[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[yellowbounder]

2 docs target the same person: they turn into one quack.
2 cops protect the same person: they both get wrong results.
1 doc and 1 cop target same person: no results are returned, but that player becomes a death miller.

That's even more chaotic, but it'd be crazy cool fun to play.

This is practically the closest you can get to bastard moddery in an Open Game.

And now, something new:

Backstabbing Backstabbers Mafia

3 Mafia Goons (one of whom is randomly the godfather, no special powers)
1 Mafia Ursurper (no special powers)
1 Doc
7 Townies

The mafia can talk at night as normal, and the godfather sends in the kill.
The godfather is no different from any other goon, except he can only win if he is alive. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned survivor). The Ursurper can only win when the godfather is dead. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned lyncher).
The mafia do not know who the ursurper is, but know who the godfather is.

The key is here, is that the goons don't care about the ursurper's struggles, they just want to win. The godfather can send in the kill to be one of his goons, if he thinks he knows who the ursurper is, but he doesn't have to kill him, it's only the ursurper who requires the godfather's death.

A bit of a verbose explanation, I admit. And ursurper, and godfather role is revealed upon death.

Thoughts?

And I see nothing wrong with a

Nominate: Crush A

[Kelly Chen]

I had some trouble following the last sentence of the explanation. Why would it happen that

The godfather can send in the kill to be one of his goons

?

[The Fonz]

Because one of his goons is the usurper, though he doesn't know which.

That actually seems quite a promising setup.

[Kelly Chen]

Wow. That would explain it but it's hardly clear from the description that the usurper behaves like a goon.

I dunno about this. There are four mafia in a game of 12 with just a doc on the town side. Mafia can get the numbers to win pretty quickly; normally D2 would be lylo. So the usurper is in an incredible rush to get the godfather lynched. He would probably be pretty obvious about it because there is basically no other way for him to win.

I predict the godfather is lynched before he has a chance to kill the usurper (who would probably be easy to identify), then the usurper is lynched by the town, and the two goons are hoped to go on to win.

[yellowbounder]

So nominate it...

Nice weather.

[Thesp]

SK Mafia

3 SKs
2 Mafia
0-1-2 Doc
5-7 Townies

The SKs don't know who each other are, but collectively they have one kill per night. If a majority of them agree on who to kill, then that person will die, otherwise, a random target is picked from the three chosen by them.

If you don't agree that this is awesome, then you fail.

Randomness has no place in a nightchoice, especially in an Open Game. Also, the town looks really screwed on this one, I don't think they have enough control in this game.

Nanodethy Mafia

6 Cops (2 sane, 3 paranoid/naive, 1 insane)
3 Millers
1 One-shot NK Vig
4 Scum

Paranoid/Naive cop sanity chosen randomly.

Why the vig? Vigs for no reason are bad.

Here's the probable framework for a 12-player setup:

1 mafia recruiter
4 protown power roles, of various types
7 vanilla townies

Recruiter recruits two players during night 0, and cannot recruit thereafter. No other actions are taken night 0. If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either Mafia Power Role X or Mafia Power Role Y, with a 50-50 chance for each. (If both recruits are vanilla, then one will become X and one will become Y.) That's it.

I like your idea, and think it could run well as a game. However, I'm concerned about how this game could turn into, "Who did the mafia recruit? Who are the good players in this game? Let's lynch them!" I'd be intrigued to see how such a game ran, but I suspect this may end up being central, which is sort of a shame. (C9 is actually a "recruiting" done before the game - a cop or doc might get denied to the town, and it's done randomly.)

Nominate Yogurt
3 Mafia that cant talk
2 masons that Can
1 RB
6 Vanilla

Making mafia unable to talk is unnecessary, and I don't know why it's thought of as a good idea.

Crush Nightless 6p

1 mafia godfather (vengeful-style)
1 mafia goon
1 lyncher (who is informed of his target)
3 townies (one of whom is unknowingly the lyncher's target)
Nightless.

If the target is lynched, the game is over and the lyncher wins.
If the godfather is lynched, the goon dies with him.
Death of all mafia isn't game over; town still tries to lynch the lyncher.
But a final 2 situation of lyncher+target is a town win.

I really, really like this. It seems like most people would rather see CrushA, though, so that will run.

Backstabbing Backstabbers Mafia

3 Mafia Goons (one of whom is randomly the godfather, no special powers)
1 Mafia Ursurper (no special powers)
1 Doc
7 Townies

The mafia can talk at night as normal, and the godfather sends in the kill.
The godfather is no different from any other goon, except he can only win if he is alive. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned survivor). The Ursurper can only win when the godfather is dead. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned lyncher).
The mafia do not know who the ursurper is, but know who the godfather is.

