Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[Jalyn]

Adel, what do you think about my logic from this post:

Do you have any thoughts as to Sir Tornado's most likely partner, if he is scum?

Well...

It's highty WIFOM, but the fact that he pointed at three people and said "if we lynch one of them and they are innocent, we'll start lynching masons" tends to indicate that the majority of the people being pointed at weren't guilty. I

think

Adel was more likely to be lynched at that point than Lawrencelot, so I guess I'd put the list at:

Lowell
Lawrencelot
Adel

I'm going to hold off voting, but without rereading the Tornado lynch, I'd say that Lowell is my best guess for the last mafia.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote. Vote: SirTornado

<Waits for cookies>

To me, the chance that he's scum is more than 50%. About Lowell, I'm more than 75% sure, about Adel I'm about 25% sure. There aren't that many other options, so now that I think of it SirT was second on my list most of the time, but I focused too much on Lowell.

Hammered (not that I'm proud, but so that the mod knows the day should end)

I'm sure that he will use a WIFOM argument in his defense, but I'm not buying it.

vote:Lawrencelot

for bussing his scummate.

Oh come on. I don't mind if someone votes me for good reason, but for bussing? I never said a bad thing about SirT, then I hammered him because I was out of options (and it was the good thing I now know), and you call that bussing?

People, if you vote me, please come up with something better than this.

For me, only 2 people are left (well Jalyn too), but I really don't have a clue who of Lowell and Adel are more likely to be SirT's partner. I think, because Adel didn't play many games yet, she would be more likely to be ryan's partner (as in D1) than Lowell. So,

Vote: Adel

. But looking at SirT only, I don't know who is his most likely partner.

[Adel]

About Lowell, I'm more than 75% sure, about Adel I'm about 25% sure. There aren't that many other options, so now that I think of it SirT was second on my list most of the time, but I focused too much on Lowell.

I think, because Adel didn't play many games yet, she would be more likely to be ryan's partner (as in D1) than Lowell.

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

[Lowell]

After another day of lengthy discussion, four people eventually agree that Sir Tornado needs to go. As his head is forced into the rope necklace, Sir Tornado is given the chance for some final words. He solemnly declares, "I am Mafia. Sorry guys." Not suprisingly, this roleclaim does little to deter the lynch mob, and in less than a minute, Sir Tornado is dead. A search of his home reveals that after a game of telling lies, he was telling the truth at the end of the day. Sir Tornado was a member of the mafia. Only one left now.

Sir Tornado (Mafia) has been lynched.

Well I'll be damned. Albert was right about something after all.

I'm 100% sure at this point that the last mafia member is Adel or Lawrence. I'm leaning towards Lawrence, particularly given Adel's last post.

[Lawrencelot]

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

Now I am not 75% sure about Lowell, because I don't think it's that likely that he is SirT's partner. It is possible though. What do you mean with lying my suspicion towards Lowell? I voted you now, because SirT and ryan are scum, therefore you are a more likely scumparter than Lowell. Before I knew SirT was scum (and before bird got replaced), I thought Lowell was more likely scum than you. What's scummy about this?

I'm 100% sure at this point that the last mafia member is Adel or Lawrence. I'm leaning towards Lawrence, particularly given Adel's last post.

Lol, of course you are sure about that. And I'm 100% sure (well a bit less because Jalyn still can be scum) that either you or Adel is scum. And Adel is probably 100% sure that either you or me is scum.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Lawrencelot (1) -- Adel
Adel (1) -- Lawrencelot

Not Voting: Lowell, Jalyn, Ripley
5 alive, 3 to lynch.

[Ripley]

I think Lawrencelot is the most suspicious, both individually and as a scum partner for the known scum.

I can't forget Sir Tornado's question to Lowell at the start of Day 3:

Why Lawrencelot? Why not Adel? Any difference between them, or are you totally convinced that they are the two scum (as you said yesterday) and you don't care in which order they are lynched

Would Sir T bother saying that if Lawrencelot and Adel were both innocent? Unlikely. More unlikely still if Adel were scum with him.

Well...

It's highty WIFOM, but the fact that he pointed at three people and said "if we lynch one of them and they are innocent, we'll start lynching masons" tends to indicate that the majority of the people being pointed at weren't guilty. I think Adel was more likely to be lynched at that point than Lawrencelot, so I guess I'd put the list at:

Lowell
Lawrencelot
Adel

I see what Jalyn's getting at here but I don't entirely agree with her conclusions. It's a bit confusing that there were two different, though overlapping, A/R/L groups around at the time:

1. Lowell/Adel/ryan - dedicated to fighting lurkers, everywhere
2. Adel/ryan/Lawrencelot - underminers, discrediters and deniers of the claimed masons

This can lead to confusion about which trio is being referred to.

