Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[BillyTwilight]

Greetings all, good not to be replaced. Comments on events since I left:

I don't really like post #'s 890 and 896 by Shteven. The first gives me a vibe of "I don't know where this YB wagon will go, but if it becomes necessary for me to jump on it I want to reserve a seat." What I find really interesting about it is that Albert has the same kind of non-committal post in that section and YB attacks Albert for it without saying anything to Shteven. I agree with MBL's post #897 concerning Shteven's post and completely agree with MoS's post #899 and subsequent posts regarding YB's reaction to my analysis and others voting for him.

Guardian's post #901 screams at me. It looks very desperate; they are in it so far together that Guardian has to keep YB from being lynched in order not to follow him shortly thereafter.

YoS's posts look good to me.

Shteven's post #923 is bad, very over-defensive. If Glork had not already brought a full case against Shteven I could see this, but considering Glork has made it very clear that he wants a Shteven lynch his post #898 is just fine, and Shteven's reaction is overboard and not a sign of clear thinking.

I don't like the content of inHim's post #926, but the way its worded makes me feel that its a playstyle post, so to speak. Never played with inHim, so I can't meta him properly. Other's who have played with him, is this typical of his style as town? This goes for his other posts as well.

Don't like YB's post #929, its very reminiscent of his earlier call out against ~N9V~ when Guardian's wagon got rolling.

I like MBL's post #932, but come to a different conclusion about Guardian. MBL, what explicitly about Guardian makes you think SK? I read that and coupled with my suspicion of YB see it as scummy but not SK tells

per se

. As for making a post about Albert as per your request, I might get around to it; the post on YB took nearly 6 hours of on-again/off-again writing while at work, and I don't think I am willing to invest that much time into another analysis right now, but I might try to do a quick one. As for your comments about YB, I've never played with him in scumchat or otherwise, and I can't judge his play on "YB just being YB". That said, I especially don't like comparing scumchat games to forum games as meta information; the two environments are far too different to get accurate reads on a player, imo.

I don't like Shteven's post #937 either; again it feels like he is trying to force a defense for himself against an attack that is very minor, and trying to force suspicion of other players on bad reasoning. I have found Shteven's play to be far scummier since my analysis against YB, and am surprised that Glork hasn't used some of this to reload against Shteven in the past couple of days.

BM has gotten awfully lazy for a player who has been replaced once already and by the grace of the mod was allowed back into the game. It seems that he's been very quiet in this game, after the flurry of posts back when it started. I thought his excuse for not posting for a week or so was because of exams? I think maybe its time we get a prod for him with threat of permanent replacement. Same goes for Pless (or whatever) - actually, Pless just needs a straight up replacement immediately. There are some other players that this applies to as well, but I will have to have a closer look to see who they are.

TCS looks neutral to me now; some of his play earlier was bad, but I am beginning to think that TCS just had a slump of sorts from his play in Clue and here, maybe he got a little bored and careless with the game. Right now I have less suspicion of him than I have all game.

Don't really agree with MoS about Guardian being a bad play for the day. I think situations like this is where meta information can hurt; I feel Guardian's play has definitely been suspicious enough to warrant consideration. Completely agree with AE's post #973.

To sum up:

Haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my current vote on YB, and haven't seen enough of a case against another player to move my vote. Guardian still looks scummy and Shteven has moved much father up on the pS scale. TCS has moved down it. I think meta information is hurting this game. Nearly every player who has been under large suspicion has claimed that "I always seem scummy" and almost everyone here has let some bad play slide because of it. I don't think we should do away with any meta information entirely, but right now it feels like people are letting it have too much influence on their decision-making.

[Shteven]

Well, if it makes you feel any better billy, I never have, nor do I ever intend to claim that I always play scummy. I agree with AE's post, actting scummy is not a get out of jail free card, if you act scummy you should expect to be lynched for it.

I will reread the posts of mine you had issues with and reply to those below.

[Shteven]

@BillyTwilight
post 890 - Indiciated I'd be fine with a YB lynch or the guardian lynch which I left my vote on. Perhaps the indication is something you're supposed to keep to yourself, but I don't mind throwing it out there. It's day 1 and having two targets seems like a pretty narrow list to me. Beats the 4-6 I had mentioned way back around page 6.

post 896 - Showed my distaste for the "I'm always scummy" playstyle. Almost all of albert's post sound scummy to me, and I don't care for it. It's the very same thing you listed in your summary paragraph:

. Nearly every player who has been under large suspicion has claimed that "I always seem scummy" and almost everyone here has let some bad play slide because of it.

