Mini 466 - Game Over

[ryan]

2 votes and it's the "cutting block?" You mostly just "sit around?" Thanks for making the case easier on you. Active players don't sit around and wait, nor do they get defensive when a couple of votes are placed on them. Very interesting

[Sir Tornado]

But Amelia could have been following ST, possibly two scumbuddies that messed up when they were going to unvote.

Interesting theory.

But, what exactly do you mean by "scumbuddies that messed up when they were trying to unvote"? Elaborate please.

[ryan]

Isn't it possible that you and Amelia are scumbuddies (mafia partners) and messed up when you both unvoted and did it consecutively instead of maybe waiting? Seemed like you were leading Amelia to unvote. A possible strategy talked about in pregame?

[Sir Tornado]

Isn't it possible that you and Amelia are scumbuddies (mafia partners) and messed up when you both unvoted and did it consecutively instead of maybe waiting? Seemed like you were leading Amelia to unvote. A possible strategy talked about in pregame?

1) Why would I need to "lead" someone so early on in the game? This was on the second page. If I were mafia, I would just have had to tell them to unvote at such and such time. The leading theory, can be accepted when you are deep in the middle of the game, but on second page?

2) What exactly would be gained from the whole exercise?

[ryan]

ST, you can lead at ANY point in the game, it doesn't matter if it's a specific target on the first page or the last page, nothing is ever too early to lead in this game, you've played enough games to see that.

You guys might have messed up, I've said that already. Slip ups happen in this game continually and that's how we find you mafia scum.

[AmeliaLi]

2 votes and it's the "cutting block?" You mostly just "sit around?" Thanks for making the case easier on you. Active players don't sit around and wait, nor do they get defensive when a couple of votes are placed on them. Very interesting

Okay Maybe not the cutting block with two votes, but most of the time I like to read what other people are doing and such and be quiet, though taht is been proven ineffective both in this game and the other one. And about the defensive part.... well, its hard not to be defensive playing this game.

[ryan]

AmeliaLi: You can't sit around this game and not be accused of a) lurking b) not participating. Ask some questions of your fellow players but sitting around doesn't help us find scum. If you are pro town, finding scum should be your #1 goal NOT reading other people's quotes and being quiet. Those two things will get you on the vote list real quickly.

[AmeliaLi]

AmeliaLi: You can't sit around this game and not be accused of a) lurking b) not participating. Ask some questions of your fellow players but sitting around doesn't help us find scum. If you are pro town, finding scum should be your #1 goal NOT reading other people's quotes and being quiet. Those two things will get you on the vote list real quickly.

Oh well. Lets not make this into an argument. Thank you for your input.

[ryan]

Oh I wasn't arguing with ya, I was just stating my opinion on what happens to non participators in this game. If you are a townie, you'd be hunting scum, finding ways to draw them out, asking the right questions. Ya know?

[AmeliaLi]

Trust me, I know. ho hum.... It would help if other people posted more often.

[Sir Tornado]

Ryan, you still haven't answered my question: Exactly what would be gained from the whole exercise of voting randomly and then unvoting the random votes together? I mean, that is a terribly bad move for the mafia, because it creates a connection between the two players, and if one of them is found scum, the other is suspected because of this. It's one of those things where you don't achieve anything, but can later prove to be costly. It's plain foolish to do this by early planning if you are scum.

Personally, I don't think the unvoting achieved anything specific. No one was on a bandwagon at that time. I don't know why AmeliaLi unvoted, but I prefer to unvote by random votes quickly in almost all the games I play.

[Dral]

unvote: klopyrev

I'll agree with the joke theory. But this is no time for jokes! We are trying to lynch someone!
Since we have so very little to go on, I say we pressure the people who are inactive.

Vote: Nanosauromo

[MightyFireball]

Oh dear. More WIFOM has emerged. Sir Tornado, statements like "if you are scum" almost always lead to WIFOM arguments and are bad for the town. Refraining from this would be appreciated. Thanks. However, I do agree with you that ryan is wrong in thinking that a consecutive unvote is scummy. It's probably more something that was coincidental as opposed to coordinated.

