Mini 442 - Beast Wars Mafia Game Over

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sweenytodd: I like his post 624 a lot, and currently I think he is strongly pro-town. I don't see him getting lynched anytime soon.

Aimee: Been looking much worse, and she is my top suspect.

Lowell: Lowell was actually very early on the FG wagon, so he isn't a priority right now.

TG: Likewise.

STD: Upon looking at him through Sweenytodd's posting, he does seem scummy. His mega-postings did give me a bad vibe, and being last on the FG bandwagon didn't help his case.

I have a neutral stance towards Confused, and Dusk I have a little bit worse feeling about.

I feel like Dusk, Confused and STD won't be good informational lynches for today because they have acted pretty independently thus far. Lowell, and more particularly Aimee, but even TG are better kills.

[Albert B. Rampage]

My list goes:

Aimee
STD
Lowell
TG
Jordan
Confused
Sweeny

I don't have a very informed opinion of Dusk yet.

[JordanA24]

My top suspects are TG & StD. TG for fence sitting (until of course the votes starting piling up against me), overreacting to Teffc being replaced. This:

Your post 408 is actually somewhat good, but it doesn't really help that every single other of your posts reeks. Oh, and a little FYI, just because someone presented a very clear and damning case against you (STD) doesn't mean that your mockery of quotes and longwindedness is going to help you at this point. It also is very poor play to accuse the current stack of votes against you on STD's experience and not the fact that everything he said makes perfect sense. You should also, maybe, possibly try to defend your own posts at this point instead of continuing to displace upon Lowell. Oh wait! That's all you've really done the whole game!

I don't see why I can't protest against an experienced player strolling in and saying I'm certain scum, that player might be (and atm I feel is) scum. You even said that my post was good. I had tried defending myself as well.

Also, later on he posted this:

Friday: Early morning

1. Jordan, at L-1, claims "pro-town roleblocker" to little fanfare.
2. HH says that this is a convenient scum claim (it is) and then pulls a "too-townie" argument at me from nowhere. Then says I have been playing it safe (what?).
3. Aimee doesn't do much, like usual.
4. Ryan unvotes, stating his reason as avoiding a quick-lynch.
5. Lowell agrees with HH, then suggests a wagon of me (again, where is this coming from?)
6. Fraggle argues flavor, look he's actually initiating a line of reasoning by himself! *golfclapping*
7. Jordan talks about using Wikipedia to read up on the show. Admits that his role flavor smells. Interesting.
8. ryan does a little thing he picked up from SweenyTodd, asking questions of other people. Generally, this should really only be done when discussion slows a little and a boost and a refresh are in order, otherwise it's assumed that everyone still has the same opinions as they had on their most recent post. Ryan, it's still Friday.
9. STD disagrees with HH's suggestion of a no lynch, an opinion that I second. No lynches should only be used when mathematically sound (i.e. there are a small group of people in a non-LYLO situation when a following scum night kill would help narrow suspicions to catch the scum in the end) or when discussion has entirely petered out and there's just nothing to go on. Neither case is true at this moment. STD then says some more stuff and continues in is argument against Jordan.
10. Jordan responds, blah.
11. STD responds, blah.
12. Fraggle responds, super blah.
13. Ryan votes Jordan.
OBJECTION!
See item #4 please.
There is a clear contradiction in the evidence! Am I supposed to believe that only giving Jordan 10 hours to defend as being synonymous with a person who is opposed to a possible quicklynch? I understand that with your pace of posting, you obviously have nothing better to do than go on Mafiascum every few hours, but surely you understand that this behavior is very questionable?

Major FOS: ryan

We now know Ryan to be town, I'm thinking that he's trying to catch Ryan by turning a slightly scummy thing into a "major" issue.

StD, my gut still says he's scum, when he replaced in, he walked in and tried to direct the town onto a convenient target (and his analysis was odd). Plus his hammer of Fraggle still looks like bussing to me.

Also, Sweeny, I don't see why Aimee not voting for 10 pages puts her at the top of your scumlist above, in my opinion, far more worthy candidates.

