Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Cavane]

I'm here and have been watching the thread. I'll have my assignment done before PJ gets back, just haven't had much to comment on, I'm afraid.

[Toaster Strudel]

Aye, now I have to answer MoS's questions... so many.

(1) Why did you just follow CES's votes (which had no reason) and give no reason of your own?
(2) Why did you vote Smashy without reason?
(7) What reason did you have for voting DH, SV, VitR, and mnowax2?
(4) Why did you later think mnowax was town again? (these were about mnowax1).
(6) Why did you vote SV without giving any reason for it?
(8)Why was Fritzler one of your preferred lynches, and why did you not want VitR to be lynched, even though you voted for him?

The answers are already in the the posts where I voted and expressed my opinions. For example, for (7), I was agreeing with PJ's analysis, and I clearly stated that. And I've also explained why I think Fritzler is scum quite clearly http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 679#644679 - so you and everybody can go and read my posts, it's all there.

Your questions are worded in a way to make it look like there is scum happenin' - but a lot of players might interpret things differently.

(3) Why did you say that you think mnowax gives bad vibes naturally, not as scum, and then later vote him without an explanation? That was a bit of metagaming, I was in a game with him I think at the time, and he was scummy as hell. And I think he was town.
(5) How does my behavior compare to Bad Idea II? - I didn't play that game, but DrippingGoofball tells me that the two games have different concepts, and you were Godfather, and it's not an idea to use that game to metagame you.
(9) Why is Fritz wanting to kill me evidence of his scumminess, when you want to kill me as well? I want to kill you? - It's not evidence of scumminess or not, since your alignment is unknown, but I wanted to record the fact that he ONCE posted that he wanted to kill you. Might be useful later.

[Yosarian2]

I really tend to think that this kind of assignment is kind of a waste of time, and a distraction; no one wants to do it, and that kind of makes everyone lurk because they keep putting off putting together the analysis. Especally with a deadline coming up, I'd rather be analyizing people we might actually lynch today rather then Thesp or PJ. Nonetheless, i'll give it a shot, I guess. Let me go back and read Thesp's posts first...

[RafK]

I'm around, but as said, literally do not have the time to do a re-read until after the end-of-financial-year rush is over. E.g. it will be done after June 30.

[Yosarian2]

Thesp: Early on, in his first post, he voted like 5 people, including me. I asked him why he “wasn’t super comfortable” with me, and he said he wasn’t going to share the reasons “at this time”. That was way back in the beginning of march, and as far as I know he never did. Got to say, that bugs me a bit; don’t really trust people who claim to have reasons to suspect someone else and then never share them.

I do agree with the points he made against MOS.

Later, he defended Lowell with very vauge reasoning. Something to note for later.

He was in favor of the SV lynch, and I also agree with him about the weirdness of Zinderas yesterday.

In general, I get a pro-town vibe from him, although the vagueness of some of his early posts bugs me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aye, now I have to answer MoS's questions... so many.

(1) Why did you just follow CES's votes (which had no reason) and give no reason of your own?
(2) Why did you vote Smashy without reason?
(7) What reason did you have for voting DH, SV, VitR, and mnowax2?
(4) Why did you later think mnowax was town again? (these were about mnowax1).
(6) Why did you vote SV without giving any reason for it?
(8)Why was Fritzler one of your preferred lynches, and why did you not want VitR to be lynched, even though you voted for him?

The answers are already in the the posts where I voted and expressed my opinions. For example, for (7), I was agreeing with PJ's analysis, and I clearly stated that. And I've also explained why I think Fritzler is scum quite clearly http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 679#644679 - so you and everybody can go and read my posts, it's all there.

Your questions are worded in a way to make it look like there is scum happenin' - but a lot of players might interpret things differently.

(3) Why did you say that you think mnowax gives bad vibes naturally, not as scum, and then later vote him without an explanation? That was a bit of metagaming, I was in a game with him I think at the time, and he was scummy as hell. And I think he was town.
(5) How does my behavior compare to Bad Idea II? - I didn't play that game, but DrippingGoofball tells me that the two games have different concepts, and you were Godfather, and it's not an idea to use that game to metagame you.
(9) Why is Fritz wanting to kill me evidence of his scumminess, when you want to kill me as well? I want to kill you? - It's not evidence of scumminess or not, since your alignment is unknown, but I wanted to record the fact that he ONCE posted that he wanted to kill you. Might be useful later.

