Mini 466 - Game Over

[curiouskarmadog]

ST: It's almost like who can be the scummiest right now Klopy or AmeliaLi?

just throwing this out there for conversation, if both klop and Ameliali are town, what next?

Looking back through I believe we have one town and one mafia in that group you just mentioned. AmeliaLi's silence is deafening right now. Nothing, no defense, no scum ideas, no content, nada. Her lynch in my opinion will be beneficial to the town

if she is guilty, yes. If it turns up she is innocent, does it give us any info? I want to hear what she has to say first, and question anyone who wants to lynch her before.

[ryan]

Are you thinking Klopy is more than just a VI?

[Numenorean7]

MOD: Could we please have a prod on AmeliaLi?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

[klopyrev]

What's VI and what's ly-lo?

[Nanosauromo]

What's VI and what's ly-lo?

VI = Village Idiot. A townie who acts so stupid it's scummy.

Lylo = Lynch or Lose. It means that if we don't lynch scum today, the town loses.

[klopyrev]

Hmm... If there are 5 mafia, that wouldn't be very good! I'm guessing 4 is a better number. Or 3!

[ryan]

MOD: Could we please have a prod on AmeliaLi?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

I can't believe a non themed game would have 5 mafia. I'm guessing more along the lines of 4 or 3 but 5 seems to be WAY too high.

[klopyrev]

lol... That's what I just said

[Numenorean7]

I am sure ST had something reasonable in mind... right?

[Sir Tornado]

MOD: Could we please have a prod on AmeliaLi?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

I did not say we had 5 mafia. I said we had 5 anti-town players, because that is the way I think Klopyrev. and AmeliaLi are acting right now, regardless of whether their roles are antitown or not.

[ryan]

MOD: Could we please have a prod on AmeliaLi?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

I did not say we had 5 mafia. I said we had 5 anti-town players, because that is the way I think Klopyrev. and AmeliaLi are acting right now, regardless of whether their roles are antitown or not.

You do make a good point about their playstyle. Klopy and AmeliaLi (who needs a prod badly) are two that to be honest, either being lynched should show us something. I'm sticking with my vote although Klopy is definetly a strong #2 in my mind

[the_Red_c]

Hmm, Klop and AmeliaLi are 1 and 2 on my list right now. I'm gonna hold off a vote for now and see what they say.

[klopyrev]

What do you want me to say?

[the_Red_c]

Why you aren't mafia and why I shouldn't vote for you.

[klopyrev]

I don't know why you would think I'm mafia in the first place. I know I've done stupid things in this game, but that's because I didn't know better. Give me your reasons why you think I'm scum right now, and I'll try to refute them.

[AmeliaLi]

Okay Hey all. Sorry I havn't been on. I had to get a new computer. My little cousin thought it'd be funny to take a magnet to my labtop. Give me some time and I'll catch up by tonight.

[ryan]

Okay Hey all. Sorry I havn't been on. I had to get a new computer. My little cousin thought it'd be funny to take a magnet to my labtop. Give me some time and

I'll catch up by tonight

.

That would be a good idea, we'll wait till tonight to hear some answers to quite a few questions that have been posed to you

[Numenorean7]

I was going to point you back to some PBPA, but I find there isn't any. I think I will analyze your posts so far and try to explain why you're scummy. Perhaps this will also help codify my own suspicions:
(post # sorting by klop's posts)

#1

vote klopyrev !!! Can I vote for myself?

This is a bad start. I'm not quite sure why, but self-voting is often seen as anti-town. You are pretty much excused from this by the metagame, and your next post provides an explanation: "I'm just bored and random."

#3

Well, considering that its my first game(Well second including the one I'm playing in Road to Rome), this was the first time I actually read any set of rules.

There are rules in newbie games too. Why didn't you read them? In any case, this smacks of the "newbie card", trying to get out of anything you do because you're a newbie. What parts of your behavior are just newbishness and what parts are scummishness is for the town to decide, not you.