I'm trying to call Albert on it, and you consider me the scummy one?

Post 923 - I catch what I consider to be a tell from Glork, and FOS him for it. Presumably the problem with this is that it's another person I'm suspicious of, raising my count. Since two people didn't like "if he wants to be next let him" it probably was over the top. However, taking that line as proof to tell everyone else "See guys, I was right all along, get on the wagon" is a rather large stretch, and still definately worth a FOS.

Post 937 - I try to point out what I consider to be a significant gap in MBL's last two posts.

MBL's defended it by claiming it was there for people to read, but it sounded then, and still does now, pretty inconclusive. Why give a summary of 5 players before your reread, listing 2 as "dunno" and the other three with equally vague phrases, and then not give them a final rating? If you're going to rate them at all, rate them after the reread. I'm sorry if I failed to grok the deeper meaning in your post, but there's really no need to get personally insulting (the spike TV reference) just because I called your post scummy. I thought it was scummy, I still think it is scummy, and if you [billy] think I'm scummy because I've mentioned doubts totaling 4-6 players on day one, then I'm sorry I cast my net so wide. I do rather like to defend myself, I believe that's what we're supposed to be doing when we're attacked. I don't like to leave things unanswered.

I don't have an interest in rereading day 1 during day 1; I'm merely calling out posts I notice (MBL's, Glork's) as I see them. These are FOS worthy, but I'm not about to switch votes based on one minor post I didn't like. I'm still on guardian.

Guardian:
And while this is probably not a valid scumtell, I'd like to mention, AGAIN, that my name is spelled Shteven. There is no C. Guardian, I have already corrected you on this once, and asked you to spell it correctly. Please revote for me with the correct spelling of my name. I know voting is usually fairly forgiving (you can vote for people's acronyms, etc) but I'm really starting to wonder if this is intentional. Guardian, please respond saying you have read this paragraph.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL's defended it by claiming it was there for people to read, but it sounded then, and still does now, pretty inconclusive. Why give a summary of 5 players before your reread, listing 2 as "dunno" and the other three with equally vague phrases, and then not give them a final rating?

If you'd reread my posts you'd see that I did analyses in groups, that was the last group of 5, and for completeness I read the rest of the rest of the thread afterwards to look at the first 14 I analyzed. It's a nonissue.

[BillyTwilight]

Shteven, it's not where your suspicions lie, or even why you are suspecting certain players that bothers me, it's the under-currents in the posts that bother me. I think that I pointed that out in my analysis, but I'll be a little more specific now.

@BillyTwilight
post 890 - Indiciated I'd be fine with a YB lynch or the guardian lynch which I left my vote on. Perhaps the indication is something you're supposed to keep to yourself, but I don't mind throwing it out there. It's day 1 and having two targets seems like a pretty narrow list to me. Beats the 4-6 I had mentioned way back around page 6.

I still stick with the bad vibe I got from this post. Looks to me like you aren't ready to vote for YB yet but want to allow yourself that option. Call it gut feeling when I read the post.

post 896 - Showed my distaste for the "I'm always scummy" playstyle. Almost all of albert's post sound scummy to me, and I don't care for it. It's the very same thing you listed in your summary paragraph:

. Nearly every player who has been under large suspicion has claimed that "I always seem scummy" and almost everyone here has let some bad play slide because of it.

I'm trying to call Albert on it, and you consider me the scummy one?

Don't know if this is deliberate or not, but your twisting what I thought was bad about that post. It's the last sentence; the thought process of "let's lynch this guy next without thinking about it." It's scummy.

Post 923 - I catch what I consider to be a tell from Glork, and FOS him for it.

Presumably the problem with this is that it's another person I'm suspicious of, raising my count.

Since two people didn't like "if he wants to be next let him" it probably was over the top. However, taking that line as proof to tell everyone else "See guys, I was right all along, get on the wagon" is a rather large stretch, and still definately worth a FOS.

Emphasis mine. This

is

a deliberate misinterpretation of my accusation. It has NOTHING to do with how many players you are suspicious of (and I never said anything of the sort so I don't even see how you got that) and everything to do with frustrated scum getting annoyed every time the player who keeps calling them out pokes at them. When I read that post I think, "it looks like someone is getting really annoyed every time Glork takes a jab at them, and finally snapped back at him," and that to me is more indicative of scum than town. This is the "overboard and not clear thinking" that I referred to.