There is a lot wrong with this post, and I'm highly unsatisfied with TS's answers, but I'm going to sleep now, so I'll try to answer tonight sometime.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Yosarian2

D1
- Early vote on MoS for saying he won't vote people. I agree with this
- Follow FoS on pabs for licking in towards Glork.
- Vote for Phoebus, preferation above pabs, bird and CDB. Saying he doesn't have strong scumfeelings towards anyone right now.
- There's no word heard about Rosso from Yos. I don't know if he just missed it or he just lurked there, but I'm going to assume he was not around at that point.

So far: Neutral. It's the usual D1 play

D2
- The first part of D2 is lost and since I was not around, I don't know what happened back then.
- Vote for Twomz
- Discussion with Glork after Glork attacked him. Reasons were mainly about giving preferations about the LoE yesterday, where Yos prefered phoebus, but not eleborated a little more on this. Although it is a little odd not do eleborate more on it, it does not strike me as a scumtell immediatly.
- Vote for Pabs for Glork licking.
- FoS for Phoebus for bandwagonning. This is the second time he states his suspicions towards Phoebus, but it doesn't turn anything near a vote. Scumbuddy?
- Discussion with Pabs and Bird. The problem is I can't reread about the part that has been deleted during the early D2, but he's continuely stating his defense for Bird. I'm buying it because I think enough people would knew if he would lie.
- Says he thinks Pabs is likely town, after he previously find him scummy. Scummy
- guesses he thinks PJ is town. Reasons seem a bit odd. Read below

After that, it gets harder. If I had to guess, I'd guess PJ was town based on his actions and the style of his posts; it doesn’t seem to me that scum would act the way he did at the end of the day on day one, but that's a very WIFOM argument and I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, especially as he did end up killing a townie and giving us next to no information from day 1 in the process.

- This post is very confusing to me:

..boy, this is rather embarassing. I had forgotten most of the details about this game in the 10 days the site was down, and when I did a re-read to answer Glork's question, I seem to have come to a completly different opinion then what I had thought before the crash, and I didn't re-read my own posts so I didn't even notice. I just went back to see who I was voting for, and it turns out I'm voting for one of the people I just said I thought was innocent.

unvote:pablito

I'm most suspicious of Twomz and Phoebus at this point.

- Defense against Zindaras. Doesn't ring a scumbell.
- States his suspicions towards Glork for not doing his homework assignment.
- Discussion with Phoebus. I think his posts here were actually quite good.
- States Pooky as neutral.

So Far: He had to catch alot of flack today, and I must admit that i've picked up several scumvibes from him, but also some good ones. Currently leaning towards slightly scummy, especially since he stated Pooky neutral.

D3
- Vote for Phoebus and Samus
- Says he could believe Glork bussing Pooky. This sounds odd, especially since it would be noted if Glork lived long after he would've bussed a partner. I don't think that people wouldn't suspect him if he lived until this day.
- Defense against Glork for his votes on Phoebus and Twomz. He stick to stone to it, which seems normal to me if you vote someone. Nothing alarming here.
- Vote for MoS for defending Pooky.
- Eleboration on his votes, on request. Phoebus: contentless lurkerscum. Twomz: birdwagon. MoS: Defense Pooky
- Pushing for Phoebus hammer.
- Defense against RafK.
- States he prefers a LL execution above SV.
- Supports DoS execution

So far: My sense of scum towards his increased dramaticly. His vote against MoS while not being a fan of a Pooky execution himself at that point, suspicions towards Glork bussing, prefering LL (town) above SV (scum) all don't strike me as positive. My guts say he's scum now, but I'll see where it ends up after I totally readed the thread.