[Aimee]

Could Albert, Sweeny and Lowell please explain why I am their top suspect? Of course, I'm pretty sure Sweeny will say it is because of the fact I didn't vote for ten pages. Personally, I don't see that as a major scum tell.

Sweeny, if you look at any of my games, you will see that I am cautious with my votes. I don't see that as a scum-tell at all. And as far as I can see, Albert and Lowell have given absolutely no reason for their suspicion against me.

I find Albert's u-turn on me particularly suspicious at this point.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I was also pretty much against the Jordan bandwagon. There is no proof that Jordan is town, however. That is the reason I particularly dislike this post:

I also dislike his second post because it says he thought Jordan, HH and ryan were pro-town.

This is pretty obvious

- HH and ryan were dead and confirmed, and

Jordan has claimed

!

Jordan's alignment is absolutely ambiguous, just like my own and everybody elses. The only players who know who is mafia is the scum.

FoS Aimee

[Aimee]

Well, that's stupid. What I meant was that Jordan has claimed, and there is absolutely no reason at this point to doubt his claim. You are clearly focusing far too heavily on the semantics of the situation, and not understand my intent, which is far more important.

If this is why I am the most scummy in your eyes, it is very weak.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Well, that's stupid. What I meant was that Jordan has claimed, and there is absolutely no reason at this point to doubt his claim. You are clearly focusing far too heavily on the semantics of the situation, and not understand my intent, which is far more important.

If this is why I am the most scummy in your eyes, it is very weak.

Maybe your right. But I find it strange that the 3 first players you make your analysis on(which are awesome btw) you have all found to not be good lynch candidates. Normally, one would start with analyzing the most suspicious; for you that would be TG.

So who is the most suspicious person in your mind ?

I'm going to do that for every player over the next several days. Hope to have a definite answer by then.

I know this is a non-answer, really. I need to re-read before deciding anything majorly. Although tentively I would put Dusk and TrustGossip as my top two.

You have been very careful not to step on any toes, not to anger anyone, shown as in here:

Dusk, I would advice you to read some games Lowell has completed recently. Trust me, he plays like this. What he has done is definitely play-style related.

Overall, not much to go on. I find it quite suspicious he doesn't give explanations about Primoris or Fraggle (I would like to see them), and he seems to lurk quite a lot. More analysis is definitely appreciated. Despite this,

I wouldn't put him as a major candidate to be scum

at the moment, although it may become a possibility nearer the endgame.

It would be very illogical as scum for Albert to go quite so hard against Fraggle.

This makes me think he is pro-town, even though his actions are somewhat dubious in places.

So yes, that's basically all we have so far on Confused.

Primoris was in my eyes pro-town, and Confused has done nothing to change my opinion

, and has, if anything, strengthened that. Although he has some things I find bizarre (Lowell at the top of his townie list being the main one), I see him as most definitely pro-town at this point.[/url]

In conclusion, you don't focus on attacking the players you find most suspicious, instead you seem to want to boost your reputation and re-assuring players that you're not after them. Usually you are more aggressive torwards your suspects, and this makes me think that your mafia trying to build up credibility with the town.

[Aimee]

I can see your point. i would like to remind you that I will be posting a similar analysis on every player.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I am most eager to hear your analysis about Sweeny and TG. Did we ask for a prod on TG yet ?

[Dusk]

These are some of my suspcions on Aimee.
o Some of her early doubter speak their suspicions because she doesn't post enough, but she's been picking up the slack recently. I never thought her lack of posting was suspicious because normally when people try to stay under the radar they don't make lengthy posts when they surface, just comment in depth enough on the current one or two issue or post frequently but briefly. Aimee, however, often has her own opinions and posts long summaries. Also in her favor, she was an early voter on teffc who was replaced by Fraggle (115), and points her suspicions consitently at the player. She varies her targets, but how cetain has she been about players?
o All that said, I only agree with about half of her points most of the time; For instance, in post 168 she criticizes ryan's arguments as week when I saw him as one of the few being agressive and thorough. She also felt his tactic of pushing non-voters was unecessary without a deadline, but I disagree. If you've exhausted the same opinions it's important to question if some players are sitting on information or lurking so that they contribute something new to the conversation.
o One option I was exploring is that

