Mini 458 - Game over!

[Adel]

Yeah, I did, he was/is scummier then hell, he still hasn't responded about all the massive inconsistencies that are "glaringly obvious". He does play like this as town, or anti-town, so playstyle now becomes a null-tell.

I'm not going to take you at your word on this. Exactly

where

have you seem him play like this as scum?

[pickemgenius]

Yeah, I did, he was/is scummier then hell, he still hasn't responded about all the massive inconsistencies that are "glaringly obvious". He does play like this as town, or anti-town, so playstyle now becomes a null-tell.

I'm not going to take you at your word on this. Exactly

where

have you seem him play like this as scum?

Open 23, just got finished, he was a werewolf.

[pickemgenius]

P.S you were in that game.

[Adel]

thanks. I stopped watching that game when I was NK'd night 1 by both scumgroups. I'll go take a look.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Adel turns up scum, something went very wrong here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

CKD, do you have anything to say about my defense?

[NabakovNabakov]

@Adel: No matter what role I'm playing, I always re-read my posts and ask myself "does this look scummy?" (because it's never a good idea to look scummy) When I re-read the post in question, I realized that the "all 3 scum" might give me trouble, but using the word "all" solidified my argument, and I always thought the "OMG, your saying u know how many scums their r!!!" argument was kinda silly. It was not a slip-up, just a bit of semantics. If it makes you feel any better, I'm sorry.

Additionally, your argument against Pickem as I see it is that he got stuck with Dylan as a crappy scum partner, and that's why he was on Dylan's bandwagon. That seems pretty tin-hat to begin with, and when you realize that MoS's essential argument against Pickem is that he tried to bus Dylan without actually bussing Dylan, it all falls apart (because, if I was going to take down an annoying scum partner, I would do it with flying colors to build trust with the town). This isn't saying that Pickem isn't scum, but you're reading too much into things.

[Kate]

I don't think NabNab saying "all 3 scum" is a scumtell, I've actually never played a mini normal game online, so as soon as curious said 3 scum, i immediately thought there were 3 scum in this game -just me not thinking- but anyway, to me that was just a stupid mistake, nothing to worry about.

Open 23, just got finished, he was a werewolf.

So why did we decide to let dylan of the hook?

[Adel]

NabNab- all the same, it is a scumtell. I'm not FoSing you, I'm not voting for you, I just pointed out that you said something scummy. It is pretty much in isolation, and you did offer a reasonable explanation.. it is also a scumtell I look for.

I don't think I was reading too much into things, I was just trying to build a case against pickem. MoS is convinced that pickem is scum, but I am not convinced by the evidence he has brought up so I went looking for other evidence. I still may find it- I am not done looking yet.

Looking at the Open 23 Monks and Masons game, dylan wasn't the VI, he was a near-lurker. 15 posts in 8 pages to win the game! He didn't say anything scummy under my quick read.

J-man was also a townie in that game- and I drove the bandwagon that lynched him day 1. Not my proudest moment.

pickem: what about Open 23 do you think proves that dylan is the VI when he plays as scum?

[pickemgenius]

HERE ARE HIS OPEN 23 POSTS.

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:46 pm

vote: OJ.

With that name, he must be guilty!

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:53 pm

This is turning out to be a very interesting vote! I could switch my vote to Adel, but I need some convincing.

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:39 am

unvote
vote: now a ranger

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:40 am

sorry, but looking back at your posts I think you gave yourself away

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:13 pm

unvote: NAR

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:27 pm

i might revote for NAR, but I'm still not sure

Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:29 am

yes I lost confidence. why are you mad at me?

Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:16 am

vote: J-man

Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:04 am

i'm easily convinced by other people's arguments.

Don't draw the suspicion towards me if others are also voting for the same person. They;re just as guilty of voting so don't make me feel so guilty.

Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:50 pm

beanbagboy has been flying under the radar a little too much for me... I'd like to hear more from him, because right now he looks like scum.