D4: Kingship of Yos
- LoE: Mos, Vitty, SV, Smashy
- Asks everyone for comments on people on list above
- Adds Mnowax to list
- Eleboration on LoE: MoS (not so scummy anymore), SV (because other people...), Vitty (rep. Phoebus), Smashy (because Rikku was a bad king yesterday), Mnowax (defense Pooky). Seriously, I find this post alarmingly scummy.
- says he's leaning towards Mnowax lynch, although he states before that he always finds Mnowax scummy.
- says he's sharing thoughts with PJ.
- Hammer Mnowax

so far: still leaning towards scum. His Kingship didn't really give me any good vibes. He was trying to go with the flow of the rest of the town is the impression I got, but this could be good or bad either way.

D5
- Defense against RafK. Nothing suspicious IMO
- Lowell follows Rafk, so Yos rereads Lowell and then votes him. OMGUS?
- Supports both Fritz and Vitty execution.

So far: not so much more alarming on D5. My suspicions has decreased a little, but not much. My guts still think he is scum.

Overall: Leaning towards scum

I'll do PJ later.

[Toaster Strudel]

There is a lot wrong with this post, and I'm highly unsatisfied with TS's answers, but I'm going to sleep now, so I'll try to answer tonight sometime.

Yep, well, I didn't answer it in a manner to satisfy you, because all your questions are worded on the model of "when did you stop beating your wife" and I am not foolish enough to waste my time answering your twisted questions, especially since you can find the answers in the thread yourself, all the answers are there, and I don't need to repeat them, and I don't want to repeat them.

If I am executed, it will help the town, because there are too many players, too many pages to this game, not enough evidence to go on because of the game mechanic, and little hope of it picking up pace.

We need to cull the herd to a manageable size, and at a good clip. Cutting down on useless players like Fritzler or even myself is a good idea overall.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you deny that you copied CES's reasonless votes without providing reason of your own?

Okay.

Vote: Zindaras, Lowell

They should probably die.

Unassailable logic.

Vote: Zindaras, Lowell

Do you deny that you voted Smashy without providing a reason for it?

vote: Smashy

and I'll vote Yos too if he takes too long making up his mind!

Do you deny that you voted SV without giving any reason of your own?

Considering how painfully long it is to lynch someone in this game, zombies are extremely annoying. They undo all of yesterday's work, krrrap!!!

I think Yos is town. MoS's overwhelming eagerness reminds me of his behavior in Bad Idea Mafia II where he was the Godfather.

And I'll support PJ's campaign. I want to test PJ, really.

vote: MoS, SV

OMG PJ is a genius too. I am sorry but I must defer to brains that are so much more sophisticated and better irrigated than the bean-sized, oxygen-starved bit of grey matter tightly housed in my thick skull.

vote: Der Hammer

- secret handshake with Thesp, I will never wash hands again.

vote: spectrumvoid
vote: VitaminR
vote: mnowax

Love you PJ.

Do you deny that the above post shows you voting DH, SV, VitR, and mnowax without reason of your own?

If anything, the answer found in the thread is that you DO have actions to explain, despite your own denial.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, why did it take King PJ asking you to analyze 2 people, and then you messing up who you were supposed to analyze for you to get around to actually giving evidence to support your Fritzler suspicion?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Your questions are worded in a way to make it look like there is scum happenin' - but a lot of players might interpret things differently.

The questions are indeed slighltly loaded questions. That's because you've done something scummy that you need to answer for, so of course the questions are biased.

(3) Why did you say that you think mnowax gives bad vibes naturally, not as scum, and then later vote him without an explanation? That was a bit of metagaming, I was in a game with him I think at the time, and he was scummy as hell. And I think he was town.

This explains why you thought mnowax could be town. This does

not

explain why you later voted for him after saying you thought he was town.

(5) How does my behavior compare to Bad Idea II? - I didn't play that game, but DrippingGoofball tells me that the two games have different concepts, and you were Godfather, and it's not an idea to use that game to metagame you.

Huh? This answer makes no sense to me. Are you saying you were wrong or right in comparing me to Bad Idea II?

(9) Why is Fritz wanting to kill me evidence of his scumminess, when you want to kill me as well? I want to kill you? - It's not evidence of scumminess or not, since your alignment is unknown, but I wanted to record the fact that he ONCE posted that he wanted to kill you. Might be useful later.

