Mafia v. Wolves Redux: Finally Over!

[Akbar]

PBuG, your the absolute last person I would expect to make that statement. Did you forget about Night 2/Day 3?

[TBuG]

PBuG, your the absolute last person I would expect to make that statement. Did you forget about Night 2/Day 3?

How would that make me not say that?

[Akbar]

@Any town we have left still interested in playing this game.

PBuG is currently the only individual that I trust. He's the reason I'm still alive.

On day 1 I voiced suspicions of voting patterns between Kison and PBuG. I even voted PBuG. Later that night I received a delivery. It was the Hefty Rune of Hardiness. I never experienced items before, so I didn't use it.

The next day, PBuG signaled me about the delivery. He started saying something like everyone should be Hardy, and use our Hefty Swords of Justice to fight evil, or something to that effect. Anyone of our original players could have caught this if they were paying attention. The replacements won't find this because shortly after he posted it, the server outage hit. The outage washed away several posts, including PBuG's song.

After the signal, I dropped my suspicion of PBuG and didn't speak of it again. Since half of my suspicion of Kison was the possible connection, I figured I didn't have much on him either. At the time, the outage seemed like a good way to hide a power role. But, in retrospect with all the replacements, it seems a bit unfair that they can't access that info.

On Day 2 I voiced suspicions of several players. Among those, a heated argument against BM and MoS. I figured I pissed off enough people that I could be whacked by one of the scum. So I used the Rune in hopes it would protect me.

Sure enough, I got attacked. Unfortunately it was by our Vigilante. I illustrated the details of the attack for anyone to reference. The key point being attacked at home. I have no night action.

Not only did N9V verify the witch flying by, or at least something flying by. Shanba also verified the attack.

So The Fonz can try to twist our argument around all he wants. But, he can't twist the testimonies of a Vigilante, A Claimed Cop, and a Runesmith or whatever the role is.

[Kison]

That makes me like you more, Akbar, but I think that your explaining that wasn't a very wise move. If what you're saying is true, then you put PBuG at risk.

[Fuldu]

I see nothing in that argument to suggest that anyone other than PBuG is more likely to be pro-town, Akbar. Your whole argument boils down to "A pro-town player sent me something useful, so I must be pro-town" which doesn't logically follow at all. PBuG is well within his rights to now believe that he made a mistake sending it to you, which, based on his comment, he apparently suspects he might have.

[The Fonz]

[quote="Akbar]

Sure enough, I got attacked. Unfortunately it was by our Vigilante. I illustrated the details of the attack for anyone to reference. The key point being attacked at home. I have no night action.[/quote]

Being attacked at home would prove you didn't

make

a night action that night, not that you don't

have

one. Al was killed at home, and you seem to believe that he's confirmed scum. Can't have it both ways. All this witch, item, stuff is rather confusing, though it does appear to speak slightly in your favour, and strongly in PBuG's.

So The Fonz can try to twist our argument around all he wants. But, he can't twist the testimonies of a Vigilante, A Claimed Cop, and a Runesmith or whatever the role is.

Why would I want to? Seriously, what has any of that last post got to do with me? You're just having a go for the sake of it.

My arguments have been entirely based around your making unwarranted and illogical leaps, and refusing to see the facts right before your eyes, which means you're either stubborn and prone to jumping to conclusions, or scum trying to cause a mislynch. These facts are:

1. Al's deathscene was written in black, not red as you claimed.
2. We have a limited-reveal game, as shown by the fact that the vig came up 'strongman' and a (likely) townsperson came up 'gardener.' Hence your claim that IH could not possibly be a miller because he did not come up 'miller' does not make sense.

You use these errors/misreprensentations to justify the assumptions that a) al is definitely scum and b) IH was definitely not a miller. These are not safe assumptions to make, in fact I'd be willing to bet a substantial amount that you're wrong on at least one of those. With regard to the whole 'miller' thing, as I said, I believe my proposal gives us a fairly low-risk way of working out if indeed N9V is insane, without risking mislynching on the basis of an incorrect assumption.

You yourself said early on that you didn't think ESE was a cult. Now, I think you'd agree with me that the pattern of 1,1,3 (with one of the three attributed to a vig), on the nightkills does not suggest a third antitown killing group. That would mean multiple protective roles each being successful multiple times.

