Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Jack]

"
That Billytwilight can honestly think I'm scum at this point makes me question his judgment about everything else. "

All he said was he didn't like one of your posts.

I'm sure he'd mention his discomfort because of my overwhelming townie-ness.

false dichotomy...

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Kay. So...

We gonna wagon Glork? As previously mentioned, I will join this likely failure of a wagon.

unvote, vote: Glork

[Guardian]

Parties is fun. Glork is scum? Why? I find suspicious too but mainly gut, not many have made a case.

[Glork]

Why are you up for a guardian lynch and what specifically turned you away from inhim?

Guardian:
1) The reasons I had given yesterday. See my previous posts for details.
2) MoS spent time steering people away from Guardian and towards YB, asserting that Guardian was an "easy" lynch, but a bad one, without giving proper reasoning why.
3) Guardian's initial posts of the day. No decent protown player would hope that a lynchee is town just for their own survival.

inHim: *shrug* I just looked at inHim's posts again, and the felt more genuine than I had previously believed. Call it "gut" if you must.

Also glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. hmm?

Do you need me to start linking games where people found me scummy but I was town?

I find it rather absurd that you're taking one player's opinion and using it as law to meta me. For the record, the player who said that about me was Zindaras.
1) Zindaras and I have been playing mafia together since before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I can say with the utmost confidence that there is no other player who can get more out of my posts to get a good read on me.
2) What one player (in this case, Zindaras) believes to be pro-town is not always what another player believes to be pro-town. This statement is proven by simple observation. If everybody thought that the same things were pro-town, all of the townies would agree on every lynch. The fact that there's so much debate in each and every mafia game, even amongst protown players, is testament to the fact that no two players find the same things pro-town or scummy.
**Case in point: My assessment of Albert's play in this very game. He alleged that shameless bandwagoning was a good way of hunting scum. I told him that he was going about it all wrong, that it takes a specific eye for reactions to bandwagons to make such tactics effective, and that even then it's a very dangerous game to play.
**Further case in point: The debate regarding BM's alleged "always scumminess." Some argue that BM is responsible for his actions in each game, regardless of what the meta towards him is. BM asserted that instead of just saying "oh, he's being scummy again, let's vote him" players should be looking at what makes him scum this time around as to the scummy town that he "usually" is.

Jack, let me ask you this: Do you honestly believe that any single player can "reek of pro-town"

every time

that they are pro-town, and that they

never

"reek of pro-town" when they are scum?

FoS: Shteven

for his open speculation on A) Whether there is a Vig; and B) Whether that Vig chose to take action or not... it seems like he wants to be hunting power roles, not scum.

I'm sure he'd mention his discomfort because of my overwhelming townie-ness.

Honestly, there's only one thing that is preventing me from attacking you right now, and it sure as hell isn't your self-proclaimed "overhwelming townie-ness."

I still have yet to see a case against me besides "this is scummy," "gut," and "I agree that he looks suspicous." TCS at least made a legitimate effort yesterday, when comparing my behavior to a previous game as scum, but I already pointed out several key differences between that game and this one. inHim thought he was making a legitimate case, but apparently misread the timing of my posts and actions. I don't think anybody else has said anything specific about my play; Jack has made three or four "this seems scummy" comments, but I do not believe that he has yet stated why. Shteven tried to make a case based on my attacking him -- which was not only flawed in assumption, but really boils down to little more than OMGUS anyway. ("You're attacking me and I'm pro-town and you're a good scumhunter, so you're very likely scum." -- Burden of Proficiency

and

OMGUS rolled into one.)

I find suspicious too but mainly gut

Either attempt to substantiate your "gut" or play fuel-the-wagon somewhere else. I grow tired of this charade.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I grow tired of this charade.

It's precisely this sort of defensive remark that I'm a little worried about.

[Glork]

I grow tired of this charade.

It's precisely this sort of defensive remark that I'm a little worried about.

Why?

Make a case against me

if you think I am scum, instead of just saying "I am worried; this is scummy."

[Guardian]

whee I'm.... drunk. i'm town in this game I think. Glork, suspecting that I am a decent townie may be giving me too much credit. hai all

Glork are you scum?

[HackerHuck]

Boy is Glork really on the defensive. I've seen similar comments made about others and never a reaction such as this. Not having played with you before Glork, are you always this overdefensive?

Jack, let me ask you this: Do you honestly believe that any single player can "reek of pro-town" every time that they are pro-town, and that they never "reek of pro-town" when they are scum?

Glork, you should know better than to use this as a defence. It's the same as if you said that we should ignore scum tells, because they aren't 100% indicative of alignment.

I'm not ready for your wagon yet, but the fact that you now think Guardian is scum doesn't dissuade me from his wagon either.

[Zindaras]

^_^

Glork still wuvs me.

Someone else doesn't. Or even multiple someone elses!

Meaniepantses! (and meaniepanties, meanieskirts (*giggles*, oh, the punniness!), meanienothings and meaniedresses)

[Battle Mage]

whee I'm.... drunk. i'm town in this game I think. Glork, suspecting that I am a decent townie may be giving me too much credit. hai all

Glork are you scum?

You were so obviously sober when you made this post, it's hilarious.

I'm a tad suspicious of Glork for his post with regard to Guardian, in which he threatened to vote, but then didnt. Glork doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would be hesitant with a vote if they thought someone was even the slightest bit scummy.

I could see a Guardian-Glork scumpair, but i'd still feel more comfortable lynching Guardian first.

[YogurtBandit]

^_^

Glork still wuvs me.

Someone else doesn't. Or even multiple someone elses!

