Mini 466 - Game Over

[Jester]

Confirm

[Jester]

Yipe. My first impulse was to vote Numenorean 'cause he jumped right out of the gate when the game started like he had something to prove, but with three votes already on him, I'm not gonna do that.

vote: Indy

for being the second vote on him, which in my experience, scum really really like to do.

[Jester]

...which in my experience, scum really really like to do.

Er, except when I do it without noticing I've done it. Damn it!

unvote: Indy

I read your first post where you through up the dice way to vote (totally random I agree) but than you follow Sir Tornado and unvote because "my vote was totally random" seems to me as though you were really trying for the rest of us townies to see you blend in, I don't like people who try to blend.

I wrote more or less the exact same thing in my notes, so it was interesting to see someone point it out. I don't think it's worth voting for Amelia yet based just on this, but this was certainly interesting.

Unvote/ Vote Ameliali

Second mini-wagon. Maybe my vote wasn't so misplaced after all...

Absolutely nothing at all

I'll flip a coin between the two and

vote: Nanosauromo

. I don't like quiet people.

[Jester]

Jester, you've left Lowell out of your list of inactives. He has said very little so far. The only meaningful thing he did was vote you.

True enough, good call. ::adds him to the list::

AmeliaLi: You can't sit around this game and not be accused of a) lurking b) not participating. Ask some questions of your fellow players but sitting around doesn't help us find scum. If you are pro town, finding scum should be your #1 goal NOT reading other people's quotes and being quiet. Those two things will get you on the vote list real quickly.

I agree with this completely. The four fastest ways to show up on my particular scum radar are to:
:arrow: say literally nothing (no posts at all);
:arrow: say nothing (post, but create posts with no game content in them);
:arrow: concentrate on the "guilty" instead of being specific about who might be guilty and who might not be guilty and why; and,
:arrow: to get into a defensive play mode and concentrate on defense to the exclusion of offense.

Generally, scum will do one of the last two things, but not both. Right now, Lowell, Nano, and klopyrev are doing the first; curiouskarmadog and Dral are doing the second; Indy's doing the third; and Amelia's doing the last.

On the flip-side, I really like ryan's and Fireball's styles of play and they strike me as the most townish so far, particularly ryan. Tornado and Numenorean, I have no concrete opinion about yet.

I still don't understand the explanation of why voting for yourself is scummy. Can someone explain it to me again?

Only the most hugely frustrated townie would ever vote for themselves. It's far too early for such frustration. Aside from that, voting for yourself is considered scum behavior because it creates a "you'll be sorry when I'm dead and you find out I was innocent" vibe that tends to turn townies on each other rather than concentrating on their duty of finding scum. It's simply not a helpful town tactic.

What is WIFOM?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me

As a technique for detecting scum, I think it's debateable. As a technique for detecting players who play this game based on probabilities and hunches rather than logic, I find it very useful.

And to contribute to the discussion. Why is it that people who are inactive blaimed? If you are town and are sitting around watching the action, instead of contributing, wouldn't you be able to understand the behaviour of everyone else. In another game I'm playing, I made 2 very stupid posts since the beginning of the game and have been trying to defend myself ever since. If I stayed quite, I could have found out more about other people.

You can't remain quiet and play this game effectively because it makes you suspicious by exception. To play this game and remain (relatively) unsuspicious, you need to air theories about who you find more scummy, who you find more townish, and at least a little bit as to why. Scum like to stay really quiet in the early game because late in the game, when there's a pile of bodies around, people will go back and review past posts to see who defended whom and who attacked whom. As a scum, it's in your best interests to go into the late game with as little of this kind of evidence around you as possible. This gives you a clean slate to create suspicion among the other late-game players and hopefully get them to turn on each other.

In addition, remaining quiet about what people are doing hurts the town as a whole. If you see something suspicious and scummy, if you point it out, yeah, you'll probably get yourself murdered eventually for pointing it out. But it will help the overall town win the game.

Oh, one more question. Why does everyone have a caption underneath their name that says things like: Mafiascum, Townsperson, Goon? Are these random?

They represent levels of experience with this game on this particular forum. You and are are "townspeople", indicating that we joined this forum recently.