Ah, I see. Ok.

[VitaminR]

Mert

- First thing that strikes me as that his early posts (his first four real contributions) all discuss game mechanics.
- He then votes MOS, cbb and bird for what I think aren't really good reasons. His cbb vote is based on a bit of speculation concerning cbb's actions and his MOS vote is based on the fairly easy "he's not voting."
- Later votes cbb for a "woe is me"-attitude. Again, fairly easy.
- I don't much like his consequent switch to Phoebus for playing by gut. Mert seems to develop a pattern of voting players for not being perfect townies.
- His next posts are a series of explanations and I notice that he doesn't really mention other players.
- Then there is a post where he is voting Twomz and Pooky over the "nut-kicking"-incident. Wasn't there, still not sure what it was about.

Conclusion: primarily bad/easy votes and little initiative, but nothing that screams scum.

RafK

- He comes in with some clear opinions. Definitely looks pro-town on that first post.
- Gives a fairly detailed case on SV. In hindsight, it could be constructed. Let's see how he presents cases against other players.
- Hints at being suspicious of pablito, but doesn't get back to that later. Changing your mind like that is a slight pro-town point, because it suggests a lack of artifice in your suspicions.
- Votes Yos and CES. There's something to his case on Yos and CES.
- He confirm votes Yos and calls him a liar over something fairly minor. The heat is coming off his initial top suspect, SV, as well here. Slightly scummy.
- Picks up the SV case again, so the above conclusion may have been premature. I don't like his fairly wishy-washy comment towards LL just before he got executed.
- Says MOS, Phoebus and SV would make good lynches because a lot of people have opinions on them. Don't particularly like that argumentation.
- Rest of his posts don't contain much that is noteworthy.

Conclusion: Case against SV doesn't really say much either way in my view (it could have very well been constructed). I like the frequency of his contributions, but he does seem to have developed a tunnel-vision attitude with his fervour in chasing Yos. It is not really ringing true.

All in all, after this re-read (which I admit has sharpened my views somewhat), I wouldn't be dissatisfied with a RafK execution. There is nothing obviously pro-town in his or Mert's posts and a couple of scummy patterns.

[Thok]

Prodding ThAdmiral, Lowell, and Fritzler

[VitaminR]

Fritzler

- Calls Pooky a "good guy" and his "scumbuddy." Seems way too obvious.
- Pushes for a ctd execution to the point of stupidity.
- Votes Nightson, pulls some kind of Thor shtick in which he says Yos, SV and Kaleidoscope have to die
- Foses olio
- Votes everyone
- Unvotes Yos, says he would have executed MOS or Thadmiral
- Seems to want to kill TS.

Conclusion: Fritz is kinda all over the place, which I'd see him do as town sooner than I'd see him do it as scum. In any case, he's a bit of a non-influence on the town. The Pooky comments are the only things that speak against him and I don't think they're very convincing.

I would definitely prefer a RafK execution over a Fritzler one.

[Toaster Strudel]

@MoS

So I followed CES's reasonless vote. So what?

