Mini 459 - /cows Mafia - GAME OVER, YAY!

[Atticus]

I'm not joking.

It's been proven in psychological tests; when habitual liars (and/or murderers) are asked if they've done something absurd like, "Did you kill someone this morning?", they get defensive.

When truth-tellers are asked the same question, they respond by blowing off the accusation; of course they didn't kill someone, and no intelligent person would believe so.

Trying to figure out who you're describing?

[xyzzy]

It's not WIFOM; WIFOM is a battle of wits between two forces both capable of stopping each other.

This is simply me looking at reactions.

It's entirely different than reactions to good arguments; I gave theadmiral the most misconstrued, WIFOMy argument I could find, because it's the kind people aren't trained to react to.

The difference here is the type of argument chosen; the results for something like this are for the most part the same in everyone, making it a reliable method.

[Spambot]

I don't know what the hell xyzzy is talking about.

This should be a fun question.

Who doesn't think Atticus is scummy, and why?

[Atticus]

I had personally defined WIFOM as an argument that no one can win, because the either answer is logical and there is an equal chance of either being correct or incorrect.

[ThAdmiral]

@ xyzzy: you say that acting defensive is a scum-tell (in so many words), and yet I just said that I thought you've been acting defensively. Your putting nails in your own coffin.

[TonyMontana]

I'm not joking.

It's been proven in psychological tests; when habitual liars (and/or murderers) are asked if they've done something absurd like, "Did you kill someone this morning?", they get defensive.

When truth-tellers are asked the same question, they respond by blowing off the accusation; of course they didn't kill someone, and no intelligent person would believe so.

Interesting prospect, but I hardly see it having any relevance in a game where everyone knows the stakes.

[Hjallti]

I understand what xyzzy means, but I think he didn't get the point himself.

Of course it is true that if you ask me if I killed someone this morning I would not get defensive but just smile.

However it has nothing to do with this game, unless you change the set up a bit. We are in a house with 13 people, someone is killed and then you ask me if I killed the guy, and I will get defensive, both ways. (I might react different if I did it but in both cases defensive.)

Here we know we are in a group with mafia in it, it is for each of us reasonable to be assumed to be mafia.

When I read throught the thread I had the gut feeling that JordanA24 is defensive in the wrong way, but I can't point it out... it is a gut feeling, I was wondering if someoen else got the same feeling. But the only reaction was a defense of Jordan (with in this case a protown feel to it, this time).

Unvote:

/cows

[Occult]

I don't know....

I'm sorta getting that feeling from xyzzy over jordan. I'll re-look over his posts though.

[Blue Zebra]

@ xyzzy: you say that acting defensive is a scum-tell (in so many words), and yet I just said that I thought you've been acting defensively. Your putting nails in your own coffin.

He's not saying defensiveness is scummy, he's saying that getting defensive when faced with a ridiculous argument is scummy. I'm not sure if I agree with this, though.

[Spambot]

Nobody answered my question.

[xyzzy]

Just poking in to say I won't be here during the next 4 days.

Don't kill me while I'm not here to make a defense, kthxbai.

[Occult]

I'm not seeing the jordan argument to much.

@spambot I wouldn't say innocent but he doesn't look guilty. More or less stupid town IMO.

@XYzzy don't tell me what to do, dammit.

[Hjallti]

@Atticus:

The point Hadfang makes is so clear you shouldn't have missed it. That the logical equivalent 'I'm pro-town' (or rather 'I'm not scum') is a dumb thing to say and might be scumtell is even out of the question. Not every logical equivalent statement has the same scumtell value, and in this case it is defendly just a normal reaction of anyone. It is even maybe towntell since it feels a spontanous reaction.

Your later reactions are strange to me as well:

FoS: Atticus

If I want an official vote count, can I ask here? (Please do not look at newbie 352 for the reason I'm asking )

[Atticus]

Let me clarify this one last time.

Hadh says no one gets a title from his death.
Att says are you trying to claim
Spam says I'm scum

Everyone says that I'm wrong

-------------

Now let me fix my statement, as I've done before.

Hadhafang, this is a dumb comment, because no one know whether or not you're scum. Unless you're claiming unlynchable, why are you saying this?

[Occult]

hm. I don't know, I still say stupid town. But lets have a bit more discussion on the mater.

Btw, I will be reverting back to the random stage if no one is playing this game.

[Spambot]

Let me clarify this one last time.

Hadh says no one gets a title from his death.
Att says are you trying to claim
Spam says I'm scum

Everyone says that I'm wrong

-------------

Now let me fix my statement, as I've done before.

Hadhafang, this is a dumb comment, because no one know whether or not you're scum. Unless you're claiming unlynchable, why are you saying this?

That isn't even close to what you said. I'm going to post what you said again, because you are trying really hard to make it look different.

Are you threatening that you are unlynchable?

(not that I want to out a power-role, but if that's the case, I'm just asking for clarification )

Now, there is you asking if he is unlynchable. As has been pointed out several times, that is a ridiculous thing to think from what his post said. He was very clearly saying that his death would show him to be town, not that you couldn't kill him.