If the voting goes as per the current trend, we will have our lynch before we hear from everyone and I don't want that to happen. I will be happy to vote for Adel, Ryan or Lowell before this day is over.

Here it's the lurkerhunters on the block.

I really think that the answer here is quite simple. Today, we lynch Adel/Ryan/Lawrencalot. If one of them is scum, then we're good to go.

Give me one reason why we shouldn't lynch YOU or ABR if your choice of lynch turns out to be a townie? Ok, so, you've claimed mason, and I believe that for now, but I will have major doubts over that if your lynch does not turn out to be a scum.

Your saying we lynch A/R/L today and Aimee/Bird tomorrow if the first lynch is a townie sounds highly suspicious to me. The reason being, that if we get 2 lynches incorrect, we lose the game. It is as simple as that. This is exactly what a Scum would do.

This is a response to papaya's Post 343 so, if he's paying attention, Sir T should know that the trio now up for eviction are Adel, Ryan and

Lawrencelot

. This worries me a bit. You would expect, as Jalyn says, with Sir T threatening to lynch a mason tomorrow if today's lynch turns up town, he's going to be fairly confident that the lynch

will

be town. On the face of it this argues against ryan and Lawrence both being scum. (This, I think, is why Jalyn has Lowell top of her list).

However, Sir T might not have been paying close attention, and got confused by his own abbreviation, thinking the L refered to Lowell as it had earlier. Or it could have seemed, to him, clear that Adel would be the one lynched (she had both masons and Theo voting her already) so that the others in the group hardly mattered. What does seem clear is that this is more very strong evidence against Adel being scum.

Adel, Ryan and one of Lawrencelot/Lowell may be scums. We lynch one today, see if they turn out to be innocent. If they do, we go after the scummiest looking person on board: A Papaya (I would definitely be voting A Papaya right now, had he not been a claimed mason

Now Lawrencelot and Lowell are both in the pot along with A and R. Murkier than ever. The one thing that remains constant is Adel leads the voting and is favorite to go.

Also in Adel's favor is her comment about actively looking for evidence to clear ryan. I don't see scum saying that about a fellow scum.

Overall I think it's probable that Adel's an innocent who's been used.

Jalyn's done nothing wrong but can't be ruled out. There was nobody present in that role for the vast majority of the game, so no opportunity to make mistakes. Her first post with content (775) has SIr T at the top of her suspect list and she then (776) launches a sustained attack on him. She could just about be scum. Sir T hadn't been holding up too well under my questioning and his position might have been about to collapse, in which case leading the charge on him would probably be the game-winning play. So, I'm ranking Jalyn as an outside chance.

I have some notes somewhere about Lowell/Sir T and why I thought they weren't a likely pair. I'll dig them out later.

[Adel]

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

Now I am not 75% sure about Lowell, because I don't think it's that likely that he is SirT's partner. It is possible though. What do you mean with lying my suspicion towards Lowell? I voted you now, because SirT and ryan are scum, therefore you are a more likely scumparter than Lowell. Before I knew SirT was scum (and before bird got replaced), I thought Lowell was more likely scum than you. What's scummy about this?

In the post where you hammered Sir T you said that you were 75% sure Lowell was guilty, and you were 25% sure that I was guilty. Why did your opinion of our scumminess swing to the point that you are more suspicious of me than you are of Lowell? If there is evidence linking me to Sir T, I'm sure the other players would like to hear it, and of there is evidence establishing that Sir T and Lowell can not be scummates I know I would like to hear it.

I think you made a mistake in thinking that I would be an easier target for a mislynch than Lowell. Your vote for Sir T came so late, after it was clear that he was either going to be hammered by another player or the deadline.

[Lowell]

vote Lawrence

I've heard enough. I've been trying to lynch this guy before it was cool.

Finish this game already.

[Lawrencelot]

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

Now I am not 75% sure about Lowell, because I don't think it's that likely that he is SirT's partner. It is possible though. What do you mean with lying my suspicion towards Lowell? I voted you now, because SirT and ryan are scum, therefore you are a more likely scumparter than Lowell. Before I knew SirT was scum (and before bird got replaced), I thought Lowell was more likely scum than you. What's scummy about this?

In the post where you hammered Sir T you said that you were 75% sure Lowell was guilty, and you were 25% sure that I was guilty. Why did your opinion of our scumminess swing to the point that you are more suspicious of me than you are of Lowell? If there is evidence linking me to Sir T, I'm sure the other players would like to hear it, and of there is evidence establishing that Sir T and Lowell can not be scummates I know I would like to hear it.

I think you made a mistake in thinking that I would be an easier target for a mislynch than Lowell. Your vote for Sir T came so late, after it was clear that he was either going to be hammered by another player or the deadline.