Aimee

was lurking and realized she was more suspcious this way, but her explainations on the matter are often that she's busy or that she was gone on holiday. That is one of several things for which I can give her the benefit of the doubt. Now however, I'm tired of long summaries from her sparatically and want to here an actual debate.
o Things that make me suspicious of her is that she was a huge advocate for suspicion against ryan (who turned out to be pro-town) and calls a lot of his argument's weak when I saw it as exactly the opposite. Also, In post 396 she reconsiders her suspicons on ryan thinking maybe "Jordan is trying to link to Ryan so that if Ryan gets lynched, he looks more like a townie. I think their whole defense is totally bizarre, as is the case against Lowell. However, I see Jordan as scummier than Ryan at the moment.” This starts the first bandwagon on Jordan and then he is forced to claim RB Skorponok. Then, in her favor, she is careful not to add her vote on him for a -1 (405), but against her I think she would have done better to be an early voter for him after she saw her FoS take off a little because she hasn't taken sides for man save teffc/ Fraggle.
o There are things against her. At one point she started posting a lot of questions to several players, but not posting what she makes of their answers. This could be a method of diverting attention from herself and appearing thoughtful, as opposed to actually searching out Scum.
o She shrank away rather quickly when I called her on the possible Scum tactic of hounding me on the business of voting Fraggle. I thought that was strang and anxious.

[Aimee]

oSome of her early doubter speak their suspicions because she doesn't post enough, but she's been picking up the slack recently. I never thought her lack of posting was suspicious because normally when people try to stay under the radar they don't make lengthy posts when they surface, just comment in depth enough on the current one or two issue or post frequently but briefly. Aimee, however, often has her own opinions and posts long summaries. Also in her favor, she was an early voter on teffc who was replaced by Fraggle (115), and points her suspicions consitently at the player. She varies her targets, but how cetain has she been about players?

This is a good observation. Would you say, however, that this made me scummy?

oAll that said, I only agree with about half of her points most of the time; For instance, in post 168 she criticizes ryan's arguments as week when I saw him as one of the few being agressive and thorough. She also felt his tactic of pushing non-voters was unecessary without a deadline, but I disagree. If you've exhausted the same opinions it's important to question if some players are sitting on information or lurking so that they contribute something new to the conversation.

I unequivocally disagree with this.

oOne option I was exploring is that

Aimee

was lurking and realized she was more suspcious this way, but her explainations on the matter are often that she's busy or that she was gone on holiday. That is one of several things for which I can give her the benefit of the doubt. Now however, I'm tired of long summaries from her sparatically and want to here an actual debate.

This is definitely a point I can accept 100%. The reason I am doing long summaries right now is because I missed time, and I think this game is slowing down slightly. I want everyone to be 100% sure of my stance on every player.

oThings that make me suspicious of her is that she was a huge advocate for suspicion against ryan (who turned out to be pro-town) and calls a lot of his argument's weak when I saw it as exactly the opposite. Also, In post 396 she reconsiders her suspicons on ryan thinking maybe "Jordan is trying to link to Ryan so that if Ryan gets lynched, he looks more like a townie. I think their whole defense is totally bizarre, as is the case against Lowell. However, I see Jordan as scummier than Ryan at the moment.” This starts the first bandwagon on Jordan and then he is forced to claim RB Skorponok. Then, in her favor, she is careful not to add her vote on him for a -1 (405), but against her I think she would have done better to be an early voter for him after she saw her FoS take off a little because she hasn't taken sides for man save teffc/ Fraggle.

I don't really know what you want me to say here. I made my reasons for voting Fraggle and being suspicious of Jordan perfectly clear.

oThere are things against her. At one point she started posting a lot of questions to several players, but not posting what she makes of their answers. This could be a method of diverting attention from herself and appearing thoughtful, as opposed to actually searching out Scum.

I can't actually find when I did this. Could you please point me to where this happened? (Yes, I know I am dumb.)

oShe shrank away rather quickly when I called her on the possible Scum tactic of hounding me on the business of voting Fraggle. I thought that was strang and anxious.