#4

I'm just wondering how voting for myself is anti-town? If I'm mafia, why would I want to vote for myself? What would be the benefit of that?

What is the benefit of self-voting for anyone, mafia or townie? I still don't understand the problem with self-voting, but this is a flawed argument. If self-voting looked pro-town, Mafia would immediately do it to look pro-town. This is WIFOM. Besides, you had just aptly demonstrated that things are sometimes done which do not benefit the person who did them.

#5

I still don't understand the explanation of why voting for yourself is scummy. Can someone explain it to me again? Anyway, I have several more questions: What is leading? What is WIFOM? And to contribute to the discussion. Why is it that people who are inactive blaimed? If you are town and are sitting around watching the action, instead of contributing, wouldn't you be able to understand the behaviour of everyone else. In another game I'm playing, I made 2 very stupid posts since the beginning of the game and have been trying to defend myself ever since. If I stayed quite, I could have found out more about other people. Also, how is trying to defend yourself too much a scummy thing? I'm not very experienced, but as a town, I don't want to be lynched in the beginning of the game. That would mean the end of the game for me, since I can't contribute anymore. I would be bored not playing a game. Hmm... anyway, no one has voted for both curiouskarmadog and Lowell, I'll vote for the lexographically least.

vote curiouskarmadog

A single townie death is not as bad for the town as a single Mafia death is for the Mafia. Thus, the Mafia will be more defensive. The Mafia are also trying very hard not to be discovered, so they will be more likely to feel defensive when they think they may be being discovered.
By the way, if you are killed in one game, you can sign up for a new one right away. You don't have to wait for the first one to end.

#7

About the whole unvoting business between ST and AmeliaLi. Has anyone actually noticed that AmeliaLi voted for ST in the first place? If they are both mafia, as some have suggested, that would have been a sneaky move on AmeliaLi's side. Considering its the first move of the game, its just plainly odd and stupid, isn't it? Therefore, AmeliaLi and ST can't both by scum.

First of all, voting for yourself is somewhat odd and stupid, so you're not one to talk.
In this post, you are employing a classic WIFOM argument (perhaps the most classic). Scum will sometimes "random" vote each other to give them some slight distancing without any real danger. Voting each other has no bearing on whether two people are scum together or not. Defending these two people (especially at this point) is a risky thing to do, as it links you to them.

#11

I'll even help you out a bit! I just wondered if I can vote for myself without actually voting in game 403 of The Road to Rome. Satisfied? To continue with the game, I have a question for the more experienced people. How do you keep notes? I keep reading different posts over and over, but there are just too many for me to base my opinion about anything. How do you keep notes? What do you write down and what do you not write down?

Referring to an ongoing game by name is a no-no. You're sounding a bit ruffled and hostile here. Note-keeping questions are newbish in the extreme: there's no correct way to keep notes, you just... keep notes. Not everyone does.

#16

To agree with ryan, AmeliaLi's post was really strange. I've played for very little, but I can still say that that was a very unusual move by AmeliaLi. She could be a town trying to defend herself from all the attacks however. My conclussion is: Who the hell is the mafia? I'm soooooo confused.

This is a weird post. You're agreeing that Amelia's post was strange, but wondering whether it was townie or scummy. This is OK, but the way you do it is weird. It is true that pretty much any move could be interpreted as either townie or scum, but it's customary to say which you think is more likely. Of course you don't

know

who is Mafia, but you must have some idea. There's no need to say, "who the hell is the Mafia? I'm so confused." This post comes across as an attempt to defend AmeliaLi by casting doubt on the town's ability to discern scummy behavior.

#19

With 7 to lynch, I think it'd be safe for me to put my vote on AmeliaLi! She's the most suspicious right now. Sir Tornado hasn't said anything in a while, has he?

