Mina suspected it because of fferry's flipped PM.

which doesn't make a whole lot of sense for two reasons:

1) This is my second post of the game:

But we also need to know signs to use our roles, right?

Which should indicate I was thinking about the mechanics insofar as they pertained to roles, which would indicate I had access to something even if you forgot that everyone did. And considering the amount of confusion I displayed over everything this game, the fact that there was one thing I didn't should be an indication it's something I was thinking about.

2) I don't understand why it would be suspicion in the context of ffery's role pm. ffery was essentially a vanilla townie, and it had been addressed already in this game by Titus that most of us had access to at least two abilities. The abilities she mentioned are the exact two abilities mentioned in ffery's role pm, so I'm not sure what ffery's role pm had anything to do with me mentioning my role.

I'd also like to know why me even mentioning having a role would be cause for concern.

Another thing I'd like to know in the midst of you explaining why your team had a "scum" read on me, you didn't indicate the very one thing you should have if you were scum reading me.

If I were scum, then I was faking not knowing that alcuin and the z guy were actual roles in the game. Me not understanding the mechanics is null; the premise remains the same, I'd still be confused and need to see how things work in motion. But, if scum I'd definitely know how the nightkills worked and I'd definitely know those two role pms weren't samples but were roles in the game. Therefore, a good portion of day one would be me being a big faking faker, but none of your reasons for me scum is anything about me doing that. So either your team believed I didn't know, which would make me town, or I'm faking, which would make me scum. But none of you said anything about that, and instead asked me really lame stuff like why did I mention my role, and why didn't I comment on espy maybe using a token to get scum.

As far as things in this game go, those two things seem really irrelevant to my alignment. I mean if my anger was funny, why was it funny being directed at someone your slot is town reading? Wouldn't that hinder a town win? Don't you guys want a town win? Like the motivation makes no sense to me at all.

And, tbh, I mean I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect me to relay Empire's (or Mina's and Regfan's) thoughts 100% perfectly when I don't have the entire context of their thought processes, so all you get is the partial message from what I understand they're saying. It basically puts me in a delivery boy spot (as it shifts me into having to question them) and doesn't let me focus into trying to gather myself to get into the game and organize my townreads, which I believe it's the thing I'm better at in day one.

This would hold a shitton more weight if you hadn't played team mafia in the last go around and wouldn't already have an expectation that this is exactly how things would go. And I'm pretty sure people's problem with you is not that you can't convey mina or empire's thought process 100% perfectly but that what you have literally makes no sense from a town perspective. Empire hasn't been following games recently so why in the great green hell is he giving meta reads that are at least a year old. And why would you get after me for using meta on him that's old when he's using that very same meta for someone else?

I do agree with ffery that regfan's read could be that wrong and come from town, but it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I literally said twice the first day of the game that I wasn't doing much in the way of reads because I had my dissertation due. Not only that but it was a Sunday. I rarely play mafia on Sundays and half your team knows I've been working on getting my dissertation defended, so even if Regfan was like "she said she's not scum hunting but she's not scum hunting because she's scum" I don't understand why the part of your team that knows I've got something going on wouldn't point out the relevant details. So I can see him being concerned, but going eh okay I'll wait to see what she does on the day she said she'd start doing stuff.

But most importantly, I can't understand why if your team is scum reading me, they didn't actually do anything or question me about anything.

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Um, actually we decided to use all of our tokens on Empire and Regfan... I'm kinda surprised you wouldn't expect that from our team, it seems like something you would know?

because Empire and Regfan prefer being town over anything, whereas if you look-up my remakrs to Regfan from last team Mafia in the Scummies post-game, you'd notice I mentioned I wouldn't go after a scumslot?

Anyway, I don't think this line of conversation is going to take us anywhere.

I've been thinking about this and it bugs me too. If you guys were actually really concerned that espy used tokens to get his mustache-twirling scum role, why not start a wagon on him to gain reactions? Instead you make a pseudo-vote on me and then get after me because I didn't comment on whether or not I think he did use tokens. And then you get offended and claiming I'm smearing you when I say I could see you taking a token. Why do you think it's okay to start a conversation about someone else who likes scum taking tokens and then get offended that someone else said you might take a token for scum? But furthermore, why not start a wagon on Espy to garner reactions there? Why be concerned about my reaction or non reaction? And considering I'm far more interested in other people's reactions and am perfectly capable to reacting to stuff I think I should, thinking I'm scum for it makes no sense.

I don't get this tone. I don't get why you would assume that I would know Empire and Regfan hogged the tokens to try to get town. I know you prefer scum as much as they prefer town, so why is it unreasonable for me to suspect you would take a token to get scum, when your team suspected someone else used tokens to get scum.

Also, why are you appealing to something you said at last team mafia's game and why would you expect that I would know that? This kinda feels like caught for the wrong reasons when you could just as easily tell me what you guys did with your tokens.

[Titus]

@Tammy, Now I know why you can never read me. Indirect assaults are MUCH better for scum. Subtly dropping emotion is bad or other associations make it much easier to believe something untrue. So he gets other people to defend Zar based on the subconscious hearing of bad emotional play while he can be bussing Zar fir cred.