Post 937 - I try to point out what I consider to be a significant gap in MBL's last two posts.

MBL's defended it by claiming it was there for people to read, but it sounded then, and still does now, pretty inconclusive. Why give a summary of 5 players before your reread, listing 2 as "dunno" and the other three with equally vague phrases, and then not give them a final rating? If you're going to rate them at all, rate them after the reread.

Meh, I don't buy that argument against MBL. It seems weak and forced, and I don't see a reason for town to be

trying

to build a case against someone on such a weak premise. MBL listed all the players in 3 posts. In his last post he was inconclusive about those 5 players. Simply means he isn't sure about there alignment and attacking him for being unsure about players is weak.

I'm sorry if I failed to grok the deeper meaning in your post, but there's really no need to get personally insulting (the spike TV reference) just because I called your post scummy. I thought it was scummy, I still think it is scummy, and if you [billy] think I'm scummy because I've mentioned doubts totaling 4-6 players on day one, then I'm sorry I cast my net so wide. I do rather like to defend myself, I believe that's what we're supposed to be doing when we're attacked. I don't like to leave things unanswered.

Is this last part to me? Not exactly sure what you mean, and sorry if I was insulting... I don't even know what the "Spike TV reference" is. Secondly, I

never

insinuated that I found you scummy because you have multiple suspects, and I find it scummy that you have gone to that several times in your last post.

[Battle Mage]

BM has gotten awfully lazy for a player who has been replaced once already and by the grace of the mod was allowed back into the game. It seems that he's been very quiet in this game, after the flurry of posts back when it started. I thought his excuse for not posting for a week or so was because of exams? I think maybe its time we get a prod for him with threat of permanent replacement.

err, actually i posted 2 days ago, with the request that somebody gives me a quick run-down of anything important, so i can get back into the game as quickly and easily as possible. If you are genuinely concerned about my activity, please do me the service of helping me catch up 30 pages worth of information, when i already owe large rereads in other games.

BM

[Shteven]

Actually, that last paragraph of mine was poorly phrased. MBL was the one with the spike TV reference, and then in the middle of the paragraph I changed who I was talking to (to billy). Sloppy construction, and I'm sorry. Billy is an A+++ poster, would buy from you again.

As for "a deliberate misinterpretation" of your post, it wasn't. I read those posts and I didn't think they were that scummy; this should be a given, as I wouldn't post something that I thought was likely to get me lynched. Perhaps I should be slightly more careful, I do play somewhat casually, but I would never intentionally say anything stupid. So when I reread the posts, I figured the problem was they were adding people to an expanding list. Guessing another's intentions is tricky, but of course, that's more or less the goal of mafia. Just be careful when you claim certainty that I was deliberately trying to misinterpret something.

As far as the let albert be next, I'm by no means guarenteeing an instant bandwagon on him day 2. We'll have more information day 2, for one. A better way to phrase it would have been something to the effect of him moving up my scum list, but I really didn't think that sentence would be much of an issue.

Also, I find it interesting you keep mentioning the post where I figured YB would be another good lynch choice but never mentioned [this part of] my later post afterwards:

As far as today's wagons go, I'm not completely sold on YB. He certainly seems suspicious to me, but I'm wondering if it's more his posting style than actual scumtells. I'm still in favor of a Guardian lynch.

I'm keeping an on eye on him, certainly, but there's a pretty clear gap between the two in my mind. The vote count on him made me pay more attention, but in the end, I don't find it that convincing. I don't think omitting this was deliberate.

[Guardian]

Guardian:
And while this is probably not a valid scumtell, I'd like to mention, AGAIN, that my name is spelled Shteven. There is no C. Guardian, I have already corrected you on this once, and asked you to spell it correctly. Please revote for me with the correct spelling of my name. I know voting is usually fairly forgiving (you can vote for people's acronyms, etc) but I'm really starting to wonder if this is intentional. Guardian, please respond saying you have read this paragraph.

I can't mentally pronounce your name without a c. I will try to remember that it does not have one, though. Sorry, I get quite frustrated when people misspell Guardian (Gaurdian, of all things...).

unvote vote Shteven

[Guardian]

Johhan and Plessiez are getting away with blatant lurking, by the way. Not sure if they're scum, but they are definitely not contributing much.