Unvote. Vote AmeliaLi

People have been accusing you of playing it too safe, and here's an example. This comes across as scum hoping to not attract attention. Of course, you could be referring to the fact that there's no danger of a scum hammer, but that was fairly obvious. Also, this was a big flip-flop on your part. You had been defending AmeliaLi (#7, possibly #16), and now you vote her with no explanation but that "it would be safe". Putting her at L-3 isn't all that safe, anyway.

#20

Hmm... To answer AmeliaLi's post... I was jumping on the bandwagon with the vote on her. Considering I was going away for 4 days, she was the best place to put my vote and I didn't really want to not vote. Anyway, I'm wondering why everyone is so suspicious of Indy. He's just not here. You all should be focusing on people who are here. I know that it makes sense for a mafia to not say anything to keep suspicion of themselves, but there are several other mafia we could try to find in the meantime. To repeat another post: Townies often act more scummy than actual scum when heavily pressured. I believe that would be AmeliaLi's situation. Also, since when has Sir Tornado been analyzing things. This was the first time I've seen him act as a vigilant townie (though I may be wrong) I currently don't have a concrete opinion on who is scum and who is not. Since my vote is still safe on AmeliaLi(safe meaning she's not at -1), I'm keeping it there.

There is no reason to place your vote on AmeliaLi if you don't think she's scum, especially when she's got a bandwagon. There's no guarantee she won't be put at L-1, or even lynched, while you're gone. This is another very scummy post: defending AmeliaLi while leaving your vote on her bandwagon. If you don't think she's scum, you shouldn't be voting against her, especially if there's a large bandwagon.

#22

Hmm... after not being here for several days, I find AmeliaLi at -1. That's interesting. I still have no opinion what-so-ever, but I feel like I should withdraw my vote not wanting to lynch a townie just trying to defend herself. However, I feel that AmeliaLi is the best candidate right now for scum, so I'm just going to keep it as it is. Wasn't this post completely pointless?

Now, your vote on AmeliaLi is no longer "safe" by your definition. Given your past comments and reasons for voting Amelia, you should unvote her immediately, because you never thought she was scum in the first place. But now you say, "AmeliaLi is the best candidate for scum." This is a major flip-flop. You don't even explain your change, but go from considering her a townie who's panicking under pressure, to the most likely scum. Another very scummy post.

#23

How the hell is that scummy? I'm saying that I'm still not completely convinced that AmeliaLi is scum, but since I don't have a better candidate, I'll keep my vote on her. I know its day one, but everyone is a bit jumpy, mostly ryan. He keeps changing opinions constantly. And people blame AmeliaLi for her contradictions. I'm following, I think, Sir Tornado's argument for AmeliaLi's contradictions and applying it to ryan.

ok... I was just about to change my vote to ryan, but then I actually read his posts and saw that my point is not so obvious reading a second time over. For now:


Unvote
FoS: ryan

Here, you're unvoting at the call of the town. Voting or unvoting just because someone tells you is often a scumtell. In this post, you have completed and reaffirmed your sudden change of heart regarding AmeliaLi. Of course you're not completely convinced she's scum. If you think she is probably scum, you should keep your vote on. If you still actually think she's probably a townie, you should unvote (you should have several posts ago). But instead, you say you think she's probably scum, and unvote in the same post. Unvoting now won't fix it, and the way you did it just made things worse. In addition, you're FoS'ing ryan for no apparent reason. Something about Sir Tornado's argument for AmelaiLi's contradictions. How does this apply to ryan? I am suspicious of anyone who's suspicious of ryan at this point.

#24

I'm sorry I'm undecisive! I'll try to be more decisive when there is something more concrete to go on. I still don't fully believe that AmeliaLi is scum, but she's the best candidate at the moment. I guess I'll never be fully certain that someone is scum in this game.

If she's the best candidate, you shouldn't have unvoted. Still no explanation of why you suddenly think she's likely scum.