[ryan]

Tornado: Let's take a breath........in.........now out. You seem to be giving lots of reasons why unvoting next to eachother would be "bad for the mafia" I never said you guys did I said you "could have messed up" I presented theories and you jumped on them from the "mafia point of view" I also presented that mafia when pressured can mess up early in games, did we catch you doing this already?

[MightyFireball]

Hmmm... I never really thought of it that way. I suppose that is possible. Good thinking, ryan.

[AmeliaLi]

It was a total and utter coincidence! I saw him unvote and was thinking, hm, that's a good idea! Geesh!

[ryan]

Woah AmeliaLi. Theories were presented for the rest of the game members to look at for themselves. This is twice my theories have struck a nerve, interesting.

[Sir Tornado]

Tornado: Let's take a breath........in.........now out. You seem to be giving lots of reasons why unvoting next to eachother would be "bad for the mafia" I never said you guys did I said you "could have messed up" I presented theories and you jumped on them from the "mafia point of view" I also presented that mafia when pressured can mess up early in games, did we catch you doing this already?

But, you still haven't answered my question: What could be achieved by the whole thing of unvoting together?

[klopyrev]

I still don't understand the explanation of why voting for yourself is scummy. Can someone explain it to me again? Anyway, I have several more questions: What is leading? What is WIFOM? And to contribute to the discussion. Why is it that people who are inactive blaimed? If you are town and are sitting around watching the action, instead of contributing, wouldn't you be able to understand the behaviour of everyone else. In another game I'm playing, I made 2 very stupid posts since the beginning of the game and have been trying to defend myself ever since. If I stayed quite, I could have found out more about other people. Also, how is trying to defend yourself too much a scummy thing? I'm not very experienced, but as a town, I don't want to be lynched in the beginning of the game. That would mean the end of the game for me, since I can't contribute anymore. I would be bored not playing a game. Hmm... anyway, no one has voted for both curiouskarmadog and Lowell, I'll vote for the lexographically least.

vote curiouskarmadog

[klopyrev]

Oh, one more question. Why does everyone have a caption underneath their name that says things like: Mafiascum, Townsperson, Goon? Are these random?

[curiouskarmadog]

I still don't understand the explanation of why voting for yourself is scummy. Can someone explain it to me again? Anyway, I have several more questions: What is leading? What is WIFOM? And to contribute to the discussion. Why is it that people who are inactive blaimed? If you are town and are sitting around watching the action, instead of contributing, wouldn't you be able to understand the behaviour of everyone else. In another game I'm playing, I made 2 very stupid posts since the beginning of the game and have been trying to defend myself ever since. If I stayed quite, I could have found out more about other people. Also, how is trying to defend yourself too much a scummy thing? I'm not very experienced, but as a town, I don't want to be lynched in the beginning of the game. That would mean the end of the game for me, since I can't contribute anymore. I would be bored not playing a game. Hmm... anyway, no one has voted for both curiouskarmadog and Lowell, I'll vote for the lexographically least.

vote curiouskarmadog

please go back an reread post 45

[ryan]

Tornado: Let's take a breath........in.........now out. You seem to be giving lots of reasons why unvoting next to eachother would be "bad for the mafia" I never said you guys did I said you "could have messed up" I presented theories and you jumped on them from the "mafia point of view" I also presented that mafia when pressured can mess up early in games, did we catch you doing this already?

But, you still haven't answered my question: What could be achieved by the whole thing of unvoting together?

Without getting annoyed, because you aren't reading my posts. I said I presented theories on what you two did, what you planned on doing is beyond me. Maybe by posting back to back you could say "well it was just random" which is what you are doing right now.

[ryan]

klopyrev: Scum try and sit back and not force the action because they are nervous about slipping up and giving out too much information on themselves. Inactive players don't help the town find scum, they aren't contributing and thus being anti town. Lurkers are of NO help to us in finding mafia, usually why they get so much pressure

[Jester]

Jester, you've left Lowell out of your list of inactives. He has said very little so far. The only meaningful thing he did was vote you.

True enough, good call. ::adds him to the list::

AmeliaLi: You can't sit around this game and not be accused of a) lurking b) not participating. Ask some questions of your fellow players but sitting around doesn't help us find scum. If you are pro town, finding scum should be your #1 goal NOT reading other people's quotes and being quiet. Those two things will get you on the vote list real quickly.

