—Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Southern Gothic

In the great Halibut's eyes, only the chosen may thrive.

Spoiler:

She somehow felt simultaneously disgusted and validated by the eyeballs sliding over her. She shuddered in anticipation.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: farside

The Great Smoked Halibut does not shirk when the enemy so willingly presents itself.

First game back, let's see how this shakes out.

Vote: farside22

The Lesser Fried Sanddab swims alongside its larger and smarter brother in the hopes that two fish bodies may accomplish more than one.

Spoiler:

He could feel his essence screaming for hers: he knew he shouldn't surrender to his body's desires but with the look in her eyes and the feeling deep in his loins he knew there was only one way the night would end. He felt her soft lips on his neck as the rest of the world slowly melted away.

[Nachomamma8]

i think nacho's dumb vote on me is a reach out of some sorts cos when he is scum HE IGNORES THE FUCK OUT OF ME AND PRETENDS LIKE I DO NOT EXIST.

BUT HE SHLD KNOW BETTER

For a moment, I forgot my lady was an extremely elderly and sensitive one and votes on her were like shining the full might of the sun's radiance on a dweller of the night. Your loyal servant will endeavor to do better in the future.

mollie, Nacho ignores me too but I just sit and wait for him to return. You have to trust in him too. Like you trust in the Great Smoked Salmon. Though I do not deny that there is sometimes sadness when I am overlooked for a prettier fish girl.

Andylove,

My ears are always open to your adventures and woes and I am always sitting by Skype with anticipation that one day you will return to me. I never intended to abandon my river-brother.

You're presuming I have a crush on you for your conciliatory personality.

ilu iece

Spoiler:

Time slowed to a crawl and then vanished while they were together. His words and his touch electrified and stimulated her body and mind and she prayed it would last forever, that he would never leave her and the sun would never rise, that they would spend eternal life together in this instant. He let out a deep moan of ecstasy, that sent a shiver down her spine and she realized even if this moment were somehow to pass, she would never forget his smell, his touch, or his seductive voice.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's become weirder.

There's always a method to my madness, ABR.

Vote: ABR

I don't really find you being nice to be indicative of scum, but I can acknowledge unusual behavior makes you more likely to be a wolf playing a sheep than small farside pings that I can't really explain. In particular though, I didn't like your conditioning comment: my goal this game isn't to make the people I'm playing with more pleasant to play with, my goal is to win. Your comment came across like either I should be more focused on the former than the latter OR you were threatening to revert to mean ABR, and neither interpretation exactly inspires confidence.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't understand the scumread on ABR even though I just explained it...?
And my explanation has nothing to do at all with #82?

[Nachomamma8]

Gentlemen, let's be reasonable. Voting for me for being complimentary and expressing my approval of you is like feeding your dog when he's begging for food while you're eating. You're not reinforcing the behavior you want to elicit here.

This is the conditioning comment I'm referring to.

Andrius's townread on Iecerint (which I thought you were questioning?) is what Iecerint is referring to.

[Nachomamma8]

I enjoy Andrius quite a bit as a person. He has been gone for a while. As a result, probably gonna fall all over him. In the meantime, I'm making a real life push on ABR and have put out probably as much or more alignment indicative material than anyone else in thread?

[Nachomamma8]

So I can't really understand where you're coming from here.

[Nachomamma8]

I agree that the personality bit wasn't really that awesome to me, hence why I didn't follow Pine when he voted initially. The reason I ended up voting because ofABR's feeding dogs comment, as I mentioned earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

Is that still not standard for hydras?

andy we have a hydra and I never sign my posts I don't really feel like I need to cos most people will figure out it is me in a matter of minutes. when tth posts you will know it.

yes far, tth and I did talk about the players as they were signing up. I have hydras with nacho, andy and who and tth has a hydra with jingle that is waiting to be used I think. she wanted to know if I had experience with the playerlist and I said I think every1 sort of but i don't remember the game I played with 4 trouble and albert subbed out of the 1 game we had together.

i think nacho's dumb vote on me is a reach out of some sorts cos when he is scum HE IGNORES THE FUCK OUT OF ME AND PRETENDS LIKE I DO NOT EXIST.

BUT HE SHLD KNOW BETTER

Curious to know what you two ladies said about me.
I had imagined some paranoia or hate after our last game together.

far this is the closest thing to a question that I found and it is more of a comment than a question.

sorry, we didn't talk about you that much! I don't have a good enough baseline for you yet but i think I said something to the effect of "we will see how she goes". tth may have her own opinion tho. mostly i talked about nacho and andy and then some who. <---- hydra partners. who i don't know so well but tth has a hydra with jingle. I don't they have a completed yet tho.

Can we write smut together again? I loved it when we were doing that.

[Nachomamma8]

I was being facetious. Come now, let's vote out the southern gothic abomination.

I am part of more abominations than most if not all players on site, so I can't really join you in a hydra policy lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

ugh why are you waiting on me i don't matter

[Nachomamma8]

also mollie why are you so obsessed w/the south???

[Nachomamma8]

waiting on nacho!

[Nachomamma8]

I never said or meant to imply it was strange behavior

[Nachomamma8]

I don't matter was referring to my worth as a person, not my relevance to the game.

[Nachomamma8]

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Skip to Next Vote Count

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I wasn't trying to discourage your behavior either. I don't understand the since when question.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know what to do with albert. I can't tell if he is scum or not like I really can't tell.

I can't either! But I don't like his pushes so far and I don't like a few things he's done thus far, so.

unvote;
Vote: farside22

This seems like a poorly timed vote: farside's reaffirmation of her vote on FourTrouble actually looked pretty townish!

126 is odd, though. Not sure why she jumped in like that when she could've just waited for you to say something.

Why is this scummy, exactly?

Mollie, I don't like your Konowa vote.

[Nachomamma8]

I disagree.

[Nachomamma8]

okay. this is the second time that you seem to not understand what I am doing. I have my reasons and I am still waiting for konowa to get with us since he said he was doing some reassessment.

OK.
I'm just telling you Konowa's probably town.