So, I'm guessing, as of right now, your position

has

to be that you believe the ESE to be the mafia in this game, right? Since MoS came up wolf. I believe that this is highly unlikely for flavour reasons, since:

1. The disturbing things noted in Al's deathscene do not tally with the nature of the nightkills which have occurred. We can, I think, safely presume that the shooting was a mafia kill. The victim wasn't tied up and whipped to death, or found hanging by the neck with an orange in his mouth or anything.

2. Mafia do not, in general, carry membership cards.

3. N9V, if telling the truth, was told that he finds mafia, not ESE. Plus his claimed name is 'Magistrate.' This would make me think we're dealing with regular-type-criminals.

You made this post, directed at DGB:

In regards to the ESE "clearly not being Mafia, just because its not spelled that way." This game takes place in a town with horse drawn carriages. The mafia don't have to be pasta-eating, cadillac-driving, guidos with tommy-guns. ESE could just be the flavor.

Now, I would agree with this sentiment, you appear to be going to the other extreme. It's not wise to assume they

are

mafia, either.

Now, if you want to make a rational, grown-up argument in response to these points, be my guest.

[Thok]

I see no reason for me to vote for PBug, or ~N9V~ ever and no reason for me to vote for Akbar at this moment. (Akbar's clearly giving off a frustrated townie vibe at the moment.) Given how the discussion is going, I suspect The Fonz of being scum [possibly ESE scum] and if that is the case then Raffles is probably in a different scum group from The Fonz (I'd be shocked if Raffles and The Fonz were scum together, as The Fonz has been more blatant in arguing against lynching Raffles then I'd expect a scum partner to be).

Now I only need to figure out how I feel about 7 more people.

A couple quick comments on things The Fonz said (a lot of stuff that I feel is overly complicated nonsense has been cut out):

1. Al's deathscene was written in black, not red as you claimed.

The ESE membership card is specifially written in red. What do you think that means?

(I find it possible that the ESE is actually some sort of millerish S&M club; I find that more likely then a mayor being millerish.)

2. Mafia do not, in general, carry membership cards.

In general, werewolves do not show up in real life. We need some storyline mechanic to describe how we recognize mafia. Membership cards are as reasonable as any other technique. It's called suspension of disbelief. They've been used in mafia games before.

[Akbar]

That makes me like you more, Akbar, but I think that your explaining that wasn't a very wise move. If what you're saying is true, then you put PBuG at risk.

Your probably right and it wasn't my first choice. I even withheld his identity on day 3. But, it seemed like several players aren't even here. Maybe with the release of new info it will get more people involved.

Your whole argument boils down to "A pro-town player sent me something useful, so I must be pro-town" which doesn't logically follow at all.

No, that's what you decided make it into. One of my points was being attacked at home showed I didn't have a night action. Another was attacking MoS, a proven Wolf. Another was the witnesses that attested to the circumstance. And now I have a new one. The people suspect of me are....oh look, The Fonz, BM and Fuldu. What a coincidence.

Now, if you want to make a rational, grown-up argument in response to these points, be my guest.

Rehashing the same debate and being condescending about it doesn't change anything. Isn't that what you said to BM? Repeating it doesn't make it true. The fact is, you suggested a faulty strategy, which was even self-admitted:

Perhaps four was a little strong, i thought there were a couple more alive than there are.

I pointed out flaws in it. Now your afraid how it made you look so your attacking me.
Here's another one:

Al was killed at home, and you seem to believe that he's confirmed scum. Can't have it both ways.

Anyone here see this statement contrasting with the Mod's version of the death scene?

al4xz was one of those people and he was out and about in the evening. He knew the risks of what he was doing and the risk was what made him do it. A shiver of excitement ran along his spine as he crossed the village green, on his way to the river. He hoped for a rendezvous there, and if that didn't happen, he could always help himself.

[Kison]

Akbar, how does the fact that you were attacked at home make you not scum? You could be scum who didn't carry out a night kill.

[Akbar]

@Kison
Your asking me to debate your opinion of probability. I think me being home at night, among other things is an indication of my town affiliation. If you don't think that's the case, that's on you.