This is mainly because I don't know how to reply to this without it becoming a Battle of WIFOM ("If I was scum, I would have killed/not killed so-and-so...")

[Aimee]

Mod: Can we get prods on =Confused=, Lowell, Save The Dragons and TrustGossip?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I unequivocally disagree with this.

How so ?

[Aimee]

I don't see how saying it is scummy to pressure people into voting (disagreeing with pressuring people to vote) is at all suspicious.

[Lowell]

Do I need a prod? I'm here.

[Aimee]

4. Dusk

Replaced the non-existant deezr at page 19. She comes in, and posts about Jordan's claim, saying she thinks it is genuine, and points to evidence from the show to support this. I think that definitely sums up Dusk's role in the game so far - the professor. She is definitely the person so far who knows most about the theme.

Her third post finally comes in with some analysis, focusing almost entirely on Fragglescum, our now confirmed Mafia Godfather.

Fraggle, from what I read of his posts, doesn't strike me as Scum. He's just not a smart player. The first thing he alludes to is the interesing lyrics Albert posts, "If it is a certain restriction he has...then he probably has some sort of special role. I went back and read his posts/poems and they really hint at a possible vigilante or serial killer role. A lot of them are 'I'm all alone against the system' kind of writings....just a thought."
Then Sweeny rightly points out that no one would breadcrumb special roles especially if they're a SK. Opinions like these simply are far-fetched and don't help the Town, but I'm always more interested with finding Mafia than Lynching someone (forgive me) stupid.

Trust Gossip later mentions that Fraggle hasn't defended himself, establised "town-ness" despite early bandwagons. "I don't think having an urge to establish town-ness will help my image much in the long run anyway" is Fraggles answer. I find this ridiculous since this is a game where you are constantly matching wits and defending yourself, but does this say Scum? It sounds like bad stretegizing to me. But Scum esp. are working overtime to blend in, therefore they wouldn't say that. Then in the same post (post 227) Fraggle mentions that Primoris has been oddly quiet but negates himself by saying this isn't necessarily Scum tactic. Whether you're town or scum you should be arguing for hardcore evidence you believe is tell-tell. You can't hope to win this game by waiting for others to make something of random quotes from other poster.

Is everyone is just trying to get rid of Fraggle because these kind of moves won't help us out in the long run? I also realize he replaced a player that did much of the same kind of posting.

I actually agree that Fragglescum was playing quite stupidly in the game, as Teffc did similarly.

However, I would say it was possible (and now confirmed) that Fraggle could be playing dumb and be scum. She says "scum especially are working overtime to blend in," yet I don't really agree with this. There are more than one scum strategy - otherwise everyone would try to be loud and seek those trying to blend in, and the scum would be outed. So, in short there is more than one scum strategy, which doesn't seem to be grasped here.

Furthermore, she seemingly assumes it is his stupidity that was causing him to get votes, when I would say it was his scumminess that caused it. So, she seems to misinterpret a few things in this post. That said, I don't think this makes Dusk scum.

When I first started reviewing this game, Lowell seemed most like a Scum to me. He's not totally in the clear, but I would need more time to go in depth with him. I saw the wagon. Then I saw where the votes started coming off him and I think it's just that he questioned the validity of the bandwagon, to do it given it was Jordan and Ryan who started it. If we already went there I don't think we have time to hope for an extention or start from square one with him. I don't have something everyone else already didn't mention right now.

So,

Vote: FraggleScum

I would of course unvote if he gave us some proof that we're dealing with a Townie of course. A RC or CC is the way to do this, but that may not be the only way. The lyrics must stop though. He and Mr. Rampage are making me uneasy.

Re-reading this makes me think it is less scummy than before, just because I think she was already unsure of whether Fraggle was dumb or scum, and the deadline pushed her to vote. Dusk, could you confirm whether this was the case or not? I am assuming it was.

I dont particularly hold any issue with her saying she thought Lowell was scum (and then more town), but I would expect her to say something about this on day 2. Which she does do. No problems here.