[Jester]

OK, Nano and Lowell get prodded, they come back, and neither of their posts has any content whatsoever. That... smells... bad. I'm going to keep my vote where it is, and add a

FOS: Lowell

. A more extensive post tomorrow morning.

[Jester]

I do not agree with the defensive play mode theory. I think mafia and town alike get defensive when their head is on a block. If someone accuses you of doing something scummy, most people’s first reaction is to defend their actions…which will then have retorts, and retorts to retorts, and so on.

Don't misinterpret what I said, which was "get into a defensive play mode and concentrate on defense to the exclusion of offense". In my experience, when a townie is seriously attacked (three votes or more), they will defend themselves strongly. Then they'll immediately resume their previous play style, which always includes their suspicions and (hopefully) the people that strike them as more townish. A mafia member seriously attacked will instead turn 100% to defense. If they have an offense at all, it will generally be of the "Sure, I'm suspicious, but X is way MORE suspicious. Kill him!" variety.

And from time to time, I'll accuse someone of doing this just to see how they react to it.

I'm interested that you say nothing interesting has happened in the first 100 posts other than klopyrev's vote on himself. I have a fairly decent pile of notes, myself. Why do you find Indy's two mini-wagons not interesting, for instance, particularly now that it's being followed by total silence? Why is Tornado's defense of Amelia in post 78 not interesting to you? Who among the players is striking you as more townish, if you're not seeing any/many scum? So far, you're striking me as possible scum saying just enough not to get on people's radar, but also not providing any content in your posts.

Klopyrev: That theory doesn't fly my friend. Scum can vote eachother, fight with eachother, they can do whatever they want to throw off the town. Those two can be just as scummy as anyone else here. It's called deception and I've seen enough scumpairs do it that I don't take anything for granted

ryan is absolutely correct here. If anything, scum will attack each other more forcefully than other townies, particularly in the early game, hoping to throw suspicion off themselves later. curiouskarmadog's vote on Lowell could be just such a play, for instance. This post strongly reinforces the town vibe I was getting off you earlier, ryan.

A) I was voting off of the dice. Its more suspcious to throw the dice up and not vote rather than vote for and then both do something 'scummy'

I don't think I've ever voted off the dice. Instead, I tend to meta-game a little bit and base my first vote on that. I'll see who confirms earlier and later when the game starts and make some guesses about whether townies or scum will confirm first.

So I did a little metagaming on you and you've done this EXACT same thing in a game you are currently in. What's the story? A tactic or a tell? I apologize that I cannot link the thread but the game is ongoing so we can't talk about it (via the rules) but it's safe to say that this wasn't a "slip up" in this game, he's done it before.

If true, that's very interesting.

Yeah basically I'm a little out of touch in most of my games recently. I'll be able to turn that around Monday, but until then I'll basically be in and out. Sorry about that. I trust nothing too important will happen until then.

Already mini-commented on this, but I find it a little suspicious, particularly if you're active in other games.

Lets get rid of them. Seeing as how they aren't truely here anyways.

This is the single scummiest thing said in the game so far, and I don't buy your "hee hee, just joking!" in the slightest. Still, what's interesting to me is less what you said and more how the other players are reacting to it. I'm starting to think you're a townie with a gift for saying the wrong things. I'd like it if you played the game based on players rather than concepts. When you talk about concepts, you dig yourself into a hole.

Good to see it drew you out to start posting.

A post with no content, continuing a long string of them from Dral. How about actual comment on the game, Dral?

I will post when I have something to say. My scum list? Hard to say with so little info. Klop would probably be the best lynch atm. But we got a long way to go. I also wonder about AmeliaLi.

Here's your first actual game content, and it's almost a point-for-point match with curiouskarmadog's post 99. I find that fascinating. Same questions to you that I posted to him above.

Kill! Kill! Kill!

Opportunistic much? My vote on Nano remains. He's posted the least actual game content of any player, and combined with this rush to judgment, makes him look very bad.

Absolutely nothing at all

I'd really like to hear more from Indy, Nano, Dral, and Lowell. These players are posting just enough not to show up on people's radar, but not enough to actually contribute to the game. I believe two out of the four are scum. curiouskarmadog is saying enough to stay off my list of four, but what he does post troubles me. He might be a third scum. ryan strikes me as the most townish, followed by Fireball and AmeliaLi.