[BillyTwilight]

err, actually i posted 2 days ago, with the request that somebody gives me a quick run-down of anything important, so i can get back into the game as quickly and easily as possible. If you are genuinely concerned about my activity, please do me the service of helping me catch up 30 pages worth of information, when i already owe large rereads in other games.

BM

First, your last substantial posts were on June 5th (post #'s 303 and 305). That's almost three full weeks of inactivity. I understand you had exams for a week, but you said you'd be posting regularly again by the week of the 11th. Since June 5th there have been 600+ posts and only 6 by you, none of them with content.

Second, its not our job to reread for you and post a synopsis of nearly 27 pages worth of posts. If you don't have time or desire to reread yourself and come to conclusions then you should ask for a replacement. I understand missing a week and taking a couple of days trying to get caught up, but you've been promising a reread and substantial posting since June 13th, ten days ago. I'm not trying to be hateful, but if you don't have time to concentrate on this game as well as your others then you should ask for a replacement.

@Shteven: Your post #937 makes my point for me. Post #890 gives me the feel of not wanting to vote YB, but trying to keep your options open in case you feel you have to. You state that you'd be "happy" with a YB lynch, but your sticking with your Guardian vote. So, what did YB do (or not do) that made you move from being "happy" with a YB lynch in post #937 to being "not sold" on a YB lynch in post #937? I don't see anything that YB did to justify this change of heart. What I do see is a slowing down of the wagon, with multiple players voicing that they thought YB was just being YB, or the like.

I guess I see post #890 as you keeping your options open if you felt things were moving towards a YB lynch, but wanting to wait and see how the rest of the players moved before committing. When it began to look like YB would escape an immediate lynch you felt comfortable in backing away from being "happy" with a YB lynch.

Granted, a lot of what I am seeing with you is due to the fact that I think YB is scum; therefore, I am looking at other players interactions with YB and your posts read to me like a scum-buddy who doesn't want him lynched but wants to be voting for him if he is lynched.

Mod, can we get prods/replacements for HackerHuck (last post June 14th), Johhan (last post June 14th), and Plessiez (last and only post June 13th)? Thank you.

[AutumnEvenings]

I know Pless from outside of mafiascum. He's not lurking, he's inactive due to RL reasons. I can confidently say that this has nothing whatsoever to do with his allignment. I have no idea what his allignment

is

, as BeanBagBoy was very suspicious to me, but there's certainly a reason I haven't been jumping on his ass for promising to post and then not delivering. He needs a replacement.

Still working on my re-read.

[Yosarian2]

I'm still happy keeping my vote on Albert at the moment, as I still get the feeling he's kind of keeping his head down.

[Battle Mage]

oh no, i will be rereading, but currently i owe rereads in other games, which i also need to conduct. So, rather than have you wait even longer before i can post something of value, all i need is a brief summary of any claims, extra-scummy comments, and the names of the main lynch candidates atm. That way i can begin participating again more quickly.
furthermore, your first statement failed to answer my question. I know i havent been posting content for a while, for the sole reason that i dont know what's going on! I dont want to be replaced, and i want to start participating, and working some BM-Magic immediately, so i can phase back into the game.
Its ok if you dont want to help me with that. Im hoping that with so many players, there is bound to be one person who values my opinion enough to give me 10 mins of their time.

BM

err, actually i posted 2 days ago, with the request that somebody gives me a quick run-down of anything important, so i can get back into the game as quickly and easily as possible. If you are genuinely concerned about my activity, please do me the service of helping me catch up 30 pages worth of information, when i already owe large rereads in other games.

BM

First, your last substantial posts were on June 5th (post #'s 303 and 305). That's almost three full weeks of inactivity. I understand you had exams for a week, but you said you'd be posting regularly again by the week of the 11th. Since June 5th there have been 600+ posts and only 6 by you, none of them with content.

Second, its not our job to reread for you and post a synopsis of nearly 27 pages worth of posts. If you don't have time or desire to reread yourself and come to conclusions then you should ask for a replacement. I understand missing a week and taking a couple of days trying to get caught up, but you've been promising a reread and substantial posting since June 13th, ten days ago. I'm not trying to be hateful, but if you don't have time to concentrate on this game as well as your others then you should ask for a replacement.

@Shteven: Your post #937 makes my point for me. Post #890 gives me the feel of not wanting to vote YB, but trying to keep your options open in case you feel you have to. You state that you'd be "happy" with a YB lynch, but your sticking with your Guardian vote. So, what did YB do (or not do) that made you move from being "happy" with a YB lynch in post #937 to being "not sold" on a YB lynch in post #937? I don't see anything that YB did to justify this change of heart. What I do see is a slowing down of the wagon, with multiple players voicing that they thought YB was just being YB, or the like.