I asked her to justify why she changed her stance, and she comes back with this reply:

Fraggle for the most part does simply seem like he's just not good at the game, but I can see everyone else's suspicions, too.

As I said before,

1) We don't have time to start from scratch.

2) I can't bring up anything that hasn't already been mentioned in the hunt for other scum yet

3) I can unvote if Fraggle says something that assuages suspicions.

To be more consistent and firm, Fraggle did say something that strikes me as desperate to shift attention from oneself. He mentions that Jordan claimed a villian for RB, but if Fraggle had read the opening post by the mod or really paid attention to Wikipedia, he'd understand the Maximals and Predacons are in a truce. He could have a Maximal Character, but he could also be an Alien Mafia member. Either way he has forgotten this detail.

She seems to now think he is suspicious. Seeing as I could see some indecisiveness with her first post, I now buy her explanations.

One thing I am not particularly happy about is this:

Furthermore, call me callous, but if Fraggle is Townie I don't think he's a Role or a player we'll miss. What Doc, Cop, or RB says such things anyway?

This is just pure speculation. She makes it out like power-roles play perfectly and do not make any mistakes, when that simply isn't the case. To rule Fraggle out of being a power role just because he wasn't playing particularly well seems rather odd, to say the least.

Her only other post on day 1 of any use is to slam Fraggle's claim. She definitely knows the theme very well, which could be very advantageous.

She comes back with her first content related post (although previously having a few about game theory), about Lowell on Day 2.

These were copied and pasted from my notes. I'm so lazy. I'm sorry it took me so long... anyway as I've been saying Lowell is terribly suspicous to me

•Lowell retaliates with a vote for ryan who didn’t like the bandwagon on the newbie potential Townie
•Says screw this and votes someone who randomly voted him a while back
•Calls ryan’s strategy to Lynch quiet people “a dumb point,” “opportunism” Maybe a quiet person is in on it with him because lurkers can be detrimental, thus Ryan's strategy is not unfounded.
•Good Recap by Sweeny on 175, better one on 230 by Jordan
•Jordan Sweeny, and Ryan agree Lowell is scum. Over the Under, Ryan, JordanA24 all vote
•Got rid of bandwagon by questioning the validity of the bandwagon and not defending his scummy posts
o1) "I wanted to get OTU's attention with that vote. Really, this bandwagon is so stupid it makes me crazy. One RANDOM vote (his only post so far this game), followed by ryan and jordan scumteam teaming up to get me to 3 votes. Ridiculous. I want OTU to OWN his vote on me or get lost. People won't realize just how scummy this bandwagon is until the random votes leave."
o2) "I do find it strange that ryan and jordan would buddy up together so much if they were scum. But really, that's the ultimate in WIFOM (ooh, scum would NEVER be so obvious, so we're not scum). More importantly, I really think they thought I would be a quick, easy lynch and that everyone would rally around killing me, thus making their like-mindedness not so obvious in the midst of a mob. As it is, they can't get people to vote for me and they're becoming increasinly exposed." It's not terribly strange now that Ryan is a dead townie.

Her reasons for finding Lowell suspicious are, to me, not strong. Dusk, I would advice you read games that Lowell has completed. This is his playstyle, and I think that attacking people over playstyle is suspicious (although I am pretty sure you don't/didn't know Lowell's playstyle, so it was a newbie error).

In addition, I think it's WIFOM to say Lowell killed ryan. How do you know whoever killed him was thinking "killing ryan is going to cause suspicion to fly towards Lowell"? In short, how do you know Lowell isn't being framed? That is why I dislike speculation over nightkills that reflects blame onto living ones.

The second part of this post:

Now...

Other Thoughts:
I am not going to defend my vote for Fraggle further after this. I'm a little irritated that my catch on him is what got a couple of people to move off the fense. It turned out to be a good move for the Town and I look like Mafia for it. Okhams (sp?) Razor says the simplest explaination is normally the correct one. Can't it just be that I said what I meant and with my knowledge of the theme we got the Godfather Lynched on the first Day? It wasn't really a 180. I knew something was amiss with his posts. I thought it was just really bad playing. It turned out to be very bad Mafia slip-ups. I did realize a bit of desperation in Fraggles posts afterwards that I felt strongly enough about to leave my vote on. When Fraggle said he was Terrorsaur it was official. (I couldn't understand why he didnt just choose a Maximal. Too safe?)