And I'm caught up again.

[Jester]

Just a heads up: I'm going to be gone until Sunday evening. Expect no posts from me until then.

How would that be different from the rest of your game so far? You haven't posted yet.

More from me tomorrow.

[Jester]

I keep reading different posts over and over, but there are just too many for me to base my opinion about anything. How do you keep notes? What do you write down and what do you not write down?

For every post that seems to say something interesting to me, I write down the post number, whether I think the post makes them town, scum, or is just a data point, and a short note regarding what I think about that post. For instance, for this post (and your post 179), I wrote down:

"klopyrev, Maybe Scum, 162: Spends all of his time asking newbie Qs instead of playing"

I find it particularly useful for writing down who defends whom, who attacks whom, and sometimes who votes for whom. Mafia tend to attack the same targets without voting for them, hoping to inspire others to do so.

The single scummiest thing said and you consider her town?

Yep. Townies under pressure say the scummiest things, in my experience... way more scummy things than actual scum would say. Thanks for your post! Very interesting stuff.

How did curious hop on the deadline wagon in post 131? Wishful thinking?

This is quite a good catch. In retrospect, curious's 131 is extremely scummy: he lashes out at Lowell without actually voting for him, then when the Amelia backlash started, 20-odd posts later he jumps on Amelia's back instead. Gonna make it official:

FOS: curiouskarmadog

. Excellent catch, Numenorean. I also agree with you that the Sir Tornado/AmeliaLi thing is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. As I said, I'm much more interested in those that have been jumping on that band-wagon than Amelia herself.

I'm now comfortable with the idea of lynching either Nanosauromo or curiouskarmadog and will switch my vote as needed. For now, it remains on Nano. He still has posted the least amount of content in the game.

Anyone think Ryan is being too townie?

This, though? Yeah, I agree with the others. I'm not sure there's any such thing.

Okay. I just re read through all my posts, and holy shit, I'm acting Anti-Town.

Look who just joined the conversation. How about jumping back into the game by describing who you think is acting scummy besides yourself, and who you think is acting more townish?

Ryan's aggressive scumhunting might be making some of the Mafia feel nervous, and they'd be eager to jump on any suspicions voiced by some other player.

Yep. This is why I also tend to play pretty aggressively as a townie. I haven't survived a game of MS yet as a townie, but I find an aggressive play style works for the town as a whole. By the time I'm dead, reading my back posts always turns up scum.

It seems kind of like an attempt to place a vote that would not result in his being blamed if AmeliaLi turned out to be town. This is vaguely scummy, in my opinion.

It was extremely scummy, yes. But klopyrev's play style is so erratic that it'd hard to tell whose side he was on even if you knew for sure.

a repeat of his 154

Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"

Absolutely nothing

Kison, please prod (or better still, replace) Indy

. He hasn't posted a single thing since post 63, more than a week ago.

And I'm caught up again. I'm comfortable with a curiouskarmadog or Nano lynch. I'm certain at least one is scum, and maybe both. I look forward to seeing Lowell's post today. As of this moment, I think ryan and Numenorean are probably town, followed by Fireball and AmeliaLi. I think klopyrev is probably an insane townie. Lowell and Indy haven't said enough for me to form an opinion, which makes me very nervous about them with 200 posts in the books. Dral and Sir Tornado are in the middle, though Dral's repetition of curiouskarmadog's 99 in his own 151 is still a little worrisome to me.

[Jester]

Sorry I haven't been around. I'm in the process of moving, and just finished the move today. I'll have a long post out tomorrow.

[Jester]

Oh, and the one thing I'm definitely

not

doing is moving my vote to Amelia, so if anyone's counting on me to be a vote there, look elsewhere. I could be dead wrong, but I think stuff that Amelia's done has been misinterpreted, and then the paranoia around her capitalized on by opportunistic scum.

[Jester]

First, sorry I've been silent the last four or five days. Like I said, I've just finished moving, so I should be back on my normal schedule now.