DAY 2

Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:42 pm

I could have guessed that Adel would be killed next by the evils of the town, but wow - he had no chance.

I'm going to be gone all of next week and I don't know how much I'll be able to post.

I'm highly suspicious of Sir Tornado and Stewie though...

Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:59 pm

Hey all,
I'm going to

vote: Stewie

more explanations to come next week

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:44 pm

I don't get why there are three people not voting.

are they trying to play it safe or what?

Oj - if you are a monk or mason you should have said it.

unvote
vote: ojpower

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:55 pm

Vote: LSU Tiger Josh

sweeny - the wolves won't kill you overnight. I've been protecting you all game.

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:54 am

pleeeeeeeeeease Sweenytodd. you still have a chance to go far in this game

Look at my Post 9 with Newest first, and compare.
Not sure how his Day 2 town behavior *would* be, I will look to see if there is a finished game where he has made it to Day 2 as town, and further compare.

He wasn't ever really pressured in Open 23 though, I do note that.

[NabakovNabakov]

Ok, I read the Masons/Monks game to see what Dylan's like as scum (and what Adel and J-Man are like as town). Despite being fast, violent, and stupid (the intelligent players seemed to be the first to go), it was pretty informative meta-game wise.

Dylan was very very obviously scum in that game, and you could clarly see his goals. I haven't seen any specific goals that Dylan is going after, and he isn't hoping on to bandwagons as blantantly here as he was there. Adel and J-Man were pretty much the same (Pretty good analysis and generally cautious play occasionally overturned when she's pissed for the former and an inscrutable wall 'o words for the latter).

[pickemgenius]

I haven't seen any specific goals that Dylan is going after, and he isn't hoping on to bandwagons as blantantly here as he was there.

I believe there have been 3 bandwagons:

His
J-Man
CKD

He was on both J-man, and CKD, both votes provided

without

reasoning, and put CKD at L-1 as quietly as possible.

[Adel]

unvote: carrotcake

vote: J-man

for seeming over-zealous to get to night time (maybe so he can kill me?)

Which was the 4th vote on J-man, and was his first post after being prodded.

unvote
vote: curiouskarmadog

Which put ckd at -1

I'm sold.

vote:dylan

metagaming rocks.

[NabakovNabakov]

Serves me right for not bothering to read

both

games before posting my thoughts. In my defense, there was a lot less clutter in that game. I don't always have the energy to read through 500 posts.

Dylan doesn't just appear stupid now, he appears scummy, though it would still be nice to see an example of his behavior as town.

FOS: Dylan

for now.

[Adel]

Newbie #387 townie VI lynched day 1. The game is still active, but take a look. 22 posts before day 1 ended, in less than 8 pages.

Mini 454 Candy Mafia Is also active, he was also the VI lynched day 1, was also town, but didn't post very much. 6 posts in 10 pages.

In this game he has 22 posts in 22 pages.

So his post activity doesn't correlate with whether or not he is scum. I don't know if I can comment of bandwagon activity in active games so I won't.

unvote: dylan

I am sucking today. I amost feel like I shouldn't have logged on

[Kate]

Ok, I read the Masons/Monks game to see what Dylan's like as scum (and what Adel and J-Man are like as town). Despite being fast, violent, and stupid (the intelligent players seemed to be the first to go), it was pretty informative meta-game wise.

Dylan was very very obviously scum in that game, and you could clarly see his goals.

I haven't seen any specific goals that Dylan is going after, and he isn't hoping on to bandwagons as blantantly here as he was there.

Adel and J-Man were pretty much the same (Pretty good analysis and generally cautious play occasionally overturned when she's pissed for the former and an inscrutable wall 'o words for the latter).

He was on the only 2 bandwagons he could've been on (the other one was himself), and you also said it was fast and stupid, and the intelligent players were the first to go, so he could be pretty obvious in that game without being noticed, right?

So 22posts/8pages and 6posts/10pages...townie in both, so pretty much we still have no clue about dylan. I think he's been no help to the game, and honestly wouldn't mind lynching him, but that would just help the scum's odds if he is town...