The key is here, is that the goons don't care about the ursurper's struggles, they just want to win. The godfather can send in the kill to be one of his goons, if he thinks he knows who the ursurper is, but he doesn't have to kill him, it's only the ursurper who requires the godfather's death.

Let me get this straight - you have two teams with mutually exclusive win conditions (mafia and town). Within the subset of {Mafia}, you have 2 players whose win condition is outright

harder

than the win condition of the other two. Sort of a punishment for being one of those mafia as opposed to being a regular mafia? I don't like it. (I'm nearly categorically opposed to anyone whose win condition is harder to fulfill than other members of their own team - it's an arbitrary punishment, not a fun role.)


I've seen a lot of compex setups run by, several of which have been put through to the queue and run fine. I'd like to scale back the complexity, though, and return to some more elegant games - give me some I can put in signups that can be explained in one line.

(

For example, compare:

Jester Mafia

(Open 25)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 1 Jester, 7 Townies (0/10) - Mod: Romanus[/u]

...with...

Crush Mafia (Open 33) - 1 Mafia GF, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Lyncher, 4 Townies (1 of whom is Lynchee), DayStart* (0/7)

(* - If Mafia Godfather is killed, Goon dies as well.
If Lynchee is nightkilled, Lyncher becomes Townie.
Lyncher wins iff Lyncher is alive and Lynchee is lynched.
Mafia wins iff Lyncher has not fulfilled win condition and living mafia comprise half of the players in the game, or nothing can prevent same.
Townies win iff all the Mafia have been killed.)

We're looking for more that have the brevity of the first.)

If you're looking for something to do, I have a Wiki project I'd like to start on, but haven't gotten to yet. There are a number of Open Games that have run, that don't have wiki pages, see below. I'm also wanting to create a Category called "Open Game Setups", and tag any setup used as an Open Game with this category, so there's an easy way for people to see what's been run, in case they want to see it again. Here are the setups that haven't been Wikified:
Cop C9
Switch
Masons and Monks
Double Cop C9
Near-Vanilla
Strawberry
Roleblocker C9
Bird C9
Fire and Ice
Game threads for these games (to help figure out what they are) can be found here. If no one else can get around to it, I'll do it at some point, but if someone has free time to kill...

[Kelly Chen]

Jester has a similar ambiguity to the lyncher I think... You need to know whether a win by them is exclusive.

Let's say it's obvious that a win by them is exclusive. Maybe we could also say it's part of the definition of a lyncher, that an NKed target means the lyncher becomes a townie (if still alive). Also that the target is a townie who doesn't know he's the target, and isn't revealed as such.

This is reaching a bit, but say we take it as obvious that if the game ends before the lyncher has fulfilled his win condition (and the target is still alive of course), he loses.

We could also expect the reader to know what a "Vengeful-style godfather" is.

Then you could describe Crush A as:

1 Vengeful-style godfather, 1 goon, 1 lyncher, 4 townies
Day start
If both mafia are dead, the game ends and the town wins.

[Thesp]

Jester has a similar ambiguity to the lyncher I think... You need to know whether a win by them is exclusive.

Let's say it's obvious that a win by them is exclusive. Maybe we could also say it's part of the definition of a lyncher, that an NKed target means the lyncher becomes a townie (if still alive). Also that the target is a townie who doesn't know he's the target, and isn't revealed as such.

This is reaching a bit, but say we take it as obvious that if the game ends before the lyncher has fulfilled his win condition (and the target is still alive of course), he loses.

We could also expect the reader to know what a "Vengeful-style godfather" is.

Then you could describe Crush A as:

1 Vengeful-style godfather, 1 goon, 1 lyncher, 4 townies
Day start
If both mafia are dead, the game ends and the town wins.

True, though it's not clear as you've shown it that the lynchee is among the townies (which is easy enough to fix). It will also help when Crush Mafia gets wikified - Jester Mafia's wiki page helps eliminate any confusion as well, and with brevity.

[Kelly Chen]

I thought it was clear by saying "the target is a townie" and not listing the target as a separate role.

I did wikify Crush A incidentally.

The Jester Mafia wiki entry also expects the reader to deduce that lynching the jester ends the game. It's the only sensible conclusion, but it isn't stated plainly.

[Thesp]

I thought it was clear by saying "the target is a townie" and not listing the target as a separate role.

I did wikify Crush A incidentally.

The Jester Mafia wiki entry also expects the reader to deduce that lynching the jester ends the game. It's the only sensible conclusion, but it isn't stated plainly.

Thanks for the wikification!