It's a bit of a stretch in this instance but it's pretty much the only way I see Bulba scum atm.

The whole repitition makes it seem true is why I aggressively defend townreads. I want to say my townreads are town so people see they are town.

Pedit: Epic Wall arrived.

[T S O]

Marquis, please.

PEdit: Whoah shit.

[Titus]

@Marquis, Generally people do not trust me after I kick ass as scum, even if I don't win. I also like people checking my thoughts and throwing a smidge of dirt on me so I don't become too obvtown.

I also did believe communists were present. :'( I don't save face post game.

I kinda knew you both had to be vigs that game. An SK shoots the cop sooner.

[Tammy]

@Tammy, Now I know why you can never read me. Indirect assaults are MUCH better for scum. Subtly dropping emotion is bad or other associations make it much easier to believe something untrue. So he gets other people to defend Zar based on the subconscious hearing of bad emotional play while he can be bussing Zar fir cred.

It's a bit of a stretch in this instance but it's pretty much the only way I see Bulba scum atm.

If it's a bit of a stretch then why are you saying it has to exist. Bulbazack could be scum; not entirely sure what I think about his alignment right now, but I don't feel like he's discrediting me. I might get emotional but considering I also have the capability of being quite logical, it doesn't seem like it would work.

I don't think I've been THAT horrible at reading you. I also keep a lot of my actual thoughts and reads to myself so.

[Tammy]

But that reminds me Bulba - Are you not paranoid of me at all?

[Titus]

I don't see Bulba as scum outside of that theory.

Also, no one's assured conftown but I like you, FFery likes you, my team likes you, hell everyone I am townreading likes you and there's nothing you have done to make me suspicios, so no, not really too paranoid. I will be checking your logic as we progress though and if I am wrong, I will see it or my team will.

[fferyllt]

hey ffery, it shouldn't really bother you that you don't have a strong read on me early-game. I don't think you usually do.

There have been a couple games where I did. I remember townreading you pretty early in red wine and eventually getting so sick of the mutual tunneling you and katsuki were doing that I was willing to lynch you both.

In the Fire Emblem game I also townread you on day 1 for an interaction between you and beastcharizard, I think.

Anyway. You are able to town it up. I'm just a lot more cautious since the alliteration mini.

[Tammy]

I have a lot of large theme scumgames that are much better than that Mini Theme! IIRC last summer like 6/8 of my large themes were scum!

And I would mention the other less common side of my meta here but I actually can't remember a recent completed large towngame on this account off the top of my head! :/ For the record, since I've already made it semi-public, I was FIN3 in Hilariously Unbalanced 2 though, so that kind of counts if you can get past the whole me-trying-to-pretend-I'm-me-but-not-me thing.!

It's really weird that you guys especially Tammy aren't just ignoring me as usual and focusing on people she knows well, but I guess I should like bask in the moment or something!? IDK!

And I almost forgot about the exclamation points this post so good thing I remembered before hitting submit!

Yeah, I realized were FIN3 earlier.

Pretty sure you played FakeGod's Winter's Night game on this account and that one was a couple months ago!

I don't remember ignoring you, but if it makes you feel better the request for reads on you from people who know you came from Oversoul!

Is your team really not discussing anything?

[Tammy]

While I'm relaying opinions from the Black Goo, CES argues that we should use the Bane on a player who is hard to read (vezok is his example). This is because it's harder to judge scumminess on Day 1 before we see how any flips go and it would allow us to use investigative abilities on them - meanwhile, if scum kill them, we don't lose somebody we were quickly townreading. By avoiding a Bane on the No.1 scummiest player, too, we avoid complicating their potential lynch on Major Day 1. Again, I'm pretty much sold on his argument, especially the last part - I think Baning people who we intend to lynch immediately is a waste, though acknowledging that that could change later depending on what future Banes involve.

UnBane: Titus
Bane: vezok

I might pick somebody else later but I'm pretty sure that I don't want to Bane Titus, whom I'm reading as town.

Also reading Tammy as probably town but I don't know the dynamics between her, Zar, Empire etc. well enough to say that I scumread Zar as an extension of townreading Tammy.

Why is vezok hard to read?

Empire and I hydra as Cerulean. Mina and I hydra as Sir Waffles Wafflington. Zar, Regfan, Mina and I have played together here and at Westeros for the past 3 or so years.

The weird one is Empire though. He wouldn't care about this game as scum and therefore would give bs reads and not really be involved. As town, he'd be engaged and wanting to solve the game. I don't see any indication of that.

[Tammy]

You think Zar/Tammy is possible scum on scum? :V

Tammy

should

be the first person to tell you I'd be a fool

not

to consider it.

I do love some scum theater on occasion!

Last night while furiously trying to import images to submit my dissertation to my committee, not so much.

Man I don't think I've had fully satisfying scum theater since Espy and me in Red Wine though. :/

It's sad ffery/nacho will not be around past this day to give a fuller read on you as the game goes on.