[Nachomamma8]

It was a shitty vote. It wasn't scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

Also sorry if I'm coming across as a dick or as overly frank, I'm hungover because it's January 1st! I'm reading over the game a bit more now and hopefully will be able to put out my reads by the time the pizza gets here.

[Nachomamma8]

no i'm not cranky!
just hungover

[Nachomamma8]

where i'm coming from is i can see you sort of gearing up on konowa and i wanted to tell you that i have a pretty good townread on him that i will explain more thoroughly when i do my big type up. i think flames/abr make a stronger starting point

[Nachomamma8]

like abr not picking on all is who the actual hydra abomination seems like him trying to continue not to play to the crowd since his beginning push on you guys didn't really go so well. i think abr's strength as scum is playing to the crowd around him: he generally knows the right amount of aggressiveness people are gonna like, he knows the types of angles people are willing to push, etc. i see him playing to the crowd here whereas konowa just seems like he's playing emotionally

[Nachomamma8]

and i really liked that he's thinking about your points that brought up: his unvote from farside with the whole "i'm gonna get drunk and rethink things" screamed town

[Nachomamma8]

i would be happier if you joined me on abr or went your own way on flames, yeah

[Nachomamma8]

Southern Gothic:

Spoiler:

I think Mollie looks fairly town from her exchange with Konowa starting in #123. It shows an emotional investment in scumhunting that she has a a lot of trouble mimicking in scum (in particular reading that asylum game in order to see what Konowa's talking about wrt farside's abrasiveness). I think that TTH looks fairly town in #211, which is also hilariously enough an interaction with Konowa. I additionally like the emotional investment there even if I'm not sure it's alignment indicative or not, but the stronger townvibes come from her picking apart Konowa's argument to the extent that she did and obviously making more of an attempt to understand where he's coming from as opposed to ram through a case on him, and I especially like that she's doing this after mollie already started the push: it's like mollie picked up on something, TTH followed up: if the hydra was scum and both players were attacking a single player like that, I would expect the effort to look a lot more like attempting to strongarm a mislynch.

I think mollie's read on Andrius is good although I don't think I feel town-him as strongly as mollie does.
Re: mollie's Konowa problems: I feel like farside is not the most abrasive of players, but I don't feel his annoyance with her is illegitimate, experiences being relative and all that. I don't really see a scum motivation for being excessively offended by her and none of his posting made it seem like he was faking it: his linking of the game and telling everyone to read it in particular was very genuine.
Re: TTH's Konowa problems: I think avoiding major points of conversation is scummy, or at the very least, anti-town, and thus don't really have a problem with Konowa going after things like that. I agree that his argument seems flawed thanks to him making what looks like an emotional push, but I don't think that being aware of a bias means that you're not still going to fall into it, just that you're less likely to fall into it, especially since the bias was probably newly renewed thanks to that recently completed game and fresh wounds make everything seem worse.
Re: Flames: I agree that the way he's approaching things isn't likely to be very productive, but I'm not sure that's alignment indicative. Coming into this game, I didn't really expect any deep analysis from that slot especially early game, and thought his early game questioning was him trying to get a bearing on game state. Don't really have a strong read on the slot though.

[Nachomamma8]

so i can go there with you if you want.

it is 2 votes and you know I don't move my/our vote until I am ready. I am not ready, hence why i said I feel like I am squatting on reads in this game.

[Nachomamma8]

tbf i'm not the one who made a promise and immediately broke it
and i wanted to bring it up since you're old and going senile so it's actually probably pretty likely you forgot you made it in the first place???

[Nachomamma8]

pump the brakes mollie, i'm teasing

[Nachomamma8]

teasing.

[Nachomamma8]

I've been marathoning all of the avatar the last airbender episodes, will report back as a new man when I finish Season 3. I think Iec is a pretty horrible vote!

[Nachomamma8]

And would love to know why that's the best you could manage to come up with, actually.

[Nachomamma8]

I am here iceyrent!!! I will keep you company!!!

patiently waiting for konowa and flames.

Did you notice Konowa replaced out?

[Nachomamma8]

Southern Gothic, Southern Belles, you knew I was addressing you.

Why obsess over the minutiae of posts? I showed concern for this obsession earlier.

Why do you think this obsession is alignment indicative, Gilgy?

[Nachomamma8]

Only scum would concern themselves with such petty nitpicking.

I figured that you would not be someone who needed to be encouraged to look deep inside himself in order to gain a better sense of perspective, my prince, but I feel a lot of the angles of yours that I've read have been pretty nitpicky, even this one! People asking to be calling the correct names is not something I've ever cared about, but it's pretty common across the board.

Also, mollie is someone who is often concerned with small details:

~ Mollie's Case(s)~

okay let me preface this by saying I am extremely uncomfortable with outing ansuz's meta but I will cos I want you guys to see what I see.

this was nacho's first post:

MY MOTHERFUCKING AVATAR IS OFF THE CHAIN

it looks like a poor imitation of thorella tbh

I'm not afraid to throw the game by tunneling the hell out of you for no apparent reason.
I think scum Tammy is shaking in her scum boots right now and Formerfish is like "fuck, I didn't sign up for defending chucklefuck partners".

tammy and former had only made 1 confirm post at this point but nacho has decided that they are scum. okay. formerathena makes a big long post and calls ansuz town and then ansuz gets sticky with the original lulz scumread, looking for reasons to paint the post as scummy.

this is the biggest mistake that scum make on this site. trying to justify an rvs suspicion or vote so that they do not have to move around too much. this is scum holding back but trying to look busy while watching to see where town herd mentality will go.

<-------- huge huge scumtell.

and then oh hai look a wagon is starting to form on bazinga and nacho goes, "this in no way reflects what I truly think" and then he votes me after about 10 exchanges with rancid where he defended me. but here is the thing;

he leaves the vote there and disappears knowing that there was a possibility that I would be quicklynched

. I meltdown, we tussle a bit he then moves it and then proceeds to go after tammy. tammy's wagon picks up steam under the direction of pfr and ansuz and then tammy meltsdown. they then decide to unvote tammy but not call her town and say they have hydra dissonance.

town nacho does not start wagons on tammy and mollie unless he is absolutely sure we are scum (note he has not called her town) and he definitely tends to those wagons in case he is wrong (he never is as town).