Meaniepantses! (and meaniepanties, meanieskirts (*giggles*, oh, the punniness!), meanienothings and meaniedresses)

Hehe, the Meanies, could be pronounced like Mini and become even more punny!

[Zindaras]

Hehe, the Meanies, could be pronounced like Mini and become even more punny!

I see you have already grasped the thought behind the meanieskirt. You learn quickly, my young Pundawan.

Okay, now I'm really going to shut up.

[BillyTwilight]

That Billytwilight can honestly think I'm scum at this point makes me question his judgment about everything else.

Sorry, TCS, I guess I missed the posts where you were confirmed town.

---

Just got through a reread of MoS w/out context. MoS came into the game with a vote of MBL and a FoS of YB. Stuck with this until YB continued to answer questions directed to other players, whereupon he switched his vote to YB. He made a defense of Guardian and Shteven, and continued an attack on MBL for the majority of his time in the game. I don't see MBL being scum here, but I can still see YB being scum. The original FoS would have been a warning, and the vote was a jump-ship when he thought YB looked like he was a sure lynch for the day. Nevertheless my surety of YB being scum was lessened somewhat by the re-read. I can't tell if MoS voted him as a bus or if MoS voted him as an easy mislynch. Vote stays for now.

As far as Guardian and Shteven go, my suspicion of Guardian has largely been due to his interaction with YB. The fact that MoS worked to try and keep Guardian's wagon as small as possible is a point against Guardian. If YB, Guardian, and MoS are all scum I can see MoS being willing to bus one of them, but not 2 so early in the game. As for Shteven, MoS' entry post into the game had Shteven as scummy at first then becoming more protown. After that he largely ignored Shteven, even when asked about Shteven by Glork. When pushed on it he simply said that "Shteven doesn't really look all that scummy". Those are the biggest interactions that I have seen with MoS and other players so far this game.

The weak wagon against Glork is stupid. You guys are seriously wanting to go after him because he's seems only sorta pro-town and not town enough, and that Glork gets defensive when someone mentions that as a point against him? As many scummy players as there have been in this game, these are the reason you chose to attack a player? Sheesh.

[YogurtBandit]

Hehe, the Meanies, could be pronounced like Mini and become even more punny!

I see you have already grasped the thought behind the meanieskirt. You learn quickly, my young Pundawan.

Okay, now I'm really going to shut up.

Yay, Im Zindys Pundawan!

[LoudmouthLee]

Hehe, the Meanies, could be pronounced like Mini and become even more punny!

I see you have already grasped the thought behind the meanieskirt. You learn quickly, my young Pundawan.

Okay, now I'm really going to shut up.

Yay, Im Zindys Pundawan!

Game relevant, please.

[Glork]

Glork are you scum?

Of course not. Are you?

Boy is Glork really on the defensive. I've seen similar comments made about others and never a reaction such as this. Not having played with you before Glork, are you always this overdefensive?

Two things:

First, I feel that every attack, whether laid out in explicit detail or vague and poorly-defined, should be addressed to whatever extent the defendant feels. While I wouldn't say I defend myself

this

fervently in every game, it is fairly common for me to examine and analyze each post which portrays me in a negative light.

Second, the fact that similar comments have been made of others tells us something: The players in this game have been exceptionally lazy about their scumhunting so far. There are far too many "I feel that X is scummy" or "My gut says X is scum" or "I agree with Y that X is suspicous" comments, and not nearly enough detailed, logical, well-explained cases presented against players. Simply put, we cannot and will not win this game if we all just play our gut. The other purpose behind my defenses has been to try to get players to look at their own play and at each others' play.

What do

YOU

think about the attacks agianst me, HH?

Do you think that any solid cases have been presented against me? If so, which one(s)? If not, what do you think this says about my various attackers?

[Guardian]

unvote vote: inHimIshallbe

I'd say why, but cases are scummy.

[Guardian]

ebwop: lol, meant to hit preview there, but now that it's there I don't disagree with the sentiment so whatever.

Read the first few pages with Coron's two posts, and then read inHim in isolation. I don't like it.

[YogurtBandit]

So you wont tell us why because cases are scummy?

[Shteven]

I will say that I do like Glork's last post. I agree that you should respond to each attack against you, and have no problem with being perceived as defensive. The last line is a bit condescending, yes, but that doesn't mean it's scum anymore than it's frustrated town.

One thing that was definitely wrong is accusing me of role hunting, though. People were talking about vig kills, why didn't we have one, etc. I was simply trying to say that we may very well not have a vig, so don't depend on it. I didn't even give the full list of possible cases, which is unlike me. I should have also mentioned that the vig's kill could have been doc protected, or (as I think someone else mentioned) a double kill and LML just reported the first one. These are both unlikely, but I usually like to include unlikely cases for completeness.

In summary though, there's nothing wrong with saying that we may not have a vig. We may not have a doctor. We may not have any cops (alive). We had one, who died, and we could have had 0, 1, or 2 in total. I don't even know how you'd go about trying to find someone with a power role, but mentioning that they may not exist isn't going to out them. I'm not expecting any response to this from anyone. Merely a reminder.

P.S. I will certainly say that we do need to raise the bar on making cases. This isn't day 1 anymore, and I'll follow up with some better detail on Glork sometime. Past midnight on a work night here already

[Shteven]

To clarify, I liked post #1490.

His previous post 1478 was the one that talked about role hunting.

[Glork]

Vote: Guardian

You can die now, scum.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Glork, have you changed your mind about Shteven?

[Yosarian2]

Good thinking, Glork. This is definatly a good time to bus your buddy Guardian.

vote:Guardian

[Guardian]

Yos2, Glork could be scum, but I am not scum. FYI...

Reasoning, anyone?

This wagon is silly .