Here's post 1 of 2 from me today, my thoughts through post 274, where the game seems to me to take on a slightly different tenor. I haven't read pages 12 through 15 yet as of posting this, so the opinions in this post might change as I go through those pages. So, more from me in a bit.

I haven't posted much because I don't have much to post. Do you want me to start making stuff up?

No but we would appreciate some suspicions, information, content from you.

What he said. This is your 5th post with no content. Your 6th post with no content is 222.

Honestly, I dont have much of a defense for this. At the time, in another thread the Mod said he might force a deadline (that I felt was early)..mixed the two games up..once Ryan said "friday" on this thread I thought it was this one...

Yep, I know. But you band-wagoned

awfully

fast when you thought you were on deadline. That still convinces me that you're scum, specifically the opportunistic scum I mention in my post 339. You haven't said anything on pages 9, 10, or 11 to convince me otherwise. You jumped on the Amelia band-wagon pretty damn fast and with little to no justification. You also have never answered any of the questions I posted all the way back in my 159.

212: nice post, Jester.

Thanks.

a massive over-analysis of Amelia's entire history from DNA to that afternoon

That's all very interesting, but it's summed up in my notes with my notation for Amelia's 74: "Became overly defensive of ryan's attention". I also agree that her 135

sounded

extremely scummy, but it still strikes me as an over-reaction to ryan's massive attack on her. Even people who think Amelia is scum think she's "hiding in plain sight" as it were. That's an interesting theory, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I think the theory is flawed. I think Amelia is a townie that said something incredibly stupid, spent 50 or 60 posts back-pedaling, and is now being piled on by a few over-zealous townies and a couple of opportunistic scum. I'm convinced two of the people voting for her are scum.

For the moment, I'm willing to take the risk of being thought badly of if she gets lynched and turns out to be some sort of scum. So, I'm still not going to move my vote to her without something a little more compelling.

I am here, I just really have no idea who to really vote on, I am still a bit on the new side and am not familiar with a lot of Mafia tactics yet.

This isn't a complicated game. Who do you think is suspicious, and why? Who do you think is not suspicious, and why?

Looking back on his posts, Klopyrev seems more stupid than scummy.

This?

This

is your first post with (a very small amount of) actual content in this game? I wish I knew whether to call this an attack or a defense.

Yet metagaming you, you are active in another game and admitted in that game that you have learned how to play on another site. I don't buy that you aren't "familiar with mafia tactics" Sounds like a lurking scum to me.

You're a handy guy to have around, ryan. For whatever reason, I don't think to meta-game like this. Again, this is a very interesting observation. Is it possible that rather than being lurking scum, Indy is first-time scum and he's not exactly sure how or what to post? I've seen this kind of paralysis in first-time scum players.

Just got done reading everything.

Welcome to the game, Red. I also agree, nice avatar. I'll be interested to read your impressions. I'd also like your opinion on why Dral's 151 agreed with many of the points in curiouskarmadog's 99. The matches struck me as a little too close to be coincidence at the time, i.e., maybe it was a mafia plan to coordinate tactics. I asked Dral this, but he avoided the question. Approaching that post as an outsider, I'd be interested if you have an alternate explanation.

If my inactivity becomes a huge problem, replace me if needed.

Hrm. This was posted last Thursday. You were supposed to come back with a big post last Monday. I was disappointed that it wasn't there, and more disappointed by this. I guess I'm in no position to talk, but the difference between us is that I was posting content before I had to do my move, and you did not, and still haven't. Your one and only contribution to this game was a sort of backlash vote on me all the way back in your post 31. My last two notes on you read thus: 129: "Give me five days to actually play this game." 258: "Give me five more days to actually play this game." That's either lurker scum or useless townie.

Then, 10 posts later, in your 268, you put up a vote

despite admitting that you haven't actually read the game!

If that's not a scum-tell, I don't know what is. It certainly throws your previous play style into sharp relief not as someone that's too busy. Instead, it says to me that you don't need to wonder or read about who's guilty 'cause you already know.

FOS: Lowell

.

Again, more from me on posts 275 on in a few minutes.

[Jester]

And here's my post 2 of 2(?) today, my opinions of posts 275 on.