I agree with this completely. The four fastest ways to show up on my particular scum radar are to:
:arrow: say literally nothing (no posts at all);
:arrow: say nothing (post, but create posts with no game content in them);
:arrow: concentrate on the "guilty" instead of being specific about who might be guilty and who might not be guilty and why; and,
:arrow: to get into a defensive play mode and concentrate on defense to the exclusion of offense.

Generally, scum will do one of the last two things, but not both. Right now, Lowell, Nano, and klopyrev are doing the first; curiouskarmadog and Dral are doing the second; Indy's doing the third; and Amelia's doing the last.

On the flip-side, I really like ryan's and Fireball's styles of play and they strike me as the most townish so far, particularly ryan. Tornado and Numenorean, I have no concrete opinion about yet.

I still don't understand the explanation of why voting for yourself is scummy. Can someone explain it to me again?

Only the most hugely frustrated townie would ever vote for themselves. It's far too early for such frustration. Aside from that, voting for yourself is considered scum behavior because it creates a "you'll be sorry when I'm dead and you find out I was innocent" vibe that tends to turn townies on each other rather than concentrating on their duty of finding scum. It's simply not a helpful town tactic.

What is WIFOM?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me

As a technique for detecting scum, I think it's debateable. As a technique for detecting players who play this game based on probabilities and hunches rather than logic, I find it very useful.

And to contribute to the discussion. Why is it that people who are inactive blaimed? If you are town and are sitting around watching the action, instead of contributing, wouldn't you be able to understand the behaviour of everyone else. In another game I'm playing, I made 2 very stupid posts since the beginning of the game and have been trying to defend myself ever since. If I stayed quite, I could have found out more about other people.

You can't remain quiet and play this game effectively because it makes you suspicious by exception. To play this game and remain (relatively) unsuspicious, you need to air theories about who you find more scummy, who you find more townish, and at least a little bit as to why. Scum like to stay really quiet in the early game because late in the game, when there's a pile of bodies around, people will go back and review past posts to see who defended whom and who attacked whom. As a scum, it's in your best interests to go into the late game with as little of this kind of evidence around you as possible. This gives you a clean slate to create suspicion among the other late-game players and hopefully get them to turn on each other.

In addition, remaining quiet about what people are doing hurts the town as a whole. If you see something suspicious and scummy, if you point it out, yeah, you'll probably get yourself murdered eventually for pointing it out. But it will help the overall town win the game.

Oh, one more question. Why does everyone have a caption underneath their name that says things like: Mafiascum, Townsperson, Goon? Are these random?

They represent levels of experience with this game on this particular forum. You and are are "townspeople", indicating that we joined this forum recently.

[curiouskarmadog]

Unvote kloprev.

The more he talks the more I think he is just newbie town.

Although I appreciate Ryan’s scum hunt/conversation starters. I do think AmeliaLi and Sir Tornado’s unvotes were coincidence, but it is worth while to note it.

I agree with this completely. The four fastest ways to show up on my particular scum radar are to:
:arrow: say literally nothing (no posts at all);
:arrow: say nothing (post, but create posts with no game content in them);
:arrow: concentrate on the "guilty" instead of being specific about who might be guilty and who might not be guilty and why; and,
:arrow: to get into a defensive play mode and concentrate on defense to the exclusion of offense.

I also find that sometimes scum try to stir up the hornet’s nest early to see what might stick (i.e what the town will believe first to get a lynch early), under a guise of a scum hunting trip (like ryan). But, in this particular game, I think he might be doing it to actually stir up conversation to find bad logic or a mistake. I think his search so far has proved fruitless, but it might mean a lot more later in the game.

I do not agree with the defensive play mode theory. I think mafia and town alike get defensive when their head is on a block. If someone accuses you of doing something scummy, most people’s first reaction is to defend their actions…which will then have retorts, and retorts to retorts, and so on.

I have not noted anything out of the ordinary other than kloprev. I did not understand his line of thinking. He is the only one who has done something strange this is early in the game. But as stated before, I think it was newbie.

I agree with the “literally says nothing” comment though.

Vote Lowell

Correct me if I am wrong, but all he have are two posts from him (both votes) adding completely nothing to the search for scum. Everybody has got an opinion about something, what is yours?