Anything

to get this game moving. For Smashy's vote I believe I was going along with the mood of impatience with his reign, I've made no secret that I am impatient in this game. For the rest, no I didn't give reasons "of my own" but I did agree with the reasons of others. Got a problem with that? I am glad that you admit your questions are "slightly" loaded - but some might think they are fully loaded. I have to admit I don't find this game particularly stimulating, some of it my own fault; we have some great players, but I don't like the Kingmaker type mechanic and I won't ever sign up for a Kingmaker type game again.

~~~~~

I do find VitaminR's analysis of Fritzler ( and his conclusion that Fritzler isn't scummy) interesting in view of the fact VitaminR is one of the players that Fritzler never mentions at all. Distancing maybe? I dunno.

Also, seeing that I already analyzed Fritzler (out of sequence, mind you) I wonder why VitaminR didn't volunteer to analyze the guy I was supposed to analyse instead of Fritzler. Maybe it was important for VitaminR not to miss an opportunity to defend Fritzler.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see why VitR would think to do that. He has his own assignment on purpose, it's not his problem that you messed up.

Thank you for finally explaining yourself. At least now we get the bigger picture. When you voted Smashy, it was under Yos2 as King, so it couldn't have been due to the impatience of his reign, but it's clear you don't remember what it was.

Who do you think is scum right now, and why?

[Thok]

It has come to my attention that Thespival is two weeks from when PJ gets back. So, in order to avoid that, you guys have a tenative deadline of 3 pm PDT July 10th. This can be extended once to 3 PM PDT July 19th if people so desire; the July 19th deadline cannot be further extended.

[Lowell]

Still procrastinating on my second (ThAdmiral). He's had like a million incarnations, so I'll get to him when I have more time on monday.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Says he thinks Pabs is likely town, after he previously find him scummy. Scummy
- guesses he thinks PJ is town. Reasons seem a bit odd. Read below
[quote]After that, it gets harder. If I had to guess, I'd guess PJ was town based on his actions and the style of his posts; it doesn’t seem to me that scum would act the way he did at the end of the day on day one, but that's a very WIFOM argument and I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, especially as he did end up killing a townie and giving us next to no information from day 1 in the process. [/quote]
- This post is very confusing to me:[quote="Yosarian2"]..boy, this is rather embarassing. I had forgotten most of the details about this game in the 10 days the site was down, and when I did a re-read to answer Glork's question, I seem to have come to a completly different opinion then what I had thought before the crash, and I didn't re-read my own posts so I didn't even notice. I just went back to see who I was voting for, and it turns out I'm voting for one of the people I just said I thought was innocent.

unvote:pablito

[/quote]
[/quote]
Ok, I can see how all this could be confusing as you weren't in the game at the time.

The forum was down, on an off, for something like a month total. Stuff was all screwed up. If I remember corretly, someone (probably King Glork?) asked me who I thought was town, so I went through and read several different people's entire post listing looking for signs of pro-town-ness. At this point, the game had been down so long, I had mostly forgotten most of what I got from the thread earlier, and I didn't bother to re-read my earlier posts, so while doing this, I forgot that I had earlier suspeted pablito, and re-reading the thread fresh I saw some things I thought were signs of pro-town-ness. You can see how no one really remembered what had been going on, as no one even commented on me saying that I found one of the people I had been voting for as looking pro-town until I noticed it myself after a vote count.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Alright. I suppose that makes a bit sense then. The fact that a part was deleted is a bit frustrating though, as it involved alot pookyscum activities.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cavane/Der Hammer/Vaughn:

Vaughn (8 posts):

defends self from PJ putting him on the list based on his first post (+1 townieness)

pointed out PJ's "convenient" post about being scum last game (+1 townieness)

calls pablito town, but bad town.

Conclusion: Lazy, but town

Der Hammer (21 posts):

Repeatedly says that he'll post but doesn't (-1 townieness)

votes LuckayLuck for voting DH on someone else's opinions

Thinks LL is a better kill than SV

votes mnowax for not saying anything

unvotes mnowax and points out how MoS is "dictacting" executions

Agrees with Smashy and MoS executions, opposes VitR and SV executions. (-1 townieness)

Conclusion: Looks scummier than Vaughn, for sure. Doesn't seem to want to say much about SV, and doesn't want SV executed.

Cavane (17 posts):

Good opening posting with responses to a lot of people (+1 townieness)

disagrees that lynching for information is a bad reason

doesn't like TS lurking in plain sight (+1 townieness)

Doesn't understand VitR trying to find scum from the SV wagon, since there were so many people

Conclusion: A lot of contribution, good posts, solid opinions

+2 townieness

I had bad feelings about Der Hammer, but he's somewhat naturally scummy, I guess. I would MUCH rather execute Toaster Strudel than Cavane.

[mnowax]

is still here. Once again nothing much to say.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MNOWAX YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT FROM THE KING. DO IT OR FACE EXECUTION

I would like everyone to take notice of how mnowax has acted differently this time, choosing to actively lurk without any contribution rather than flailing around with bad arguments.

[mnowax]

WAHHH KING! MOS IS TELLING ON ME!!!!

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm very tempted to break my own rule and place a vote (*gasp*) on mnowax out of sheer annoyance.