[The Fonz]

Now, if you want to make a rational, grown-up argument in response to these points, be my guest.

Rehashing the same debate and being condescending about it doesn't change anything. Isn't that what you said to BM? Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Given what you post next, this is hilariously hypocritical.

The fact is, you suggested a faulty strategy, which was even self-admitted:

Perhaps four was a little strong, i thought there were a couple more alive than there are.

I pointed out flaws in it. Now your afraid how it made you look so your attacking me.

That was an admitted mistake, and yet you're still going on about it. How's that for arguing from repetition? And, yet again, you change the subject, away from the questions I actually asked in my last post, back onto to something irrelevant that puts you back on the offensive.

@Thok: My point about the ESE card, not the death announcement written in red ink is that Akbar is specifically misrepresenting the past, and when called on it, has not admitted this and just changed the subject time after time.

And, actually, a werewolf killed at night would show up, presumably. Do you not find it odd that the mafia have killed with the usual mafia method, ie shooting, and yet of all the disturbing things found in Al's house, a gun or ammo wasn't any of them, nor did he have one on his person?

[Phoebus]

Apologies for being AWOL.
Vote count and update in 24h

[TBuG]

Oh, thank you, Akbar. Now I get to be nightkilled. I'm pretty much sure giving you that WAS a mistake, seeing as how you weren't even in your home the next night. How do I know, you ask? Well, the other perk of my role is that I can choose to, instead of giving a rune away, I get to fly around and find out who was out of their homes. You were out of your home Night 2.

[Thok]

Oh, thank you, Akbar. Now I get to be nightkilled. I'm pretty much sure giving you that WAS a mistake, seeing as how you weren't even in your home the next night. How do I know, you ask? Well, the other perk of my role is that I can choose to, instead of giving a rune away, I get to fly around and find out who was out of their homes. You were out of your home Night 2.

That was the night Shanba attacked Akbar, right? Would that cause Akbar to be kept outside his house?

Do we want PBug to dump his list of people who were out and about night 2?

[Fuldu]

I think a dump of the people out and about is probably a bad idea. It gets us a list that includes (presumably) one person from each scum group and all power roles who did something (likely all cops and docs, for example). That seems much more valuable to scum.

Your whole argument boils down to "A pro-town player sent me something useful, so I must be pro-town" which doesn't logically follow at all.

No, that's what you decided make it into. One of my points was being attacked at home showed I didn't have a night action. Another was attacking MoS, a proven Wolf. Another was the witnesses that attested to the circumstance. And now I have a new one. The people suspect of me are....oh look, The Fonz, BM and Fuldu. What a coincidence.

I didn't realize that having been attacked at home was based in any sort of facts that could be deduced from the information available to the town, and still don't see where that's coming from. I had read that as a claim, not an argument. Attacking MoS is an acceptable argument, but it's hardly indicative that you're not scum, only that you're less likely to be a wolf. Witnesses attesting to your having received and used an item from a pro-town player still goes back to my earlier argument. I was not trying to suggest that you hadn't received an item from PBuG, just that that fact doesn't have anything to do with your being pro-town. Witnesses don't change that, they just verify that you're telling the truth about having received and used the item.

Add to that the fact that PBuG is now saying you weren't really home and I'm more inclined to trust him than you.

unvote: bird1111; vote: Akbar

[Thok]

Before Akbar gets run up, I want to make sure that PBug actually understands what his role does, and that Akbar gave us the correct information about the runes. After Evolution Mafia, I'm not going to blindly follow PBug until he double checks the info he got from his role.

In addition, I'll note that if Akbar was scum, his scum group has had at least two nights to kill PBug.

[Akbar]

I can't believe you would lash out at me, PBuG. I had you covered. Wasn't it obvious I didn't mean you any harm? I found out about your role on Day 2. I stopped all suspicion and pressuring right after that. I even kept your identity secret for 2 days. And above all, your still alive, 2 days later! If I was scum, don't you think I would have taken you out by now? All you had to do was go along with it. I would have remained hidden as Vanilla Town, and you would have stayed protected.

Since tonight is likely my last night, for what its worth, I was right about MoS, and I still think BM, Fuldu, and possibly The Fonz are scums.

