Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Glork]

Also, regarding the second part of your post: "It seemed quite obviuos to me at the time" is

REFERRING TO FRITZ'S RESPONSE, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHEN I REALIZED THAT HE WAS THE COP.

This is

perfectly

consistent with all of my posting and with what I just said.

[MrBuddyLee]

his soft stance towards CDB D1, his rapid flip-flop on CDB D2 (remember that he tried to turn off the CDB wagon by stating that the people on it were suspicious)

Are you talking about yourself here? You didn't mention CDB a single time during D1.

D2, you placed him safely behind your top 3 suspects:

My list is currently MGM, then Thesp/Adele (they're pretty interchangable), then CDB, then Ether

And later D2:

Thesp/CDB have slipped a bit

and then you said someone attacking CDB was suspicious:

the fact that MGM/Adele so readily jumped aboard the Thespwagon seems very dubious. Adele took a shot at Ether shortly after I implicated her.

I believe (though I may misremember) that she took a shot at CDB around the time he picked up some suspicion.

And now that the Thesplynch seems chic, she's climbing aboard for certain.

Opportunism galore!

Oh, and before you accuse me of being soft on CDB D1/D2, you included me in the short list of people "poking at him D2":

With a couple of players (Thesp, MBL, myself) having poked at CDB

, it seemed like you were appealing to others for some kind of basis on which to bandwagon.

And now a vote. I guess you know Patrick's town somehow... either this is the same townie certainty that's gotten you 50-50 results on BM, Zindy, CES and CDB, or else you're scum who's found an intractable situation and is choosing their only possible target at this juncture.

[MrBuddyLee]

So again, did you realize Fritz was the cop the moment you read this for the first time on March 15th:

yes, cuz he's not scum and you guys are retarded

Or did you realize he was the cop the second time you read that, while you were in the middle of your reread and PBPA later?

And for emphasis, you claim to have missed all the other cop hints in Feb/March, including when you were disappointed about him asking Thesp instead of you

"who's the play?"

on February 23rd?

Because later, you claim to know EXACTLY what

"who's the play?"

means coming from Fritz:

I could be mistaken, but I think that his N2 investigation was me, as indicated by his

"Hey Glork, who's the play?"

post. It's quite typical of the way he behaves when he gets an innocent -- he indicates complete trust in his target.

[Mgm]

Mgm:

your assessment of "why MBL wouldn't keep Mgm alive" really is nothing more than WIFOM, at best. It is more likely a flawed observation.

I encourage you to look at Thesp's posts. You'll find that Thesp definitely thought that I was pro-town, and he said that Patrick was reasonble, too. Look at this post (Thesp's last posted thoughts on everyone). You and MBL are

CLEARLY

his top suspects over Glork/Patrick. And given that CES died as the Godfather, that leaves only MBL as his top suspect.

You're trying to use Thesp's supposed scumhunting abilities to lead to a suspect when at the same time you rely on the same reasoning to clear yourself. (It almost sounds like you killed Thesp to make it possible to use this reasoning) Thesp was wrong to suspect me. So he could be equally wrong about suspecting MBL or trusting you and Patrick.

[Mgm]

I'd expect you to butter up Fritz at that point, in an attempt to avoid investigation, and that's exactly what happened. You knew Fritz was a cop D2, didn't you? You knew he had an investigation on Thesp and you voted Thesp anyway!

And how would going through with lynching an investigated innocent keep Glork from being investigated? That sounds nothing like buttering up Fritz.

[Mgm]

I've seen people acknowledge their own scummy behavior and bring up points that could be used against themselves just to look more innocent.

Again, what scummy behaviour have I brought up or acknowledged? What are you referring to?

Note to self (and everyone else): I need to cover this in my reread of this day. I forgot exactly what it was about, but I'm pretty sure it was either something he said today or something I covered in my notes.

[Mgm]

Glork, let's suppose for a moment that MBL and CES were both scum.
Why didn't they push or even try to justify an MBL lynch in some way? Lynching CES the GF means I became confirmed innocent. They would've had more wiggle room and no confirmed innocents today, if they gave up MBL instead - a lot better position to be in.