Unvote

for now, I don't think curious is so scummy anymore.

[Adel]

I'm feeling a little stuck. Now I don't think curious is scummy enough to lynch, nor pickem, nor dylan, nor crub. The odds are decent that we have scum in that group, but that doesn't mean that there has to be. On the other hand, wagons on players outside that group are increasingly likely to force a powerrole to claim, and that is bad. Additionally I don't know who I'd like to examine next. Num7 or NabNab or molestargazer.

If there was a player who had been on all four wagons, I would vote for her. The problem is, I am the only person who has been on all four wagons.

ThAdmiral: You are still convinced about dylan, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

MosS: You are still convinced about pickem, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral

I have been saying that ThAdmiral is pro-town, but I'm starting to wonder, particularly because of the early no-lynch wagon:

carrotcake random-votes no-lynch (36)
tromboner agrees, votes no-lynch (39)
kate agrees, unvotes (40)
ThAdmiral agrees, votes no-lynch (47)

Just for this,

FoS ThAdmiral

. No-lynch is a bad idea, and putting on the 3rd vote is really suspicious. I've already mentioned this in conjunction with carrotcake/N-N, tromboner/ckd, and Kate, but ThAdmiral is perhaps the most culpable. I'd like an explanation of post 47. I've previously mentioned his lack of content. He often says over again what has already been said. He posts infrequently, and never says much when he does. I believe he may be lurking in plain sight. I'm keeping a closer eye on ThAdmiral from now on.

Ha! I can see how you got confused but I actually voted: NOT no lynch (go have another look). I probably should have made that a bit more clear.

Saying that Mike is scum with Vinny isn't at all the same thing as saying that there are two and only two scum. ckd's theory never left out the possibility of there being a forth- I was watching for it. Your statement that there are 3 scum seems to infer that somehow you

know

that there are exactly three scum.

It is definitely a scumtell.

I disagree. He was referencing ckd's three scum, and also for a game of this size it's normal to expect a scum group of three people. I think 4 would make it a bit ridiculous for the mafia (mislynch day one and it's lylo), and 2 would make it ridiculously hard.

ThAdmiral: You are still convinced about dylan, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

I'll put together my case and get back to you.
To summarize it's basically his lurking and bandwagon jumping, but I'll do a post-by-post.

[Adel]

I see your point about the scum group. I thought 3 with 1 godfather or four with heavy powerroles were two equally possible scenarios. I didn't realize that lylo would come that quick.

While you are generating your case against dylan, please take a look at the three games we cited above. I think they establish that his actions are consistent regardless of his alignment.

[NabakovNabakov]

[joke]
You know, I actually thought this game was all vanilla vs. 3 scum+GF AND an SK.

(Though having a GF wouldn't matter because there would be no cop to investigate him)

Oh, and werewolves, maybe 2 or 3.

Wait, better make the townies death millers too, with posting restrictions.

[/joke]

(Just kiddin' with you Adel)

[Adel]

This just isn't my day. Goodnight.

[Crub]

I really don't think that dylan is scum. I think he's misguided in thinking that lurking and coming by once in a while to cast a vote is a pro-town thing to do. Dylan seriously if you don't think you can add anything to the game except for a vote on a bandwagon then you should seek a replacement.

Having said that

vote pickem

. I agree with MoS as to why pickem is scum. He was inconsistent when it came to the J-Man lynch.

Also CKD, you're "adamant" that I'm scum, I don't know what I can do to convince you otherwise because it seems as if your mind is made up. Can I just ask you

again

. If I'm lynched and turn out to be town, who do you think is scum? Like you I'm happy to be lynched even though I'm a townie as long as we can get enough information from my lynch to lynch a scum tomorrow. What I don't want is to be lynched and then you to go "oh shii ... he was town there go's my theory".

Also

FoS ThAdmiral

. I think your voting on J-Man was also suspicious. Firstly ThAdmiral was very insistent that J-Man come out and claim his power role, and even starts to fish for a doc/cop roleclaim.