Anyway, I think we could find more evidence on whom to Lynch next by looking to see if ryan and HackerHack were onto anyone. Maybe the Mafia felt most threatened by them. There's another point against Lowell.

Confused, thank you for that in depth analysis! I think Trust Gossip is looking incredibly suspicious, now. His/her posts were inconsistent in regards to teffc wh was replaced by Fraggle. Your thinking seems to be along the lines of mine in that looking at players in retrospect will give us new evidence with which to Lynch Scum. Still, I've been meaning to do this for a while--

VOTE: Lowell

I can understand how it was frustrating to defend yourself against your early switch - it must have been frustrating (since, in my eyes, you didn't really switch), and because I was probably the leader of this suspicion, I want to apologise.

That said, I don't like the paragraph I bolded. It's more WIFOM. How do you know that the Mafia merely wanted us to think that? How do we even know the Mafia killed them (since their real target could have been protected, or Jordan/other could have role-blocked them)? That said, I'm pretty sure this is a newbie tell, since Dusk laster asked what WIFOM was, implying she genuinely didn't know about it. I am willing to give the benefit of doubt for the moment.

She then gives a recap of Sweeny. I don't actually like recaps that are devoid of analysis, but Dusk's contains analysis, so I'm happy enough, and a conclusion (which is at the start). I think one thing she says is that "Sweeny seems incredibly pro-town". There are people like that (Patrick and Ripley for example), so when they are scum, they can be incredibly difficult to catch. Dusk seems to realise this, because she says he cannot be completely trusted.

I like the way she unvotes Lowell (giving reasons), and the way she votes for TrustGossip. She definitely had reasoning. She has recently got behind the suspicions against me, giving reasoning (which I don't 100% agree with), and saying she could get behind an Aimee wagon. I'm not particularly happy about this, since her case seems to mainly revolve around lurking, but some of her reasoning has been not too bad.

So overall, I'm taking a bit of a 180 on Dusk - I think for the moment she is pro-town, although newbish. I like her theme knowledge, and I think that out of everyone she would be the most useful for assessing roleclaims. Is that reason for keeping her around? No, but seeing as she isn't setting off any alarm bells at the moment, I think she's fine.

One thing that is worrying me slightly is the way she hasn't given a list of her suspicions like others have, and her non-committal nature to some players is rather alarming. Whilst I definitely agree she has made her opinions on TrustGossip, Lowell, Sweeny and myself clear, I am a bit worried about the way she has said literally nothing on some players, like =Confused=, Save TheDragons etc. This is definitely something I would like to see her do in the near future.

[=Confused=]

I'm also here.

I'm interested to see just who Aimee does find scummy. Like Albert mentioned she has yet to really pick anyone out, so that is a strike against her. That said, reading her comments on Dusk has made me rethink my position a little. I would have to do a re-read for myself, but it seemed to be quite insightful. So for now I'm willing to at least cut Aimee some slack to get though all of the players in the game before I really make up my mind on her.

I would like to know why Lowell finds her scummy enough for a vote though. I don't think he ever said why.

[Lowell]

Just a gut, really.

There are five candidates. Two of them must be scum. A few (I dont' remember who) were eager to lynch fraggle, so that's a point for them.

More or less process of elimination.

[Dusk]

Post 261 you ask ryan Why he would shift his attention to Primoris and Hackerhuck.

Post 301 You ask Fraggle why Jordan can't finger ryan
Also, Jordan Are you Rosso Carne in disguise (lol)

Then you went on holiday.

So okay maybe not a lot of questions, but the duration of time was fairly long. It's mainly what we've been talking about, particularly what Albert mentioned-- "In conclusion, you don't focus on attacking the players you find most suspicious, instead you seem to want to boost your reputation and re-assuring players that you're not after them. Usually you are more aggressive torwards your suspects, and this makes me think that your mafia trying to build up credibility with the town." You just post long summaries and point out behavior and seem a little less firm of late in your decisions on people. I'm seeing this as you trying to look helpful when in fact you haven't been someone to count on.