For the rest of the town asleep at the wheel, I'm Guillermo, the Village Healer.

@Thok
He's right, I was out of my house that night. I was protecting PBuG. His Rune did in fact protect me from Shanba's attack.

[Kison]

Where were you

last

night, then?

[Akbar]

At home. The first night I protected SV(now The Fonz). The 2nd night was PBuG. Tonight will be PBuG again.

Last night is the only night I was unable to protect. The Moderator has forbid me to tell you why or even hint at it.

[The Fonz]

I think a dump of the people out and about is probably a bad idea. It gets us a list that includes (presumably) one person from each scum group and all power roles who did something (likely all cops and docs, for example). That seems much more valuable to scum.

Agreed. As far as I can see, it has all the disadvantages of a mass claim, without any of the advantages, since it allows any scum PBuG has seen to formulate a fakeclaim based on what he says, rather than having everyone claim roles first, then reveal information.

I actually think Akbar makes an extremely good point about PBuG still being alive. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a scum role who's been given the identity of a town power role not to kill him.

Then again, he has been caught in a lie.

[Thok]

Agreed. As far as I can see, it has all the disadvantages of a mass claim, without any of the advantages, since it allows any scum PBuG has seen to formulate a fakeclaim based on what he says, rather than having everyone claim roles first, then reveal information.

Fair enough. I think it really depends on how many people PBug has seen outside their houses already; if he's seen enough to imply that certain people are scum, we should know that info.

I actually think Akbar makes an extremely good point about PBuG still being alive. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a scum role who's been given the identity of a town power role not to kill him.

Then again, he has been caught in a lie.

What no "Akbar's claimed doc we must must must keep him alive?"

My personal feeling is to let scum deal with Akbar at night, now that's he's painted a big bulls-eye on himself. I'm pretty sure that he's a frustrated protown player, albeit one who's playing poorly.

Of his claim, the only thing that causes me concern is his comments about night 3, which support his claim (I wouldn't expect Akbar to throw in traces of weirdness out of nowhere, but the fct that the weirdness exists is a separate concern).

[The Fonz]

I actually think Akbar makes an extremely good point about PBuG still being alive. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a scum role who's been given the identity of a town power role not to kill him.

Then again, he has been caught in a lie.

What no "Akbar's claimed doc we must must must keep him alive?"

Haha. I was actually expecting the attack on that particular comment to come from the opposite direction, since I'm a big LALer. In all seriousness, though, what is the difference between my desire to leave the N9V situation to see if it resolves itself/ if we can get a couple of useful results out of it, and this:

My personal feeling is to let scum deal with Akbar at night, now that's he's painted a big bulls-eye on himself. I'm pretty sure that he's a frustrated protown player, albeit one who's playing poorly.

?

Incidentally, if Akbar protected me night one, that would explain why throughout this entire flamewar, he's never once voted me.

[Phoebus]

Vote Count:

1 ~N9V~ (Battle Mage)
1 Akbar (Fuldu)
2 bird1111 (Kison, Thok)

4 Battle Mage (~N9V~, Akbar, PBuG, theopor_COD)

1 PBuG (Raffles)
1 Thok (The Fonz)

3 not voting: bird1111, Lowell, The Greg

7 to lynch, 4 at deadline

Deadline 2: Monday the 9th of July, 1700 GMT

Final deadline up. I think this day has gone on long enough.

[Thok]

The Fonz, the difference is that your only justification for keeping N9V around is his cop claim, otherwise he's a giant neutral to you. I was already defending Akbar because of the tone I got from his posts (and because of the tone I saw from his attackers); in fact you'll noticed in post 1565 that I was certain enough of Akbar's protownishness that I thought something else was going on. In other words, I'm giving reasons other than "Akbar is a power role" to keep him around; you seem to be slavishly going "must defend claimed power role".

[Akbar]

I was already defending Akbar because of the tone I got from his posts (and because of the tone I saw from his attackers)

Glad somebody noticed.

@The Fonz
Earlier you tried to say Alex was killed at home and The Mod said he crossed the Village Green headed to the river to have a rendezvous. That wasn't a lie or you misrepresenting the past right?