Also, I believe the_Red_c to be Town, because a Mafia wouldn't quit a game. (Well, at least I wouldn't since I like being mafia more than town) Anyone else have a point of view on this?

Yes, my point of view is that this is a ridiculous opinion. Scum are just as likely to ask for replacement as anyone else, particularly scum that felt like they got tagged early and don't want to waste their time on a losing effort. Not that I'm saying Dral was in that position -- he struck me as a little bit suspicious, but not yet overly so, and nobody except Sir Tornado seemed to be looking too carefully at him at all -- but it definitely happens.

Your opinion that mafia wouldn't quit is interesting, though, in context. Dral defended you twice, in his 86 and 111. I can think of another reason a mafia would quit: if he thought he was saddled with an insane partner that he wanted to get away from. Of course, mafia could quit simply because they're too busy to give a game their full attention.

this is your second game ever?

For the record, this is my 4th game ever.

just throwing this out there for conversation, if both klop and Ameliali are town, what next?

I'm not sure what to make of the rest of page 12. It's a long klopyrev bash-fest, that's for sure. curiouskarmadog's 294 is interesting in the context that I believe he is scum. If he

is

scum, it strikes me as trolling for anyone who's suspicious of him. My answer to your question is that if Amelia and klopyrev are both town (and right now, my instinct is that both of them are), then the rest of us are going to have to carefully consider who among those that screamed for them to be lynched are overly aggressive townies and who are the scum that were goading the townies into two such false (if they are false) lynches.

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

I've been assuming that we've got 3-4 scum in the game, either two small teams of 2 mafia each, or 3 mafia and an SK of some type. If that's so, we've probably got one cop and one vigilante somewhere in our midst as well.

a long analysis of klopyrev

This is an interesting post, and I'm going to review this one separately, perhaps in a third post today.

Exactly what has Nanosauromo said? Notice, that he doesn't actually lurk. But, he doesn't really post anything substantial at all. This is how the scum behave. They try not to lurk, because then they would be put under pressure. However, at the same time, he doesn't say anything at all, so that he would be safe when we get to the later days and start rereading.

Sorry, doesn't fly with me. So, I am going to ask Nanosauromo to tell everyone what he thinks about each player right now.

This is exactly why my vote is on Nano, and hasn't moved for much of the game. He strikes me as far and away the most scummy player here. I've seen nothing since my last two posts to change that. On the rare occasion he posts, he posts nothing, or as close to nothing as possible. When he actually posts something, it's always a pack-following piece of fluff that could mean anything at all ("more stupid than scummy").

I'm convinced Nano's scum. He hasn't done a pro-town thing this whole game.

so, Klop is the Mafia master mind who has everyone wrapped around his (or her?) finger?...wow, what a masterful job he is doing.

This is antagonistic, beautifully so because anyone who reads it will see what they want to see: either an attack on Amelia or an attack on klopyrev. It's a piece of evil genius writing, because it says nothing of consequence while giving all the appearances of saying something of consequence. When and if either of those two turn up town, if someone pointed back at this post, you could just calmly say "that's not what I meant." I wish I could vote for two people, 'cause if I could, you'd be getting my second vote, right now.

I think that either AmeliaLi or Klopyrev is scum. I'm starting to lean towards Klopyrev for the reasons stated by Numenorian7 in post 317, but I still have a feeling that he's beeing more newbish than scummish.

Here's another sentence that seems to say something, but actually says nothing at all. Part one: "I think Klopyrev is scum." Part two: "he's being more newbish than scummish." Cover your own ass much?

vote AmeliaLi
Her and Klop are 1 and 2 on my list but Klop's last post made him seem more townie than Amelia. I'm still watching Klop though.

This post, 334, is an almost word-for-word repeat of 311, just with a vote attached. What exactly did Amelia write that made her seem more scummy than in 311, Red? Or was it just that Klopyrev seemed "more townie"? That's a damned odd justification for a vote, in my book.

Oh, and the one thing I'm definitely not doing is moving my vote to Amelia, so if anyone's counting on me to be a vote there, look elsewhere. I could be dead wrong, but I think stuff that Amelia's done has been misinterpreted, and then the paranoia around her capitalized on by opportunistic scum.