I had a feeling you were more on SirT's side than Lowell, but I don't have evidence. But for the same reason, if SirT turned up town, I think I would've voted Lowell. But with the latest post, like this one, I am less sure. Your argument (last paragraph) isn't bad, therefore

Unvote: Adel

. If I get lynched: I don't know who of Adel and Lowell is more scummy. Now they're 50-50 for me. And theres still Jalyn. Town shouldn't lynch me now, maybe if they lynched me earlier they could get some information from it, but now I cannot say who I find more scummy.

[Jalyn]

Reread ryan, Sir Tornado, Lowell and Lawrencelot

Aaaaaaargh, I made a post with reactions to like 20 quotes, then I pressed preview, got an error and then it was gone... I copied everything, because I get these errors more often, but then I copied something else while I got the error, before I had a chance to paste it again...

Alright, what do I do now. I'll just make a summary of everything I wanted to post, since it cost me more than half an hour to make the post, seriously. Heres in short what I wanted to post, in fact it were reactions to a lot of quotes starting from page 15.

Summary:
ABR is scum. Arguments against this statement: a) he claimed mason b) there was no counterclaim. Arguments for this statement: 1. claiming mason doesn't mean he's mason 2. he claimed it at a moment when it was not necessary 3. a papaya did only make anti-town posts and ABR is on A Papaya's side 4. ABR threatened the town 5. ABR is 100% sure of Adel's alignment all the time 6. ABR wants to lynch Adel all the time 7. ABR insults people. Counterarguments: a) scum can also claim mason b) if I was mason, I wouldn't have counterclaimed until a mason was close to a lynch b) the inactives could be mason too.

A Papaya is scum too, obviously.

The third one could be either theo, ripley or a lurker. Since not both theo and ripley can be scum, I don't know who the third member is.

Adel is townie. a) she's no mason b) she acts like a townie c) she tries to hunt scum d) she is not 100% sure of anybody's alignment. Only argument against this statement that I know of is this one: 1. She wanted to "clear ryan".

I am against a massclaim.

We either lynch ABR, A Papaya or we make up a plan that does not reveal a mason

, neither reveals someone on A Papaya and ABR's side (since that wouldn't help if they speak the truth, and that wouldn't be needed yet if they are scum).

So, no claims please. I'm fine with a mason claim if any mason is close to being lynched though.

Heres a diagram I made:

Scum----------------------------Neutral------------------------------Adel's side
ABR
A Papaya
-----------Theopor
-----------Ripley
-----------------------------------SirTornado
-----------------------------------Lurkers
---------------------------------------------------ryan
---------------------------------------------------Lowell?
--------------------------------------------------------------Lawrencelot
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Adel

I really commented on 20-30 quotes, and I really hate it that it is gone. Forgive me, and please hate my computer.

Well, Lowell sure had a change of mind. It is easy to say all those things at this point. After the ABR claim you weren't like this. Now it's almost out of the question that ABR and Papaya are scum, but back then... I hope you can see why me and Adel didn't believe it. And how come you now congratulate ABR for playing well, while it appeared to me that you found his actions terrible after he claimed? (like the fake dealine etc)

I admit I took Adel's side. But now I'm on the side of the others, like ripley and such.

If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie.

I still think Adel acted very townie-like during the game, although Aimee's post almost persuaded me. In another game, I was also focusing solely on voting lurkers, but although I was scum in that game, I wasn't doing that because I was scum. I won't vote Adel yet, she has a right to defend herself (and I hope you give me that right when I will get lynched.

But my important question remains unanswered:

Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

Bolding is Mine. After finding those,especially the bolded bits, I can see a Lawrencelot lynch. Anything we need to discuss before a hammer?

[Lowell]

Just do it. It should be game over.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Lawrencelot (2) -- Adel, Lowell

Not Voting: Jalyn, Ripley, Lawrencelot
5 alive, 3 to lynch.

[Jalyn]

I see no reason to rush the day. I haven't even had a chance to go back and read Adel yet.

[Adel]

There is always a chance of a mislynch (not that I am hesitating about my vote in any way) so we could start the what-if game by considering what we would (if alive) do tomorrow if Law does turn up town, and asking questions that are helpful for that.

[Jalyn]

Well, in this game at least it wouldn't be telling the scum who not to kill. If Law turns up town, who do you think should be next Adel? Lowell?

[Jalyn]

Er. That wasn't a suggestion, I was addressing the question to both of you.

[Adel]

I'm psychic: Lowell will answer "Adel" and Adel will answer "Lowell".