[Mgm]

Oh and here's a nice day 3 post (after the day 2 no lynch):

Patrick says he doesn't want to lynch Thesp and he clearly knows that a lack of votes will lead to a no lynch. So I find it odd that he says Ether needs to get looked at "tomorrow". Why didn't he put his vote where his mouth was and try to get Ether lynched then?

What exactly would be the point in waiting?

[Mgm]

He claims he believed Ether couldn't be lynched (despite several people calling Ether scummy). Well obviously! You can't lynch someone if you don't try.

[Mgm]

MBL, I suggest you revisit day 3, especially post 922.

[Mgm]

Hi MBL. Thanks for the exagerated surprise and outrage. It's entertaining. I admit to my vote on mgm being useless, since I didn't plan on lynching him. And despite the fact that Ether would never have been lynched, maybe I should have voted her. Couldn't be any worse than voting mgm I suppose.

Here's one of those examples of you admitting something scummy, Patrick

[Mgm]

Quickly going through the day 2 and day 3 posts of Glork and Fritzler has me convinced Fritzler investigated Glork during the night in between which means I now have 2 suspects left.

[Patrick]

Glork, let's suppose for a moment that MBL and CES were both scum.
Why didn't they push or even try to justify an MBL lynch in some way? Lynching CES the GF means I became confirmed innocent. They would've had more wiggle room and no confirmed innocents today, if they gave up MBL instead - a lot better position to be in.

As I remember it CES did push for an MBL lynch.

The day 2 no lynch argument against me is something with which I'm thoroughly bored of arguing with you about. I have made it perfectly clear that I did not think Ether could be lynched because she had it in her power to hammer Thesp. Certainly if she was scum and Thesp town, she'd have hammered him. If anything, piling extra votes on Ether would likely have just encouraged a Thesp hammer, regardless of her alignment. I was more interested in deciding whether or not to hammer Thesp. With the hindsight that both Thesp and Ether were protown, I'd like you to explain how holding off voting either of them is meant to be scummy. (And in a post today, you said that both MBL and Patrick held off hammering an innocent Thesp, leaving Glork suspect).

Hi MBL. Thanks for the exagerated surprise and outrage. It's entertaining. I admit to my vote on mgm being useless, since I didn't plan on lynching him. And despite the fact that Ether would never have been lynched, maybe I should have voted her. Couldn't be any worse than voting mgm I suppose.

Here's one of those examples of you admitting something scummy, Patrick

No, I admitted to being indecisive. I apologised for not carrying out the token gesture of voting Ether, whom I felt couldn't realisticaly be lynched at that point anyway. I didn't at any point say that I'd acted scummy. And in the general sense, I'm not sure I even agree with the "scumtell" anyway. If I'm being attacked, I'll always try to counter it with logical arguments and explain what I was thinking, but if I think that someone has a valid attack on me (which I don't tend to think all that often I grant you but it does happen) I'll concede the point and move on rather than being a stubborn idiot. I don't think that would be a scumtell.

[Patrick]

And incidentally Mgm, if you strongly believe in that "scumtell", what did you think of Glork's post 464 first paragraph? He admits that his Andrew vote looks scummy. Should we run him up for it? Does it make him scum? No it just means he admitted it and moved on rather than trying to defend something that couldn't really be defended. I don't agree with this scumtell you're claiming.

[Glork]

Mgm:

your assessment of "why MBL wouldn't keep Mgm alive" really is nothing more than WIFOM, at best. It is more likely a flawed observation.

I encourage you to look at Thesp's posts. You'll find that Thesp definitely thought that I was pro-town, and he said that Patrick was reasonble, too. Look at this post (Thesp's last posted thoughts on everyone). You and MBL are

CLEARLY

his top suspects over Glork/Patrick. And given that CES died as the Godfather, that leaves only MBL as his top suspect.