<--- he did not do this.

there are a million other things but the biggest 1 is that I have played over 60 games with nacho and only mislynched him once

and have spotted him as scum every time

. most of the time it did not lead to his lynch but the read was there.

I can read nacho.

<----- plz plz plz trust me on this.

re: pirate speak

how many times have you been scum? 10? 20? imagaine have over 50 scum games. you get bored. 1 of the things you start to do is to come up with mini-games like, find all of the specials on d1, give each other 3 improbable words that have nothing to do with each other and fit them in 1 post - little games like that. so you think of ways to make it fun! and trolling is certainly 1 of them.

now. daytalk. I have noticed that the majority of the players do not know how to pick up on when scum have daychat. in daychat you become familiar with each other and you are excited especially if you like your scummates and sometimes that talk carries over into the game thread. it carried over with ap and I in legends a little bit and it did with majiffy and I in reign of fire. the association between ansuz and rancid is how overly familiar they are with each other. <----- I have played them both in games they are usually not that friendly. so right there is an indication that there is likely a conversation going on someplace other than the game thread.

so i am thinking that the scumteam are feeling pretty confident about each other are super excited and decided to do this whole pirate theme I mean muffina changed his avvie and everything and talk like pirates. so they are having fun, they made a bet and things are going their way, they banter and

no1 suspects a thing.

except something doesn't seem right. the agreement to pirate speak defo took place somewhere other than in the game thread, their original use of it was way too natural and

I cannot emphasize enough the convo looks like it started somewhere else.

I in my vanity thought nacho pmed some people in sign-ups in order to troll me cos we are always trolling each other. the site I come from trolling is a highly prized skill, it is a way to ruthlessly cut down the people you don't like or it can be used as a way to show affection. <---- this may seem bizarre to you but at tr things are rarely what they seem. so, then I noticed that of all people who should have picked up on the pirate speak (bro) was not doing it. that bump against the tide me realise that not every1 was in on the troll, just a few. there was definitely a distinction between those who were in on it and those weren't. so I went and checked and there are 3 players who are doing it -----> 3. since ansuz was my top suspect I pieced it together and started to draw the parallels between what they were saying. go check for yourself if you don't believe me.

go and look at their pushes, look at their votes and you will see the connectivity there. take everything you know about scumhunting and step back and look at it globally and you will spot the team. what you are seeing with the pirate speak is an informed minority (pirates) vs. an uninformed majority (amazons and the rest of town).

now ask, why would scum tie themselves up like that it is retarded. there is a very simple answer to that

they did not expect to get caught

. most town do not pick up on little things like that. and I almost missed it myself. so that should tell you they had a very reasonable expectation of not getting caught. I mean I am the only who picked up on it.

so muffina and have a kerfuffle and I realise that with our discussion he is not trying to determine my alignment. then he got all pissy and I decided to take a step back and drink some koolaid and look at things from another angle mebbe I am just seeing things. so I do!

what gave muffina away was his response to my post; it was weird. instead of immediately addressing me he instead goes after clubhouse whom I was soft suspecting. when he addresses me he seems genuinely puzzled but also relieved. <---- I look for players responses after I give out reads. desp then unvotes tammy and I am thinking no fucking way would nacho go after tammy that hard if he was not sure. tammy can back me up on this. and that is when I knew; I was right the first time. so I puked up the koolaid and began a campaign to bring those cheeky scumfucks down.

where ap misstepped is as soon as I came roaring back to life mauffina backed down and then ap steps and then goes after sg. sg is even more obvtown than I am and I know for a fact that town ap would have seen that. he was trying to shift the direction of the flow.

So what you are telling me, is that you really want to be policy lynched today.

VOTE: bazinga

Yaaar! The damn bird should put the Cardassian in lead!

CAUGHT SCUM IS CAUGHT SCUM!!

SCUM ARE NOT GOING TO HELP US BY BUSSING THEIR TEAMMATES

THIS IS SOMETHING TOWN WILL HAVE TO DO ON THEIR OWN.

READ THE ABOVE POSTS

BURN IT INTO YOUR MIND

THESE ARE ANSUZ'S SCUMMATES

^ this post. look at those 2 posts that I quoted.

ap is not going to try to pl me and I am pretty sure at this point rancid knows I am not scum. those 2 posts are scumclaims.

they are not a part of the uninformed majority.

to me it does not get any clearer than this. if all of the players had not played the way that they did there would be no way any1 could piece this together. and this is what I meant by timing; ap going after sg in the way that he did looked desperate. I think he thought that since I had said I was ignoring her I would not care.

<--- this is why I don't always say what I really think of a player or share meta cos if I had shared what I really thought of sg ap would not have touched her with a 10 foot pole.

sg has been my strongest townread from the get go and I have waiting for scum to jump on her. and big bird did.

I know I am right cos I see how the scumteam are responding; they have sort of given up. and no big bird openly talking about him being scum and me catching him is not playing against his wc, ap is playing the too scummy to be scum and "scum would never do that" card cos town usually falls for it every single time. yo know the saying on this site is "every time some1 says scum would never do that a scummer receives a scummy".

I hope this helps. I am not normally this disclosive cos it tells scum how I scumhunt and they can refine their meta and shape their play around mine. <--- this has happened to me a lot on the other sites that I play on.

I know it looks too good to be true, trust me I know! but I am used to doing it is just only the second or third time I have done it on this site. but if nacho was not scum he would be telling you that he has seen me do this before.

scumteam is ansuz, pfr and rancid.

toss out everything you think you know about the gamestate and suspend disbelief and trust me on this. it is best if you do your own scum hunting to see for yourself, just don't get sucked into their web of lies and deceit.

dare to believe. dare to be fierce and kick scum's ass so we can brag about how we just pwned the shit out of some of the best players on the site and I do mean "we". I could never have here by myself you guys have helped so so much by being very town and fucking with scum on your own!

so lets win this shall we?