To answer your question, I really haven't made up my mind about you. I want to says whether I think you're scum or town one way or the other, but I'm simply not sure with you, yet. I also wanted to chime in my two cents on the matter, because I've basically been spectating.

I'm trying to review everyone else's opinion of you, Aimee, and see how it coincides with my current view, and my notes of you.

[Dusk]

Yes, your analysis of my vote on Fraggle is exactly what happened.

And you, Aimee, are not the only one who has said Lowell has a style. So I'm willing to buy it. As you can see my suspcions and my vote is now on TG. From the previous day I wasn't impressed with Lowell's early behavior. I'm still not, but he has made more redeeming moves since, And I'm willing to lay off. So, I have.

On the Ryan turning up dead part and Lowell being connected, what comes out in the night is all the new evidence we have at first, wouldn't you agree? When we start having these little chats the way people answer questions is also new evidence, but I think I will continue such speculation. So long as we come up with more thhan one scenario and don't deem deaths as the only means of evidence, it should be fine to draw connections. I am a newbie, but in the three other Mafia games I've played with newbie the deaths are normally the Town's best assests. I wouldn't say that it's hard core proof of anything because Mafia can WIFOM in order to throw the town off (See I'm

learn-ding

.)

Apology accepted, luv, but your questioning my "turn" is fine. This is the nature of the game, right?

[Save The Dragons]

Going by Albert's post history, he hasn't been posting in such a style in other games. How could it be related to his role?

A little nudge in Albert's direction.

I wonder though, why do you really unvote Jordan? What's the risk of keeping the vote? You're almost playing too safe.

[quote="Primoris"I again would like to say that indeed playing too safe is not in the benefit of the town at this point, however, I cannot agree with the people that're saying ryan is playing too safe. No vote at this point.[/quote]

There seems to be some sort of pattern with ryan and Jordan playing a very non-aggressive game whereas Lowell and HackerHuck seem much more inclined to lynch someone, which is a good sign.

Someone can't keep thier facts straight.

Jordan, are you really just waiting for concrete evidence or rather just waiting for a good moment to vote for an innocent player without it looking suspicious?

A little nudge in Jordan's direction.

After getting some votes on him, I haven't seen ryan do something the last few posts that makes me think he's town.

I'm not sure Lowell is town either, but as I said, ryan hasn't managed to convince me at all, about his alignment.

Primoris pretty much says that he's joining this bandwagon, deeming ryan's posts as insufficient for determining whether ryan is town. So basically he hops onto the bandwagon, not because of new evidence, but for the hell of it.

I'm not suggesting we should sacrifice you to gain information but I'm willing to put you in danger to get some.

As far as I am concerned, this is a bullshit arguement. This whole concept of "i'll put pressure on them" seems so fake. So you're voting them for a reason you could easily write off as conviceable pro-town. "I swear I'm not bandwagoning scum, it's a vote to gain information!"

I'm pretty sure that post was the reason I put Primoris on the list.

Vote: FraggleScum

I know I promised you a case, but just going off of what Dusk said looks a lot like double talk.

If it's any consellation, my case for you would have been primarily based on the way you starting subtling slinging suspicioun onto everyone, e.g.: "Against the system lyrics = vig or SK," and "If he's scum, being in a leadership position is bad."

Also, why don't you want to confirm Jordan's role? Call me a noob, but doesn't that benefit the town?

Because proving or not being able to prove that Jordan is a roleblocker (which I am more than happy to believe at the moment) is not worth alerting the scum and telling the town that I have a blockable/non-blockable role.

I am suspicious of his interaction with Fraggle

Yeah, there's not much I can do to respond to that.

[Lowell]

As I said before, I'm reasoning that myself, Jordan, STD, and albert are all innocent.

That leaves me Aimee, Dusk, confused, Sweeny, and TG.

Sweeny was the first one to vote Fraggle, more or less out of nowhere, yesterday. So I think he's unlikely to be scum.