#25

I unvoted already. But Wow, the game is over in 3 pages? WTF... I think that it was my fault:( I'll try to be careful next time. I'll try to be more careful in this game too. Anyway, I currently don't know who to vote for, so I'm not going to vote. Also, I believe the_Red_c to be Town, because a Mafia wouldn't quit a game. (Well, at least I wouldn't since I like being mafia more than town) Anyone else have a point of view on this?

Defending Red because he's a replacement is not good logic. Curiouskarmadog did this in another game we are playing together, and it was an important catalyst for an L-1 wagon (incidentally, led by me). There are plenty of reasons Mafia might quit a game: perhaps they feel guilty about deceiving the town, or perhaps something in real life got in the way?

#26

I'm basing my opinion on what I would do, which could be completely wrong.

Acknowledging your flawed reasoning about replacements (more than curiouskarmadog did).

#29

No, I'm not scum. WTF is this? Every time I try to point out something minor, everyone jumps on me and starts saying I'm scum. What kind of game is this? I know it's the first day and everyone wants to lynch a mafia, but you guys are a bit too paranoid. Maybe it's because I'm used to games which are a bit more relaxed (not online), but calm down. What I was trying to say is that I enjoy playing mafia much more than I do playing town. That doesn't mean I'm mafia in this game. I enjoy playing power roles more than playing just normal town. That doesn't mean I'm a power role in this game either. What can I say? Townie is a boring role for me. What I'm also trying to say is if I was playing a game and had to leave, I would think twice about leaving if I was a mafia. Using that logic, the_Red_c is possibly town, because he's a replacement for someone who left.

The way you play online is very different from the way you play in person. Live Mafia is based much more on gut. In MS.net Mafia, there's a lot of material which anyone can look over, sort, and analyze at will. Everyone is also a lot more careful of what they type here than of what they would say in person. Scumtells are different, perhaps more subtle, but easier to identify and build up a case with. The rules are the same, but the play is very different.

#34

I don't know why you would think I'm mafia in the first place. I know I've done stupid things in this game, but that's because I didn't know better. Give me your reasons why you think I'm scum right now, and I'll try to refute them.

This post is actually sounding a bit pro-town to me, acknowledging your mistakes, etc. Of course, scum can say anything town can say...

I believe the biggest point against you is your behavior regarding AmeliaLi. Why did you defend her in #7, vote her in #19, defend her yet keep your vote on in #20, and call her most likely scum from #22 onward?

[Sir Tornado]

While Amelia and Klop consider the questions there have been asked, I'll go after another person I think might be scummy:

Nanosauromo

.

Here are his last five posts, starting from the earliest.

What's VI and what's ly-lo?

VI = Village Idiot. A townie who acts so stupid it's scummy.

Lylo = Lynch or Lose. It means that if we don't lynch scum today, the town loses.

After page 7 AmeliaLi has been pretty quiet as well as not answering a few questions posed to her

Perhaps she's adopted the "Don't move! It can't see you if you don't move!" mentality.

Looking back on his posts, Klopyrev seems more stupid than scummy.

a repeat of his 154

Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"

I haven't posted much because I don't have much to post. Do you want me to start making stuff up?

Uh... I'm still here.

Should we expect a content post from you tonight than?

Nano's Thoughts:

AmeliaLi's "Lynch all Lurkers" strategy is a horrible Idea. Thus, my vote is on her.

The rest of the game seems like just noise.

Exactly what has Nanosauromo said? Notice, that he doesn't actually lurk. But, he doesn't really post anything substantial at all. This is how the scum behave. They try not to lurk, because then they would be put under pressure. However, at the same time, he doesn't say anything at all, so that he would be safe when we get to the later days and start rereading.

Sorry, doesn't fly with me. So, I am going to ask Nanosauromo to tell everyone what he thinks about each player right now.

[Sir Tornado]

Dammit!

Sorry, about the "quote" tag. Please consider my last post WITHOUT the outer "quote" tags please.

[AmeliaLi]

Questions I want answered by AmeliaLi failing which FOS would turn into a vote:

1) In Post 44 you unvoted along with me. In it's explanation, you stated in Post 90 that your unvote was "coincidence". However, you say in the same post, that you unvoted after seeing me unvote. Now...