...so if you're trying to sell a case on her seeing things that you aren't, it's a case you're selling to the wrong crowd.

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you think my 270 was useless? Did you click the spoiler?

[Nachomamma8]

Andrius:

I get a good sense of town-Andrius from his posting, in part because his last performance as scum lacked all of the natural drive and passion that this game has. And, I know I'm biased to read him as town because this is probably the one chance I will get to play with him again and it would be a dark disappointment if he just happened to be scum, but that fear aside, still reading him as town.

I lightly townread him for his townread on Iecerint: although my townread on Iecerint stems from different reasons (most of them I can't explain now but will attempting to do so as I continue to read), I feel Iecerint's early take on the game was pretty town and Andrius picking up on that and pushing that is more likely to come from a town mindset than not.

The meat of my townread on Andrius, however, comes from three events:

1) Reaction to Pine's Fake Day Cop Claim:

First of all, if ABR is scum (seems a strong choice at the moment), shutting down a fake guilty on your scumbuddy immediately is a fairly risky move if the claim is real and I don't think Andy is confident enough of a scum player in order to step up and defend a scumbuddy in that matter. Second of all, the way that he approached it seemed a pretty natural way to sort out the situation as opposed to scum deciding how to react to the situation (and I don't think this is something they pre-coordinated in the scum QT): his initial reaction was to call the claim "highly improbable", then did some more reading into it and became confident when he noticed Pine's "let's make this interesting" tone. In these sorts of situations, I think that the conservative scum approach is to step back and wait and see how the general town reacts to it (does town fall for it and create an town on town horrorfest/does town fall for it and wagon scum on bullshit?) regardless of partner's alignment, and Andy, if anything, is a conservative scum player. This point is strongest thanks to my knowledge of Andrius's meta: if you are not the type of player who likes meta, read on.

2) His interaction with farside:
I thought that his interaction with farside does well to demonstrate him trying to sort out things as well as a frustration when he's not understood. In particular, clarification offered in #511 was good simply because of how genuine it comes across: I don't think it'd be possible to break down and clarify "trying to figure things out" more than Andy did at that point. His explanation of his response to the Pine claim and how that affected his Iecerint read makes sense as well, considering switching that read as scum would be a risky move (and a weird one, lots of people had already engaged him on the Iecerint read and turning on a townread out of the blue alienates you no reason), but switching that read as town makes a lot of sense thanks to his own reaction to the fakeclaim.

3) Opposing the Victor Lynch
I find the Victor lynch lazy as hell. Yes, he's been useless, but lynching him when we've already had discussion of several good scum suspects that haven't towned up whatsoever is lazy and is scum taking the path for least resistance. Andrius expressing dissent with this option is 1) really really good if Victor is town because who would ignore a mislynch that easy? And 2) Good even if Victor is scum because at the time he defended him, it looked like lynch was going through and he would be burning a lot of towncred to defend dead weight, which is another unlikely move.

Re: Iecerint: I feel your earlier townread on Iecerint is better than your recent scumread on him. I feel Iec, while a good player certainly, has a tendency to spend too much time focusing on possibilities than he does actually taking action and pushing (his self-evaluation of "listing all of the possibilities and wallowing in inaction" is a pretty spot-on evaluation of his game's weakness). I don't feel that his response to Pine was scummy as a result: maybe it would be scummy for less analytical players or players more prone to knee-jerk reactions like you or I, but not really for him. I also disagree that chaining together mislynches in the case of a fake guilty is scummy: if town decide to be dumb for no reason and push through a fakeclaim guilty on an innocent, as you noted, there's no scum action needed to get those two mislynches, thus giving scum no motive to chain them together. You could argue maybe he was just trying to guarantee both lynches went through, but if he wanted to accomplish that purpose, I think he would be giving more reasons why he believe Pine's claim as opposed to listing out the consequences.

I can't really comment on FT, considering the case of FT is mostly a lack of presence and I haven't read up on FT as much as I would have liked to.

[Nachomamma8]

I fail to see how 123 shows an "emotional investment in scumhunting". Even when she delves into a meta-iso in 159 and makes a one-off comment about the iso. It shows she put in slight effort, finding a comment 50 posts down, but that's about it. Effort is not a towntell and I fail to see how that can't be faked.

Emotional investment is demonstrated in the exchange with Konowa starting at #123, not in #123 itself. Language and orly owl in #139 at least shows confidence and a pretty strong belief that she's in the right. #160 makes some pretty strong assertions and similar comments for page 7, #167 explains not only why she finds Konowa's quickly changing reasons are scummy (it looks like he's providing justification for a conclusion he's already reached), why she's railing as hard as she was against him (she feels he's uncomfortable with engaging people which is why he's sniping farside from the sidelines instead of actually engaging her). To me, emotional investment in a case is a developed thought process, passion enough to come through posting, and genuineness. To me, the exchange shows all of these: why do you disagree?

The first point is TTH trying to attack Konowa from farside's POV. She's not trying to understand Konowa at all. The second point is TTH saying "you have biases and so you interpreted this post wrong". Which is not a strong point?

Why do you say this is TTH trying to attack Konowa from farside's POV? The bias point, which Konowa acknowledged and brought up himself (so it's not presumed, it's acknowledged), points out that a lot of Konowa's push is irrational because he was frustrated with farside's behavior in an earlier game. As far as understanding where Konowa is coming from, TTH does that when she figures out that Konowa's main problem was the closemindedness and frankness of farside's response to FT, TTH points out that she's not being a dick for no reason and there's a progression to the hostility.

If what you're trying to say is that you feel like TTH is coming down overly hard on Konowa as opposed to farside, then yeah, she's doing that, but she's writing a case on Konowa, so that's sort of to be expected.

I don't understand why I have to pick a side in the argument if the way they are both approaching it is town: just because I disagree with their push doesn't mean I think it's bad and it doesn't mean I think it makes them scum. I just think it's wrong, my prince.

[Nachomamma8]

I've come to expect dumb wagonhopping from ABR, but tell me, 4Tuppence, why Victor is the best lynch here. Exactly why do you believe he is scum? What will his scumflip tell you? Was there anything going through your head when you voted him other than "God, I hope I'm not lynched today."?