Now, you don't mention at all that it was a stupid thing to say. The second sentence suggests that you think he really is a power role that won't be lynched, and that you don't want to out him. I've already talked about the problem with that, and the problem with role fishing so hard.

Here's my biggest problem with your "fixed" version: Why didn't you just post that in the first place? What you did post was ambiguous and very odd with an inherent contradiction ("Are you a power role? I don't want to out a power role, but are you a power role?").

Also, you are not acting like somebody that has four votes on them. You seem content to sit back and hope the pressure goes away instead of trying to convince people not to lynch you.

[Occult]

Again the fact that he is calm isn't scummy. He is acting like he doesn't have much interest (serious interest) in the game. I'm not liking this, but how is his guess scummy?

His answers and reasoning have been aggravating.

And he seemed to be fishing for roles, IMO. But is there more concrete evidence?

What I'm really attempting to do is get some more information because if we were to lynch right now, we would not have much to go on tomorrow.

[Spambot]

Trying to stay calm while you are being attacked is scummy. Most townies start panicking and shit when they are close to a lynch and they argue really hard against the people attacking them, because they assume the argument must be wrong since the conclusion is wrong. Freaking out is usually a townie tell, but it varies from person to person.

I think he's been acting calm and trying to lurk a little in the hopes that somebody will say something stupid and a wagon will form on them instead.

I actually think we get a ton of information out of his lynch. Blue Zebra and xyzzy were both quick to agree with me about him, so that makes me very interested to know Atticus' alignment. The rest of the town has been throwing around FOS' at him and others without getting anything going. If Atticus is scum (which I think is pretty likely), then we can look at all the people that have been dragging their feet about it.

[Occult]

That argument is very WIFOM for one.

Next I've only been lynched once (I was town) and I remained calm about it b/c freaking out did not seem like the best thing to do for the town.

Also, Ive seen more scum freak out then town when about to be lynched. Him acting calm about is not a scum tell. Neither is it a townie tell. Its just a personality thing. Along with the fact that this is a very lurky game may add to the fact he is not taking it a seriously as usual.

Because of this I strongly disagree with your argument on this matter. There are other things I find suspicious about him but if his fishing with the way he is acting when on the chopping block is the best you can come up with, I'm not impressed.

I do agree that Atticus's lynch would give us the most information right now, though. I am uncomfortable lynching someone on simply that ground though.

My vote goes nowhere until we get some more info.

[Hjallti]

This sounds strange to me.

Btw, I will be reverting back to the random stage if no one is playing this game.

As a newbie I'm inclined to think that discussing whether or not something is scummy is pretty much the nature of the game... I think that has been going on.

I also find it strange that Occult is campaigning much better for Atticus than he does himself. Staying calm is not a scumtell... how you react under pressure is a personal thing. Scumtells can occur during the panick but the panick is itself not a tell (both ways). Looks like we might have a scumpair here, so since I'm FoS'ing Atticus, I have my eyes on Occult.

[Spambot]

Alright, my first reaction was to flip out a little when he says that this is my only point against Atticus. However, then I noticed this.

I do agree that Atticus's lynch would give us the most information right now, though.

Oh really? Compare that to this, from his last post:

What I'm really attempting to do is get some more information because if we were to lynch right now, we would not have much to go on tomorrow.

So, uh, does it give us information or doesn't it? If Atticus is scum, you've moved up past thadmiral for my primary target tomorrow.

Occult is also being wishy-washy in regards to his vote. "I am suspicion of him, but not convinced by this other thing you are suspicious of." "I'm not voting without more info."

We don't have perfect information on day 1. You need to be voting for whoever you think is the most likely to be scum.

[JordanA24]

Bloody hell, I hate Day 1,

I agree that Occult and Atticus are suspicious, but I can't help thinking that the scum might infact be sitting back enjoying the fireworks.

[Hadhfang]

That argument is very WIFOM for one.

Next I've only been lynched once (I was town) and I remained calm about it b/c freaking out did not seem like the best thing to do for the town.

Also, Ive seen more scum freak out then town when about to be lynched. Him acting calm about is not a scum tell. Neither is it a townie tell. Its just a personality thing. Along with the fact that this is a very lurky game may add to the fact he is not taking it a seriously as usual.

Although, his calmness might be him playing WIFOM. he's acting calm because he is town, but if he is town then scum would act calm to try and be town, so acting calm is scummy...

[Hjallti]

@Hadhfang:
I don't get what you are trying to say. Do you actually mean he is scummy, or do you mean to say that it is WIFOM, and therefor not a scumtell... I'm getting lost in the way you represent the double-psychology. I am inclined to think that WIFOM's like this are no tells (both ways); because it can be town spontaneous calmness or scum make believe calmness, or just a calm player...
By the way in this calmness discussion the remark was also made that calmness is plain scummy (Spambot #292)

In my opinion we should leave the track of discussing this calmness since we all make something else from it.

[ThAdmiral]

@ spambot: in all honesty I think you and atticus are about as scummy as eachother. Atticus for a lot of little things (which you have gone to lengths to point out), and you for your horrible earlier plays and your seeming singlemindedness.

Also I look at staying calm in the face of pressure as a town-tell, if anything.