Coincidence = We just happened to be unvoting at the same time

Unvoting after seeing me unvote and thinking "

That's a good idea

" = Trying to follow me.

Two totally different things. What exactly were you doing?

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say

it is highly suspicious

.

Why the sudden change of heart in the space of 5 posts and 212 minutes?

3. In Post 135 you say "

Let's lynch them

(lurkers)". Yet, quite soon, on being questioned by Ryan you change your position and say "

I was joking when I said lynch them

"?

This really doesn't make any sense at all to me. Sorry. I hope you can tell me how to make sense of it all.

1) I saw you unvote and I’d rather not leave a random vote. Your unvote triggered mine.
2) I wasn’t changing my heart, I was merely stating the different reasons why he might do such a thing.
3) I knew that I would never be able to get everyone together on the same boat to lynch the lukers. It was more trying to get people out to have more content.

Hmm... after not being here for several days, I find AmeliaLi at -1. That's interesting. I still have no opinion what-so-ever, but I feel like I should withdraw my vote not wanting to lynch a townie just trying to defend herself. However, I feel that AmeliaLi is the best candidate right now for scum, so I'm just going to keep it as it is. Wasn't this post completely pointless?

And the question is, when I turn out to be a scapegoat for all the scum out there, then what happens? The scum has their way and have effectively wrapped the town around their finger.

FOS Klop

I'm sorry I'm undecisive! I'll try to be more decisive when there is something more concrete to go on.

I still don't fully believe that AmeliaLi is scum, but she's the best candidate at the moment.

I guess I'll never be fully certain that someone is scum in this game.

You just keep saying that without any reasoning. Give us a well thought out reason on all of your posts. Don’t just throw something that has been bandwagoned to death, and give us something new.

And that’s my wall of words. (For now)

[curiouskarmadog]

And the question is, when I turn out to be a scapegoat for all the scum out there, then what happens? The scum has their way and have effectively wrapped the town around their finger.

FOS Klop

so, Klop is the Mafia master mind who has everyone wrapped around his (or her?) finger?...wow, what a masterful job he is doing.

[curiouskarmadog]

Personally I think the majority of the mafia are lurking or near lurking. With all of the VIs running around they do not have to do much work to get an easy lynch. Lets stir the Day 1 pot a see what comes to the surface. We have not heard from Jester since he FoSed me and asked the Mod to prod (5 days ago)…..I think you need to be prodded now.

Vote Jester

Any comment on the current situations or topics of conversation?

[AmeliaLi]

And the question is, when I turn out to be a scapegoat for all the scum out there, then what happens? The scum has their way and have effectively wrapped the town around their finger.

FOS Klop

so, Klop is the Mafia master mind who has everyone wrapped around his (or her?) finger?...wow, what a masterful job he is doing.

No I don't think he himself is the master mind but if he is scum, I'm sure he's doing a lot that is pissing off the other scum.

I FOSed him and used the quote below to explian my FOS... I was done talking about the scum in that peirod after the word

finger

.

[Nanosauromo]

Exactly what has Nanosauromo said? Notice, that he doesn't actually lurk. But, he doesn't really post anything substantial at all. This is how the scum behave. They try not to lurk, because then they would be put under pressure. However, at the same time, he doesn't say anything at all, so that he would be safe when we get to the later days and start rereading.

That's because by the time I form an opinion about someone, someone else has already posted a "Why [playername] Is Scummy" analysis, so all I can do is agree with what's already been stated.

Sorry, doesn't fly with me. So, I am going to ask Nanosauromo to tell everyone what he thinks about each player right now.

I think that either AmeliaLi or Klopyrev is scum. I'm starting to lean towards Klopyrev for the reasons stated by Numenorian7 in post 317, but I still have a feeling that he's beeing more newbish than scummish.

As for the rest of you, you all look like town so far.