Yes, there was more to the vote than hoping I'm not lynched (though obviously that's a factor). Victor is probably scum based on process of elimination. I also disagree with Nacho that it's a "lazy" lynch. For me, it's based on townreads which weren't lazy at all. And Victor's "scumflip" would tell us quite a lot, in terms how/when people vote for Victor, especially in relation to the wagon on me, or potential counter-wagons on others. We don't need Victor's reads for that sort of information, and ultimately that's the kind of information I'm interested in.

If you have strong townreads on 10 players, you have three scumspects. I feel you'd get a much better idea of if your perceptions would be correct if you pushed the stronger scumreads and see if they towned in response: pushing Victor tells me that you have the entire game figured out and I know you're not that bad/that blinded by arrogance to make that type of a push.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't really comment on FT, considering the case of FT is mostly a lack of presence and I haven't read up on FT as much as I would have liked to.

Seriously? You've played with me before and should know that's not a scum-tell for me. Plus, I don't actually lack presence this game; I was on vacation until two days ago and didn't have time to post. And I value concision and don't feel like cluttering up the thread with meaningless bullshit like half the players here.

Clarification: I didn't say or mean to imply I was scumreading you, I said I didn't feel informed enough to give an opinion on you since I'm still behind in the game.

[Nachomamma8]

Iecerint... is a much harder player for me to analyze because we have radically different playstyles/perceptions of things. I think a major marker of Iec-scum in my personal experience is that the ratio of doing stuff to the ratio of analysis tends to become much more impressive as scum when he's town: Iecerint town behavior early game tends to be putting all the pieces on the table in front of him, general assembly happens much more aggressively late game. His early entrance this game felt exactly like Zodiac Mafia's early entrance which I hate to say because I know there's not really a strong reason for it, but it dictates a lot of my earlygame read on him, so worth bringing up anyways. For me, the two moments that most poignantly defined Iec-town for me happened during his ABR and his Andrius exchanges: in his ABR exchange, he rails against ABR hard for not reading his votepost on Andy closely and not actually reading what he's saying despite "sheeping him": I have trouble believing Iecerint would care half as much as to specific reasons why someone is sheeping him, but it makes a lot of sense for town!Iecerint with suspicions on ABR to be picking up on that. I liked his exchange with Andrius because I thought that he chose a strange time to back off if scum/the way he went about explaining/attacking/pushing the read and then backing off again seemed very genuine to me.

[Nachomamma8]

If you have strong townreads on 10 players, you have three scumspects. I feel you'd get a much better idea of if your perceptions would be correct if you pushed the stronger scumreads and see if they towned in response: pushing Victor tells me that you have the entire game figured out and I know you're not that bad/that blinded by arrogance to make that type of a push.

I don't have 10 townreads but I do have enough to justify a lynch: Iece, pine, ABR, Pere, far, you, and Gilgamesh. I have some doubts about Southern but they were also a strong townread earlier. For the record, I pushed Andrius most of the game, so it's not like I've pushed Victor all game. I pushed my strongest scumread first (before I solidified townreads on the above). So the only alternative to Victor is Who or Titus. Who probably isn't getting lynched though I'm willing to jump on that. And Titus is not much different than Victor (both haven't done shit).

What do you think of my towncase on Andrius?
Why are my concerns with ABR incorrect?
Didn't Titus replace Konowa who was pretty town?

[Nachomamma8]

All Is Who:

I didn't like #188 because I have no idea how he formed the reads he did based on the posts he did except for that Pine was town and ABR was scum because Pine brought up a good point about ABR's conciliatory nature, but that was it.

He's voting an IC. His reaction to pine was weird. I haven't seen anything incredibly town from him.

Is the reason for voting Iecerint, which is additionally weak.

The major points of their scumcase on ABR are:
1) Buddying, which Pine talked about at the beginning of the game.
2) The threat post, which I talked about at the beginning of the game.
3) Not enough reasoning on his quick position changes? Which seem to be an ABR staple?
4) Not interacting with the hydra as a whole.

I find this a surprisingly bad case, considering how scummy in general ABR's been this game? It didn't seem like either of them built up to the ABR case at all before dropping that huge one, which is another red flag/gigantic question mark (feels like they were just trying to ram through the lynch for the lynch's sake). It's also a major problem that this is all the content that this hydra has provided to the game thus far.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like his entrance, or 186, or 190, or any of his posts. His comments feel like someone trying to post shit but not actually trying to figure shit out. Voting me is like going after the easiest target you can grab onto (besides folks who've posted nothing), especially with shitty reasoning like "underwhelming presence." I also don't like how he calls Nacho or Iece "still" town (admittedly this ain't slam-dunk evidence or anything like that but I think saying "still town" comes from a scum mindset even if town do it too; it's like unconsciously expressing that they won't always be town).

Voting you as an easy target early game is not a scumtell for me in any sense whatsoever: if it is early game and you fall behind in RVS, you get voted by a town playing well. That is how scum is caught early. I don't think "underwhelming presence" is a bad reason for voting early game, or in general, and I find it strange you criticized this reason early-game when it's the reason you're trying to lynch Victor now. "Still town" means that the read has a possibility for change in the future: your scum-side evaluation seems too twisted and complicated for me to give it any credit.

I'd much rather lynch Andrius or one of the folks opposing his lynch.

When and why did the Andrius scumread become strong enough for you to view defending him as suspect?

Also, Andrius isn't burnt out - he had a break, right? - so his level of investment isn't very telling.

More telling is who he votes for, when, and why. That stuff suggests he's scum.

Could you expound on this a bit? I know the vote on you earlier, but I need more than that.

[Nachomamma8]

Basically, I feel like players who take a break (at least in my case I've felt this way) tend to become more passionate on their first game back, regardless of alignment, so that's not really giving me town in his case (absent a break from mafia I'd agree with you).

In general, yes. If ABR had took a long break from mafia and then came back early game posting like a kitten, I'd agree that it was probably because of break and not because of alignment issues. In this game, Andy has been playing to pretty much his old town meta, which he had trouble emulating when he was active and at his peak. I don't think he learned to fake his town meta by taking a break.