Having now caught up with this post, I can say I still think this. See my reasoning in the post above. Again, I'm willing to risk that I'm wrong.

I'd like to hear more from Jester on why he thinks scum jumped on the AmeliaLi vote list, and who he thinks those scum are?

As of this post, I'm 100% convinced Nano's scum. I'm 90% convinced curiouskarmadog is scum. I'm wary of the_Red_c. Dral wasn't playing all that townish a game before he was replaced, and Red is continuing the tradition. I'm also wary of Indy for lying or maybe lying about his MS experience and his lack of posting content here. My gut feel is that Indy is first-time scum that doesn't know what to post or how. I'd like Lowell to actually post something. He's managed to go 340 posts without saying anything of consequence, but is managing to vote for people despite all that. Not sure what to think about him. I think ryan, Fireball, and Numenorean are the most likely townies, followed by Amelia and Sir Tornado. klopyrev still strikes me as insane, but I want to go back and re-read Numenorean's detailed post on him. And that's everyone, I think.

And as a side note: I wish he'd do it soon. I don't like sitting here at -2 votes.

Aheh. Interesting wish. Don't feel safe and secure just 'cause I'm not voting for you. My thinking that you're not scum is at least partially based on the fact that I think others are way scummier than you. That can always change.

Everyone is onto you and Klopyrev, but not him. Not a single FOS. Still, I am inclined to buy his explanation for his behavior and give him some more time to form his opinions and join in.

I'd have a FOS on him if I didn't have a vote on him. And his "explanation" was, so far as I'm aware, "I have a strange play style" or thereabouts. That isn't an explanation. It's an excuse.

Nano's Scumlist 2.0

Here's your second post with actual content, but at this point, who you think is scum is irrelevant to me. Your attack on me is humorous in its illogic, though. "Saying nothing" and "lurking" are two entirely different things. You are an expert at saying nothing. You've said the most nothing of anyone in the game so far with the possible exception of Lowell.

Lowell

has been lurking and I notice he didn't come up in your "list" at all. I also never said that I'm on board with the lynch-all-lurkers strategy, no matter how much you might try to spin it that way. I said saying literally nothing was one of four things that would cause people to show up on my radar, not things that would cause me to vote or not vote. Your entire "argument" borders on an

ad hominem

attack, quite the little scum-tell. I'm amazed you haven't drawn more votes.

I belive that at least one of these people is scum.

And the other eight players you don't mention? Who strikes you as townish?

I don't like this post AT ALL. To me it's very scummy to say "I won't vote for person X, despite others doing so." It reeks of falsely standing up for yourself. This is one of those instances where if Amelia turns up town, I will be MORE suspicious of Jester.

You haven't posted anything of consequence in two weeks, and have been promising actual thoughts on parts of the game other than my post 339 which was (as you can tell from the timestamps) tossed up there after a few minutes of thought. How about the 338 posts before that, hm? How about actually getting into the game?

That said, I still stand behind my 339 and will take whatever risk accrues from it. I think I've been plenty involved in this game to show that my loyalties lay with the town, certainly more than I can say about you.

Absolutely nothing, again

I seem to be pointing this out a lot.

And I'm caught up again.

[Jester]

P.S. The more I read post 361, the more it pisses me off, Lowell. You seem to be trying to spin it so that no matter how Amelia comes up, I must be scum. If she's scum, I'm scum for defending her. If she's town, I'm scum for standing up for myself while defending her. It's a stupid argument, and I reject it.

I'm willing to take my lumps if Amelia gets lynched and comes up scum, but if she gets lynched and comes up town, what I did was ask people not to rush to judgment because she said something stupid and scummy, not whatever it is you think.

Still, the last time I let my emotions get the better of me, I voted for the exact wrong person. I play this game better when I stick to logic, so I'm going to ignore how angry post 361 makes me. -J

[Jester]

I'm now convinced that klopyrev is the Jester role.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester

Ironic accusation, coming from me and given my nick, but hey, there it is. Long post from me tomorrow.

[Jester]

AmeliaLi is currently #1 on the lynch list for today but yet you only used one of her quotes to talk about, any reason?