I guess I see post #890 as you keeping your options open if you felt things were moving towards a YB lynch, but wanting to wait and see how the rest of the players moved before committing. When it began to look like YB would escape an immediate lynch you felt comfortable in backing away from being "happy" with a YB lynch.

Granted, a lot of what I am seeing with you is due to the fact that I think YB is scum; therefore, I am looking at other players interactions with YB and your posts read to me like a scum-buddy who doesn't want him lynched but wants to be voting for him if he is lynched.

Mod, can we get prods/replacements for HackerHuck (last post June 14th), Johhan (last post June 14th), and Plessiez (last and only post June 13th)? Thank you.

[Glork]

Its ok if you dont want to help me with that. Im hoping that with so many players, there is bound to be one person who values my opinion enough to give me 10 mins of their time.

Hint: Read this post. Vote accordingly.

XOXO,
Glork

[HackerHuck]

OK, I'll admit to being a bit lazy regarding this game, simply camping out on my suspicions of Guardian for quite some time now. I just cleared three games out of my lineup and finished the big project at work, so I can devote some time to actually contribute to this game.

Based on what I've been able to follow so far, I'm still happy with my vote. We'll see how that may change after a reread.

[HungryJoe]

And I honestly can't muster up the will or energy to d a re-read of this game. It's like looking at an apple bin full of paperwork that's due in the morning. XD

Anywho, I still think that YB is my personal favorie candidate for a lynchin', and while I can see some of the cases on Shteven and Albert, I'd say I'm still a bit of a throw away from being sold on all this Guardian voodoo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, why haven't you posted any thoughts on Shteven since your initial long analysis?

He hasn't done anything I felt I needed to comment on. I still feel he is protown and making good contributions to the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Could you clarify what makes you think that YB is a good lynch whereas Guardian is the "easy" lynch?

Look at the two wagons. Guardian's wagon has been fluid and easy for people to hop on and off of, and no one has cared whether someone was voting him or not. Getting people to realize that YB is scum and vote him has been like pulling teeth out with a pair of pliers.

[HungryJoe]

MoS has a valid point here, I think. Pretty much anyone can jump onto the Guardianwagon without reproach, but even when a large and thorough argument (reference to Billy) was made, very few people changed or even seemed to notice it. In act, when I was convinced by said argument that YB was the best candidate over my personal thoughts, I was actually attacked for voting a scummy player.

So why is it that everyone's so keen on lynching Guardian, when I see very little of him that's actually been anti-town, and yet YB who's been bandwagon-hopping and opinion-changing like a madman is so far from reproach? I think that the scum is diverting us away from one of their bad scummates, and hopping onto what has been made so convenient for them, if even just by the good intentions of good townie players, such as Glork, for instance. I don't know that he's town, but I do know that his reputation is not unearned, and people know they'll be safe piling evidence against the man that Glork lays his eye on, regardless of what side he's on. =\

But then, call me crazy. Maybe I'm just delusional, hm?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm hesitant about Yogurt for the same reason I'm always hesitant about JDodge and Panzerjager--I always think they're scum.

[YogurtBandit]

I'm hesitant about Yogurt for the same reason I'm always hesitant about JDodge and Panzerjager--I always think they're scum.

I'm also voting you, So im assuming you want to avoid Omgus voting?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm hesitant about Yogurt for the same reason I'm always hesitant about JDodge and Panzerjager--I always think they're scum.

I'm also voting you, So im assuming you want to avoid Omgus voting?

Eh, I'm usually not too worried about OMGUS-voting. If I think you're scum, I think you're scum, and I'm definitely not sold on you as scum.

[Battle Mage]

despite advice from MBL, i wont be requesting replacement from this game. I've reread the entirety of the posts of Guardian, and i'm still ever confident that he is scum.
Not only has he been blatant in his 'casting the net wide', he has been decidedly reluctant to place ANYONE in the 'town' category. I presume this is scum keeping their options open. Not only that, but he has also been known to misrepresent others, and bandwagon shamelessly.

Unvote, Vote: Guardian

[Jack]

I really don't think guardian is the play.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Same here, but that's obvious. I love how, right after I say that it's easy to jump on the Guardian wagon, one of the most naturally scummy players on Mafiascum jumps on his wagon. I feel vindicated somehow.