Your point about opposing the Victor lynch also isn't compelling, since Victor wasn't a viable lynch at that point (only me and ABR were on it), while the lynch on me was much more likely. What's the scum motive for supporting a counter-wagon (Victor) when you already have a good chance of getting a mislynch (on me)?

This point is weaker than I thought it was thanks to a lack of context that I got recently, apologies.
There is scum motivation in allowing a lazy wagon near deadline to spring up, even if it derails a mislynch: if he is scum trying to mislynch town-you and deadline wagon pops up on a townie, he can continue pushing you tomorrow and will very likely be able to get you mislynched tomorrow after you've burned towncred a bit more by leading a deadline counterwagon on a townie. Pulling the "no, we're not lynching today, this is lazy as hell" card is still a ballsy move in protecting a scumbuddy thanks to risk/reward (he probably wasn't gonna get lynched anyways/if he continues playing like that, won't survive very long). Frustration spurned from "if you think I'm not reading things right, you're a bad reader" is generally town frustration since it doesn't make sense to get frustrated at that sort of thing when scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I think you're probably right about ABR, though.

Vote: All is Who

[Nachomamma8]

I'm gonna take a break from mafia for an hour or so, but if when I come back you could give me a more clearer picture of why you find Andy as scummy as you do and maybe get that vote off Victor and onto All is Who, I'd be pretty grateful.

In the meantime...

Spoiler: smut

As he held her body as close to his as he could possibly manage, his treacherous mind couldn't help but taunt him by bringing the sounds of her ticking clock into the forefront of his mind, the tick and tock of every second passing a toxin to his mind and his heart. Time apart from her was pain, and with every moment that passed, he knew that he was closer to feeling that pain yet again. He silently reprimanded himself for getting lost in a future that wasn't yet there: he would deal with the separation when it happened. For now, the only thing he cared about was her and

Brown Sugar

playing in the background.

[Nachomamma8]

197 is where I started solidifying that read; Andrius continues voting me but this time it's for voting him... plus he also acknowledges I'm V/LA. At this point, he doesn't seem engaged with the game; his reason to vote me sucks and he's not looking at anyone else.

You were a suspect of his. This is a valid suspicion because farside (another townread of yours) also suspected him at that point in time. When you return, all you say is that his posts suck and the still tell (which isn't really a slam dunk awesome tel), then leave again. Why should he have unvoted at this point?

[Nachomamma8]

Then notice how he "suspects" ABR, but keeps his vote on me. He just adds fire to the mounting suspicion on ABR but doesn't engage that read. He just puts it out there as support for a potential wagon. Then he "suspects" Pere, but of course keeps his vote on me.

You have both of these players as town, correct? Why is it scummy for Andrius not to vote these players?
I don't think Andrius not wandering far from who he voted originally is scummy: gamestate changed dramatically yes, but I don't think anything too radical has happened until recently where you somehow shouldn't be a suspect anymore.

[Nachomamma8]

Also his reason for suspecting Pere: Pere says he doesn't have any reads. No one else comments on that (as far as I remember) and for good reason. I think any townie can relate to that feeling so why is that suspect? It's not.

He explains why past experience makes it a special kind of tell for him: you didn't buy that?

[Nachomamma8]

There isn't any depth or independence of thought, which is what I expect from townies.

What about his Iec read?

[Nachomamma8]

Real break now: thank you for the updated Andrius case, helps me see things a bit better.

[Nachomamma8]

@Mod

: I voted for All is Who in post #640.

---

Thanks. Fixed it.

[Nachomamma8]

yep i definitely agree with that

[Nachomamma8]

hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

[Nachomamma8]

I don't care about other players ignoring me, Iecerint.

[Nachomamma8]

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hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

I am not ignoring you

how many times have you sought out interaction with me after saying i was town?

[Nachomamma8]

The intention of my post was mainly to call attention to the fact that you were on the outs for most of yesterday.

I know I was on the outs most of yesterday: I'm not disputing that fact and can't really do anything about it except seize the moment and post now, which is what I'm doing. My play has moved past "lurking Nacho = scum Nacho" for some time now so activity shouldn't be relevant for that reason, but if it is, feel free to vote me for it.

It's pretty dumb to complain about not being the center of attention while not being an active player.

I don't expect to be the center of attention unless I'm an active player. I expect certain players to interact with me and talk with me regardless of my activity level (in fact, I'd expect mollie to talk about me MORE when my activity level goes down). As mollie noted earlier in the game, me ignoring her as scum is a common occurrence because I hate interacting with her as scum because she can read me when she interacts with me. She doesn't like interacting with me as scum because I can read her when she interacts with me. Thus, when she and she alone doesn't interact with me enough during a game day, a red flag is raised. Based on my experience with her, I feel she didn't interact enough with me yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

I am not ignoring you

how many times have you sought out interaction with me after saying i was town?

This is the question that I want answered the most.

[Nachomamma8]

i am sensitive iecerint
i began to cowrite an erotic novel with a woman and then i reached for an embrace but all i got was cold and lifeless air

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Southern Gothic

[Nachomamma8]

That's Iecerint's reason for you not interacting with me.
Generally when I lurk, you interact with me more!

[Nachomamma8]

do you think you've been very town in this exchange we've had together?

[Nachomamma8]

yeah ok you're just scum

[Nachomamma8]

this has been the single most awkward interaction i've had with another player in my life

[Nachomamma8]

i love you mollie!

[Nachomamma8]

mollie if i ever interacted with you in the way you did with me just now you would have had me lynched 20 pages ago

[Nachomamma8]

also we are a tracker and pine went nowhere last night.

flavor name + action flavor, please

[Nachomamma8]

flavor, my love!

[Nachomamma8]

your flavor name is food the tracker?

[Nachomamma8]

and the action flavor that shadowmod gave you with his result simply read "food"?

[Nachomamma8]

<3

[Nachomamma8]

yeah i wasn't too convinced by "food the tracker" either

[Nachomamma8]

and the action flavor that shadowmod gave you with his result simply read "food"?

no.