[Mr. Flay]

Thesp, I made you a wiki sysop in case you ever need to 'freeze' a setup, delete a bad idea, make one 'official', or whatever...

[yellowbounder]

Hide and Seek Mafia

3 Mafia
6 Hiders (die if hide behind mafia, die if target is NKed)
2 Trackers

Very simple.

(And for those who don't know what a Hider is, a Hider picks a person to hide behind, and dies if that person is targeted, rather if they personally are targeted.)

This sort of reminds me of Texas, since if everyone was trigger happy, it could end the game very fast.

[SpinWizard]

I think we need 1 with 2 town factions and 2 mafia factions. I will draw 1 up soon

[yellowbounder]

Miller Miller on the Wall Mafia

1 Godfather (appears innocent)
3 Goons (appears guilty)
7 Millers (knows is miller, appears guilty)
1 Townie (knows is townie, innocent)
2 Cops (always sane, innocent)

Assuming no deaths, an innocent result will be scum 33% of the time, while a guilty result would be scum 33% of the time. So, it's less about the results, but what you do with them. The Cop isn't the be all end all, but he's not rendered useless either.

At least I think so.

[Shanba]

Interesting. Depending on who dies, an innocent or a guilty result might become more useful. Also, it might be a valid strategy for the scum to claim cop, knowing that the cops out there don't know who the other one is and therefore assume that the claimant is. I like that setup.

[yellowbounder]

The wind whispers something about setup nomination.

[Kelly Chen]

Since the cops are probably outed pretty early, and upon claiming the townie is confirmed, I'd say an innocent result on the GF is pretty damning.

Scum claiming cop would be desperate. The GF might be forced to try if discovered. But you'd have to claim cop early in the game to be believed, that I don't think that tactic would really be useful...

That is basically the same setup as this:
3 godfathers
1 goon
2 sane miller cops
1 miller

barber (the term I use for a confirmed role that does nothing)

(edit: no need to name a miller)
7 townies

[yellowbounder]

Yes, yes it is the same setup.

Has it been made before?

[Kelly Chen]

It hasn't been done before, but I think wording it this way makes it look unbalanced. Four scum in a 14p game and three power roles that are mostly not functional. The cops mostly detect power roles (not helpful and probably not informative), except for one (the same) baddie.

[yellowbounder]

What if you introduced an additional super cop, that actually got alignment results, independant of godfather/miller modications, but didn't know that he was special? So supersanity if you will?

[inHimshallibe]

Throwing this idea onto the table:

3 or 4 Mafia
0 or 1 SK who cannot be roleblocked (subject to change, pending on your thoughts)
1 or 2 Roleblockers (maybe 0-2?)
6 or 7 Townies (maybe 6-8?)

4 evil, 8 good

I like seeing how roleblockers use their information, but maybe it needs more.

[Aimee]

Throwing this idea onto the table:

3 or 4 Mafia
0 or 1 SK who cannot be roleblocked (subject to change, pending on your thoughts)
1 or 2 Roleblockers (maybe 0-2?)
6 or 7 Townies (maybe 6-8?)

4 evil, 8 good

I like seeing how roleblockers use their information, but maybe it needs more.

Gut feeling that it could be slightly unbalanced in favor of anti-town...

[Aimee]

Miller Miller on the Wall Mafia

1 Godfather (appears innocent)
3 Goons (appears guilty)
7 Millers (knows is miller, appears guilty)
1 Townie (knows is townie, innocent)
2 Cops (always sane, innocent)

Assuming no deaths, an innocent result will be scum 33% of the time, while a guilty result would be scum 33% of the time. So, it's less about the results, but what you do with them. The Cop isn't the be all end all, but he's not rendered useless either.

At least I think so.

I think this would be more effective if the Millers thought they were townies.

[yellowbounder]

Miller Miller on the Wall Mafia

1 Godfather (appears innocent)
3 Goons (appears guilty)
7 Millers (knows is miller, appears guilty)
1 Townie (knows is townie, innocent)
2 Cops (always sane, innocent)

Assuming no deaths, an innocent result will be scum 33% of the time, while a guilty result would be scum 33% of the time. So, it's less about the results, but what you do with them. The Cop isn't the be all end all, but he's not rendered useless either.

At least I think so.

I think this would be more effective if the Millers thought they were townies.

Kind of ruins the point of the townie role.

[yellowbounder]

I've seen a lot of compex setups run by, several of which have been put through to the queue and run fine. I'd like to scale back the complexity, though, and return to some more elegant games - give me some I can put in signups that can be explained in one line.

I think this is just because your fingers are sore from too much coping and pasting!

Glue and rubber, unite!