He should see by now that if he is a power role he should just claim.

Oh I see. Well his language now indicates to me that he is a power role, or at least that he is implying that he is.
If he is a doc that can't protect himself then that will be extremely unlucky for everyone (except the mafia), although I don't see why a doc would have been so eager to get to night.
If he is a power role I'm thinking he will be cop, as when I've been cop I can't wait to get to night to investigate someone. If he is then I don't see that as being detrimental to the town: I've seen many games where an early cop claim has lead the town to victory.

He even suggests that J-Man is cop, or "clever" scum but still comes to the conclusion that J-Man is the play for today! (I don't think anyone will agree that J-Man played a clever game no matter what my role)

@ everyone else: I still think he's the best play, but since there's no deadline there's no harm in discussing his claim post before further action. It isn't entirely without a ring of truth.

I see what you mean here. I think I wrote something like his post when I was starting out, feeling helpless in the face of a first day lynch. Although I've seen clever scum do similar things as well, I don't think a clever scum would have tried to rush a quick lynch in so early in a game.

If he is scum, then well done sir for putting so much doubt in my mind.
That being said I'm not quite ready to unvote just yet.

When MoS called him out on this reasoning he quickly unvotes, and then go's into his shell.

Alright, settle down. Firstly I didn't think that he was in so much danger that an unvote was necessary, especially since you had just unvoted. I was actually interested in seeing if anyone else, say an anxious scum, wanted to jump on and put him back to -1 to try to push through a lynch. However, since I've now revealed my plan I might as well...

Unvote

I guess I also stayed on because I thought that even if he is town he's been playing badly, and I guess I just didn't feel like letting him off the hook so easily. Not a pro-town sentiment, perhaps, but it's how I felt. So, whatever.

Since then he has contributed hardly anything except for pushing the bandwagon at the time (both dylan's and ckd - although he didn't vote for ckd).

[pickemgenius]

Having said that

vote pickem

. I agree with MoS as to why pickem is scum. He was inconsistent when it came to the J-Man lynch.

Care to come up with your own reason, and even that reason is pretty weak, atleast give us something new for us to discuss.

[Crub]

Having said that

vote pickem

. I agree with MoS as to why pickem is scum. He was inconsistent when it came to the J-Man lynch.

Care to come up with your own reason, and even that reason is pretty weak, atleast give us something new for us to discuss.

No wonder no one has been lynched if everyone who votes has to supply a different reason.

Anyway your actions during the J-Man bandwagon seemed scummy to me. From the start you directed suspicion at J-Man while being very hands off, it's like you didn't want to be involved with the lynching of an innocent townie.

First you convinced dylan to start the bandwagon :

You're right in the fact that J-man has been somewhat vocal about your lynch.
Thats a fair point.
A bandwagon doesn't start out of thin air.
If people agree with you, then they might vote for him.

Then you agree that we should be putting pressure on J-Man to get information yet you don't vote for him:

While however unsmart it may be for J-man to be at L-2 relatively early, it's not a bad thing really, it's building pressure and is giving him a chance to defend himself, so we can have a logical decision on wheter or not he is or is not scum.

We see how he reacts to X(5) amount of votes being placed on him.

Yeah if he defends himself, we can tell if it is good or not, and make more progress from there.

I don't know/see many townies offering themselves to be killed, it's not really smart, but that's just me.

And then as MoS already pointed out you laid out why you thought J-Man was scum and yet still didn't vote.

My vibe-o-meter™ just went from wishy washy to more likely scum. I'm not really happy with his last few posts.

Adel wrote:
why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?


I felt that you only answered latter two.
Town members NEED to defend themselves always.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's almost like deja-vu, with a different person.


I do agree that we need everyone to comment on J-man, so that we don't come to a hasty conclusion.

I hope that meets your requirements for a reason?

[Crub]

EBWOP:
First you convinced

tromboner

to start the bandwagon :