SHE said that pine didn't go anywhere. which is why I was asking pine about his 180 on reads.

she? i didn't know!

[Nachomamma8]

Did you miss the "food the tracker" claim?

[Nachomamma8]

Because that would be a shame.

[Nachomamma8]

Awww, I like you too Iecerint!

[Nachomamma8]

Hi TTH!

[Nachomamma8]

Did you miss the "food the tracker" claim?

Because that would be a shame.

That was a lazy claim. Lazy for scum, if they wanted to use that to avoid the lynch or drive the mislynch.

It makes no sense for town, since Pine is not currently suspect.

Based on this, you'll have to elaborate on motivations for the claim and the manner in which it was made.

If you want to talk SouthGothic day1 play, that's a different story.

So you're just going to ignore the claim and instead hop and skip on your merry way?

[Nachomamma8]

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Scum motivation for early tracker claim is to get me to back off her. I have a 100% accuracy in lynching Mollie whenever I decide to lynch her and we've played together in quite a few games, so yeah her response needs to be a bit strong to pull me off.

[Nachomamma8]

She claimed her flavor name as food probably because she wasn't expecting me to ask for her flavor and the two flipped town both have a flavor name of "food". She claimed to investigate Pine because he dropped several VT tells and it was safe.

[Nachomamma8]

We know power roles have flavor names thanks to Iecerint and general endorsement of his plan.

[Nachomamma8]

So, there you go! Scum motivation!
What's the town motivation, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

We know power roles have flavor names thanks to Iecerint and general endorsement of his plan.

The flavor name is Food Tracker. Where's the disconnect here?

Mollie confirmed your flavor name as food the tracker.

[Nachomamma8]

What's your read on Victor?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, what's your read on Who?

[Nachomamma8]

Your special tells are oddly the exact opposite of Mollie's, interesting.

[Nachomamma8]

The flavor name is Food Tracker. Where's the disconnect here?

Mollie confirmed your flavor name as food the tracker.

So the word "the" is the disconnect?

If you're asking for the action flavor (I have a feeling you are), it has to do with using our bloodhound adorably named Snuggy to follow people.

Food the tracker was the original claim, yeah.
I can see Food Tracker being a thing more realistically, but the claim target being odd and original claim being weird as shit is still :\

[Nachomamma8]

I also got town VT from that, for the record. >______>

All of you are apparently smarter than I am, then.

I'm currently working from townreads on both Victor and Who, Nacho.

Why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

I asked if that was her flavor name. She confirmed.

[Nachomamma8]

Why isn't she posting right now?

[Nachomamma8]

Also sorry for multiple questions, main thing I need is still Victor/Who reads.

[Nachomamma8]

Dogs famous for tracking humans tracking werewolves instead?

[Nachomamma8]

Victor, gun to your head: Mollie-slot scum or town?

[Nachomamma8]

Gun to head - null.

I haven't seen anything particularly town, but I don't see what your getting at.

You don't need to see what I'm getting at to have an opinion.

[Nachomamma8]

Dogs famous for tracking humans tracking werewolves instead?

Why isn't she posting right now?

It appears rationality has gone out the window and the only thing that seems to matter here is something about 100% accuracy and mollie looked at you funny.

You asked me for my read, I gave my first impression because I'll have to find a few hours to do a write up. So what do you have to say about either of those reads?

Didn't Mollie explain our dynamic to you already? What did she say about it?

[Nachomamma8]

I brought those reads up because they aren't well defined in my mind and I'd like to see you to bring clarity to them. I hate hate hate Victor's "oh they're just null!" read on you + abr push earlier in the day so he's currently looking like a scumread as well.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't need to see what I'm getting at to have an opinion.

But other than the premature claim, I don't see where your getting the rest of your case (Mollie not responding, the claim flavour being scummy) and the speed of the wagon gives me a bad feeling, but that in itself isn't really enough to find SG town.

Do you think Iecerint is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

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I'm saying that on this site, I have not mislynched her as town once despite an extensive history. I don't have this record with anyone else because I'm a shitty player who has been on the site a long time, so when the opportunity arises, hell yeah I gotta bring it up.

[Nachomamma8]

The reason I was frustrated is that you kind of just shat on the Mollie-me interactions which you should understand a bit better as a hydra partner or even as someone who plays with people you're close with in general.

[Nachomamma8]

@Victor: Probably around 20 I think?

[Nachomamma8]

Maybe more!

[Nachomamma8]

Victor, why do you think Iec is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

The reason I was frustrated is that you kind of just shat on the Mollie-me interactions which you should understand a bit better as a hydra partner or even as someone who plays with people you're close with in general.

Did I shit on something? I didn't mean to, I suppose I should go change pants. :S

Does closeness with someone necessarily make you better at reading them? I've never heard from anyone that it does.

It usually does! It's certainly easier to figure out when someone's acting strange when you're intimately familiar with their normal.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, why did mollie stop posting? I think I missed that bit.

[Nachomamma8]

No, the cross-examination

Cross-examination?
You think Iecerint might be scum?

[Nachomamma8]

If you're taking anything I'm saying as insulting, then I'm misstating it because my point is that you're nitpicking if you're expecting me to know what mollie is currently doing away from her computer or making a point that use of a bloodhound doesn't fit with the finer points of lycanthropy.

Well, I ask if you know why mollie is away from her computer because a reason that would mesh with her being town would be her being pissed at me for misreading her. If this happened, I'd expect she would have probably texted you by now and complained to you about the push on her, based on my experiences with her.

My bloodhound point is because dogs who hunt humans actually hunting wolves doesn't actually making sense but Andy thought it did. Your flavor isn't why I think your slot is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

No, the cross-examination

Cross-examination?
You think Iecerint might be scum?

I certainly do.

What do you think of his crumbing strategy yesterday + having a confirmed town today? Why didn't you track him?

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of his crumbing strategy yesterday + having a confirmed town today? Why didn't you track him?

Since he was drawing a few scumreads, I didn't expect he would be the one who would do the kill even if he were scum.
I think the crumbing strategy and the claimed confirm town are null as there's no way to prove that it's real.