Lowell. Our lack of evidence against Jalyn/bird1111 is exactly why I was against letting lurkers lurk st the beginning of the game. I don't have any scum tells against her, but it is fairly easy to pretend to be protown after everyone has revealed their hand. She really did set the Sir Tornado wagon in motion though, and I wouldn't expect scum to bus that early.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm finding Lowell much more scummy than Adel now, as he wants to rush this day and Adel does not. I'm fine with a Lawrencelot lynch if Lowell will be next (because I am town). Be careful though: there are 4 townies left (I'll just call Ripley a townie now) vs 1 scum, lynch me and next day you will have 2 townies left vs 1 scum. Because scum will most probably kill Ripley, Adel Lowell and Jalyn are left, and if these 3 are left I'm not sure town will make the right choice.

[Jalyn]

Lawrencelot - do you have any response to the posts that I pulled out as looking really scummy?

[Lawrencelot]

I don't know why the things you bolded look scummy. Maybe the things you bolded were

not

scummy, and the rest was? Well, I'll give a reaction anyway, but I didn't think it was worth commenting on.

We either lynch ABR, A Papaya or we make up a plan that does not reveal a mason

I really thought they were not the masons, which isn't scummy because at that point they both acted really really scummy. I thought there were other real masons, which I didn't want to get revealed.

So, no claims please. I'm fine with a mason claim if any mason is close to being lynched though

What I found strange was that others kept saying: "why didn't any other mason counter-claim if they are not the masons?" I thought, while I thought ABR and Papaya were not masons, that the "real" masons would only come out if any of them were close to a lynch. I wanted to protect the masons, which I believed exist, until D2.

If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie

People saw me on Adel's side, so I offered a Lawrencelot lynch, but only after an Adel lynch.

But my important question remains unanswered: Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

This was an important question, although then I already believed ABR and A Papaya were masons. No one gave a good answer, even up until now, but now the question isn't important anymore.

So, I don't really understand your accusation against me Jalyn. If it's just that I didn't believe the masons, you can accuse me for that, although I gave my reactions to that many many times.

[Adel]

:good posting: you scored points but I still am not convinced. Is Lowell still your best guess for scum?

[Lawrencelot]

Yes. I think I'm gonna vote him, but I'm finding it very hard to be sure who is scum now. He doesn't seem to find it hard, so that's another argument.

Vote: Lowell.

[Jalyn]

Actually, I thought the reason the bolded bits were scummy was fairly obvious, but I'll give an explaination as well:

I don't know why the things you bolded look scummy. Maybe the things you bolded were

not

scummy, and the rest was? Well, I'll give a reaction anyway, but I didn't think it was worth commenting on.

We either lynch ABR, A Papaya or we make up a plan that does not reveal a mason

I really thought they were not the masons, which isn't scummy because at that point they both acted really really scummy. I thought there were other real masons, which I didn't want to get revealed.

You didn't want the "real masons" revealed so you thought it would be a good idea to lynch one of the two claimed masons on no evidence what-so-ever. Would you lynch a claimed cop on day 1 with no counterclaim or would you wait for a reason to do so? This can be read like you wanted to lynch one of the masons without forcing one of your scum buddies to fake claim, as you knew no one else would counterclaim.

So, no claims please. I'm fine with a mason claim if any mason is close to being lynched though

What I found strange was that others kept saying: "why didn't any other mason counter-claim if they are not the masons?" I thought, while I thought ABR and Papaya were not masons, that the "real" masons would only come out if any of them were close to a lynch. I wanted to protect the masons, which I believed exist, until D2.

Same problem as above.

If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie

People saw me on Adel's side, so I offered a Lawrencelot lynch, but only after an Adel lynch.

Tying yourself to Adel and trying to look like your allignment rests on what Adel's allignment is. Agreeing to lynch her and if she's scum, then the town can lynch you, if she's town, it's an argument against your lynch

But my important question remains unanswered: Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

This was an important question, although then I already believed ABR and A Papaya were masons. No one gave a good answer, even up until now, but now the question isn't important anymore.

Except that this is just bringing up Sir Tornado's argument that "if the masons aren't night killed, then they must be fake and we'll lynch them." Which is pretty much what we lynched Sir Tornado for yesterday.

So, I don't really understand your accusation against me Jalyn. If it's just that I didn't believe the masons, you can accuse me for that, although I gave my reactions to that many many times.

Does that make more sense?

:good posting:

Not really.

He doesn't seem to find it hard, so that's another argument. Vote: Lowell.

That

, however, is interesting.

[Lawrencelot]

You didn't want the "real masons" revealed so you thought it would be a good idea to lynch one of the two claimed masons on no evidence what-so-ever. Would you lynch a claimed cop on day 1 with no counterclaim or would you wait for a reason to do so? This can be read like you wanted to lynch one of the masons without forcing one of your scum buddies to fake claim, as you knew no one else would counterclaim.

Yes I would lynch a claimed cop if he acted scummy as hell. I had enough reasons to vote them, but I still turned out to be wrong in the end. I didn't know no one else would counterclaim, because I believed there were "real" masons.

Your other arguments are good, I can't defend myself against that. I was tied to Adel and SirTornado.