Of the other four, I think Aimee and Fraggle's interaction is the strangest. Aimee jumped on the Fraggle wagon early, but hesitantly. sweeny voted, then I voted, then she... uh... FOSed with a threat to vote. As things got worse, then she voted, and Fraggle quickly voted her in return.

My take on fraggle was an inexperienced mafia player. A player who panicked (as we all saw) and more or less didn't see the attack on him coming. I think Aimee wanted to distance herself from him, and he didn't know what to do except vote her back in return. If he really just wanted to lash out at those attacking him (not sure why he would) I think he would have taken on sweeny, or, more likely, me. That he waits for the THIRD vote to OMGUS someone (for a weak reason) doensn't make sense to me.

So yeah, that's the case.

As well, I feel like the Dusk, Aimee, confused, TG foursome has our remaining scum. 2/4, presumably, are guilty.

[Aimee]

5. Sweenytodd

Sweeny is someone who has been, for many people, including myself, seen as highly pro-town. I know several players like this, and the way they act so pro-town ends up making them unreadable. So, I'm going to be delving a bit deeper into his posts to try and spot anything even remotely scummy.

First up is his opening analysis. As expected, it's pretty flawless - lots of good points. I agree with every single point he makes in this post, which definitely gives me confidence that we are on the same wavelength. Despite this, I don't exactly like his conclusion:

I am also suspicious of Teffc but I want to wait on a replacement... Most of Teffc's posts have made little sense to me so maybe another player will have a fresh perspective. I also would like to hear from Jordan about why he is so quick to defend Ryan and what the case is against Lowell, Your post #114 is pretty weak so if there is more of a case please point me to it.

People I feel neutral about are almost everybody... I can't read Albert well with his post restriction which frustrates me, I liked Aimee's summary but would like to see some follow up to it.

Person I feel to be town: Hackerhuck... throughout the game I have read his posts as very strongly town and looking for scum, he is the only one I have a strong feel about...

I get an odd feeling here - most players he basically feels are neutral, which is quite a non-committal stance. I'm going to give him plus points for his HackerHuck comment, and minus points for his "I feel neutral about... almost everybody," which has a level of non-committalness that makes me uneasy. I'm also slightly leary of the way he backed down from ryan's pressure concerning sweeny putting him at -2. However, my initial thoughts are that he is incredibly pro-town - I am really nitpicking here.

That said, he is very consistent, and is very helpful, asking good questions and following them up effectively. He makes a case against Teffc and Jordan, and defends Lowell from ryan and Jordan. I agree with all his posts. One thing that worries me is that he hasn't given his thoughts on every player coherently - there's been a lot about ryan, Lowell, Teffc, with less on some of the quieter players (including myself and TG), even though he tends to ask everyone questions. I'm not concerned he was on the Jordan wagon seeing as he justified his suspicions very clearly and concisely.

He was, as Lowell said an early voter of Fraggle, but even at the time I worried that he was sitting back after he voted, which was why I asked him how he felt about it. His response was good and I was reassured.

After being absent for what seems like genuine real-life reasons, he comes back and (finally) gives clear thoughts on each player. I generally agree with his analysis of every player (with the exception of my own and Dusk). I don't really see how not voting for 10 pages is a particularly bad scum-tell - I am genuinely cautious with my vote. I also do not see how Dusk is the most pro-town - even though I think she is pro-town, I would not call her the most pro-town.

So, overall, I find Sweeny to be very pro-town like I expected. Although I have a few minor issues (the way he labelled most players neutrally in his opening analysis, and a few issues with myself and Dusk in his most recent one), I don't really see this as an inherent scumtell.

However, I would not at all clear Sweeny - I've got my eye on him, because as I have said before, people who always appear pro-town like this can become dangerous later, especially if everyone begins to trust them too much. At the moment, I do have no real issues other than the above with Sweeny. I think he is pro-town.

[Save The Dragons]

Mod:

TG hasn't posted since the 2nd of July...maybe a prod is in order.

[Lowell]

I'm having a "scumday"? Uh, I'm almost scared to ask... what exactly is that?