You're trying to use Thesp's supposed scumhunting abilities to lead to a suspect when at the same time you rely on the same reasoning to clear yourself. (It almost sounds like you killed Thesp to make it possible to use this reasoning) Thesp was wrong to suspect me. So he could be equally wrong about suspecting MBL or trusting you and Patrick.

I'm exactly not trying to convince you that MBL had to have killed Thesp. I'm pointing out why "I can't stomach MBL leaving me alive" is not a reliable conclusion to make... I was concerned about you shutting out MBLscum as a possibility, because I really think that MBL is the last scumbag right now.

[Glork]

Glork, let's suppose for a moment that MBL and CES were both scum.
Why didn't they push or even try to justify an MBL lynch in some way? Lynching CES the GF means I became confirmed innocent. They would've had more wiggle room and no confirmed innocents today, if they gave up MBL instead - a lot better position to be in.

I actually think that MBL's quick vote on CES was an attempt to get somebody (like me) scared for a quicklynch enough to make a move on MBL. The idea that MBL just slapped a lynch-1 vote on CES *didn't* make any sense, whether MBL was town or scum. I wonder if MBL's thought process was "jump at CES, get myeslf lynched, have the town push Patrick or Mgm tomorrow." It was obvious that CES was doing nothing to try to stay alive; he had really given up at that point. I think that MBL was trying to salvage the game by making it look as though he went for a quicklynch on CES.

[Patrick]

I tend to agree with that. It seems like a reasonable move if they are scum together, and it always seemed likely one was getting lynched yesterday. In that case they'd rather it was MBL. Then nobody gets cleared and everyone is paranoid about whether he was trying to quicklynch. Makes CES look better, sets up MBL/Patrick and MBL/Mgm connections, and forces us to keep considering MBL/Thesp.

[Patrick]

I think the whole thing about whether or not people realised Fritzler was a cop hasn't been as interesting to me as to some people. At one point we were asking everyone whether or not they had spotted it, but scum can easily lie and say they hadn't spotted Fritz as cop even if they had. CES claimed he wasn't onto Fritz, and he turned out to be scum. Only him and his scumbuddy knows who was onto Fritzler. I'm satisfied with most of Glork's responses over the past few pages, but I think I too need it clarifying when exactly you claim to have had that duh moment and realised Fritzler was a cop, because you seem to have two different times given.

[MrBuddyLee]

Thank you, Patrick. I was beginning to think my hours of work over the weekend had gone for naught.

[Glork]

The "duh" moment came with [url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 783Fritz's response to my question[/url] that I linked to already:

But there's a difference bewteen being lynch-happy and letting a deadline run out because you don't want to lynch.


Just answer these few questions for now, Fritz: Did you prefer No-Lynch over lynching Thesp? If so, why? If not, why did you not hammer near deadline?

yes, cuz he's not scum and you guys are retarded

If you'd go look at the surrounding posts, that happened near the beginning of Day Three, inbetween Parts II and III of my analysis.


My response to MGM:

Can someone point out the exact post that made them think Fritzler investigated Thesp?

Very beginning of D3, I ask Fritz what he thought about possibly lynching Thesp. He said something like "I wouldnt' want to lynch Thesp because you guys are stupid." It seemed quite obvious to me at that time.

...was a reference to that exact post. When I said "It seemed quite obvious to me at that time," I meant "It seemed quite obvious that Fritz was the cop once he said that" -- that is, at the exact moment when I read Fritz's response to my questions.



I don't see where else I allegedly claimed to have discovered FritzCop. MBL claimed that it happened

during

Part III, but I denied that entirely.

[MrBuddyLee]

Did you catch that the first time you read Fritz's post, or later, during your reread? That's the question we're getting at, because it looks like you've given two different answers.

[Glork]

Did you catch that the first time you read Fritz's post, or later, during your reread? That's the question we're getting at, because it looks like you've given two different answers.

Where have I allegedly given two different answers? I still don't understand what the hell's going on here.

[Patrick]

I understand the answer now. It wasn't crystal clear before, but ok. He claims he saw it first time he read Fritz's post.

[Mgm]

I'm more interested to know when MBL or Patrick caught on.

[Patrick]

See post 1738.