But he claimed PR, which meant there was a good possibility you would confirm him./verify claim down the road.

[Nachomamma8]

Or even catch him or someone else in a lie: he is scum roleblocker, you follow him onto someone town, he claims he was investigating someone.
He goes nowhere, you catch him in a lie.

[Nachomamma8]

@TTH: It's also surprising you call an early claim like that null: do you generally have that approach for early claims if they can't be proven immediately after?

[Nachomamma8]

Is that the problem?

[Nachomamma8]

The other two roles also weren't town aligned.

[Nachomamma8]

Farside:

My two other scumreads are Victor and Who, hence asking Southern Gothic about them.

[Nachomamma8]

ABR has become an extremely powerful townread over the course of this day, and I definitely need to hear from Peregrine again although my initial response to his defense was definitely town.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: can you tell me who else your scum reading?
I had Andy, victor and titus at one point.
I'll expand further after.

Sorry! I wanted to see if I could force scum to interact with buddies a little bit and wasn't quite ready to make it obvious I was doing so.

[Nachomamma8]

Food is town from what I understand.
The issue I note with the claim is tracker. Not food part.

The reason I took issue with the food part is because I asked mollie to flavor claim under duress and she answered that her flavor was "food", which is just the name of the towngroup this game and not something I'd expect from someone who loves flavor as much as Shadow does.

[Nachomamma8]

I also hoped he didn't give flavor with action role PMs?
But Iec hasn't said that he didn't get action flavor so no luck there.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you still suspect Andy today?

[Nachomamma8]

The issue I note with the claim is tracker.

This meshes well with Iec + Andrius experience, which bodes well for an SG lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like SG's full-claim out of nowhere. I really don't. I don't see any town-sided motivation for doing so.
I'm stuck looking quizzically at farside's, but I admit that may just be nothing. Having trouble discerning her motive, but that's not as important (if at all, at present).

From where I'm sitting, it just kind of looks like all the pieces came crashing together in a pretty fantastic way.

[Nachomamma8]

And farside's claim seems infinitely townier than SG's.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean I'm trying not to get carried away but I'm floating as we speak :/

[Nachomamma8]

Who do you think I'm not looking at hard enough?

[Nachomamma8]

I also hoped he didn't give flavor with action role PMs?
But Iec hasn't said that he didn't get action flavor so no luck there.

My rolename AND my action have independent flavor. They are both "flavorful" (e.g., it's not "Food Cop" with an "Investigate" ability).

This is helpful.

Who do you think I'm not looking at hard enough?

We should definitely not rush into this one. I'm not sure, but we need to make sure certain people don't fall under the radar again.
I know I needed to read on Konowaslot, but that's dead now.

I don't mind taking my time with the lynch I guess, but my read on mollie has reached critical mass at this point and I don't think there's much coming back from this. Will still give time to delay spending time with you, but.

Konowa-slot is not dead, Konowa slot is now Titus. Let me know what you think when you're done reading through.

Who do you think I'm not looking at hard enough?

Who.
I'm not sure if I'm just picking out a thing rather than a person, but I also need to re-evaluate Titus.

Who is one of my three scumspects.
Unless you think that's a bad thing?

And farside's claim seems infinitely townier than SG's.

Am I just missing her claim? I can't find it. AFAICT she just claimed concordance (unnecessarily I think, but I assume she has her reasons) with Andy and re: flavor. Is that what you're referring to?

Yeah, and the implications of that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd be OK with a Victor claim thanks to his response to Iecerint, actually.

[Nachomamma8]

So many claims to process...

Do you have an opinion based on what's been put forth in thread so far, or...?

[Nachomamma8]

I have no issue with SG's claim beyond the hypertechnical "the" issue. My pm is formatted Food + Something so FoodTracker makes sense to me.

Food + [classic], as explained in Iecerint's post?
Or Food + something you wouldn't find on the wiki?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm also surprised you didn't comment at all on mollie's reaction to the push on her.
You didn't find it odd at all...?

[Nachomamma8]

pine your farside read is horrible

[Nachomamma8]

i wanna watch scrubs now
but switch farside with titus in your considerations for scumteams and the world will be a better place

also, is all is who still a strong townread for you? i'm more opening to listening to the why than i was before.

[Nachomamma8]

I have no issue with SG's claim beyond the hypertechnical "the" issue. My pm is formatted Food + Something so FoodTracker makes sense to me.

Food + [classic], as explained in Iecerint's post?
Or Food + something you wouldn't find on the wiki?

Food + Not Wiki

Mollie's claimed role is Food + Wiki.
Every other softed's role is Food + NotWiki.

What do you think of that?

[Nachomamma8]

Nothing. I doubt the mod gives a fakeclaim that stands out.

I doubt that was a mod provided fakeclaim.

[Nachomamma8]

Farside, I think a good reason for Pine being town is Southern Gothic interactions: he dropped some VT tells early in the game, they end up claiming a "goes nowhere" track on him later in the game: that seems like scum taking a small risk on a correct guess on a townie as opposed to dragging a scumbuddy onto a sinking ship.

[Nachomamma8]

I need to know about that Who read eventually, but today is not the day.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Pine I swapped to phone posting but lets talk farside. You've played with her, right? How exactly does this match up with her scum meta?

[Nachomamma8]

And I guess I need a little explaining as to why what she's posting is scummy, exactly: right now all I see is a passionate and proactive player making a series of pushes that show serious scumhunting and not really much that shows opportunistic tendencies or trends towards survival or trends towards protecting scumbuddies or acting weird around them.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't have a solid handle on her scum meta, she's too adaptable. It doesn't, however, look like her Town meta

Why her play here is different from her town meta is good enough for me!

[Nachomamma8]

Andrius: if I die tonight, do NOT lynch Victor tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi guys! Last night, I poisoned Victor. He will die at the end of today. Tonight, I will loverize two players that we are not lynching or poisoning today which will give town an additional mislynch. Night 1, I made Andy a treestump so that he could carry on the town's will if he ever was to die.