As I've said, I think a lot of the stuff around her is a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. In fact, by beating her over the head with something she did 350 posts ago, over and over again, you're giving her a pass. Let's say she

is

scum. By following your current strategy, she doesn't have to say anything new or give you any clues as to who her scum-mates might be. All she has to do is keep defending herself over that single incident.

Here's a question for those voting for AmeliaLi and klopyrev. It seems fairly likely that we're going to have a deadline imposed on us before too much longer. Does everyone voting for these two people feel confident enough about their votes that they want to see them lynched on just the say-so of the current voters?

I still think klopyrev has been acting like newbie scum, but I seem to be the only one.

No, most of the votes on him seem to be based on this theory. I just disagree with the theory. I think newbie scum would act more like Indy than klopyrev. I think klopyrev's play style is too eratic to glean useful information from him regarding anything at all. Even if he's not the Jester, he's sure acting just like one. I'm learning way more about people reacting to klopyrev than I am about klopyrev.

Something of interest about pages 16 versus page 17. After my long posts at the bottom of page 15, just about everyone jumped into the game and wrote stuff, for most of a page, all day Monday. By Tuesday afternoon, though, we're back to ryan, klopyrev, Sir Tornado, and AmeliaLi writing just about everything. This has been a recurring pattern throughout this game so far.

This is where "saying literally nothing" pops people up on my radar. When you sit out the game except when you're directly nudged, poked, prodded, or voted on, that to me is a scum-tell. Is it enough to lynch someone just based on that? Of course not. But then when you combine literal nothing with posted nothings (Nano, for instance), that to me is enough to lynch someone.

Have no fear I am still here.

Indy, your post 388 is what's called pack-following, which means you say something like "I agree with everything XXX is saying, but he posted it before I could" right after two or three people identify player XXX as probable town. It's a major scum-tell. It's also your only post for the last three pages, and your only content for the entire game so far. See above.

And as I read this, I was sitting here thinking that you [ed: Nano] hanvn't possed questions to anyone else.

You know... that's an excellent point and I've noticed that tendency from other less-experienced scum players as well in other games. If Nano

does

turn out to be scum, I think this is going to be a 5th thing that will put people on my radar in future games.

Lowell: I think the rest of the town has had enough of the lurking and not participating.

Agreed. He's a third player I'm getting comfortable with the idea of lynching. His 395 strikes me as a sympathy ploy, rather than real life intruding. There's minor real life intrusions like my move, a vacation, or the like. Losing a job is a bit more major. Lowell, if you're really losing your job, it's time to take a step back from the Internet for a couple of weeks. Don't ask for sympathy. Ask for a replacement.

the question still stands (because I think only ryan answered it) What if they were lynched and it comes up they were town, what next?

I answered this question also, in my 373. I notice that you responded to nothing about you that I posted in my 373. You and Nano seem to have just decided that you're not going to be able to convince me you're not scum, so you're just going to ignore me and hope that nobody else is convinced.

And as I read that post over and over again. IT'S ALL NEWB QUESTIONS!

I pointed this out earlier.

Oh forget it, this guy isn't helping us find scum and he's annoying me all to heck.

I've found that votes on this justification are always (not sometimes, not almost always, but always) bad moves. If you don't find his input useful, just ignore him for the time being.

I feel that is quite improbable. I don't think mods usually put roles like Jesters in a normal game. In fact, I have never seen a Jester put into a normal game (in the games I have read here that is). The only games I have seen it is in Open Games (Jester Mafia).

If this is true, I did not know this. Didn't know there was a role limitation for mini games, in fact. I'd been assuming that every or near-every role could potentially be represented, not in every mini-game, but in mini-games collectively.

Is there somewhere I can read the role limits for a mini game?

Never mind. Found the wiki entry.

If he's not the actual Jester, he's sure acting like he gets his jollies from getting lynched. I see this type of personality on IRC channels I frequent: people who enter channels for no reason but to see if they can get kicked out, and what it takes to get kicked out.

1) I thought jester's vote was opportunistic. Hence I voted for him. He still may be right about Amelia and her posting habits, whatever. I just didn't like the vote, regardless of whether I've combed through the whole thread with a fine-toothed comb.

"The whole thread?" I placed that vote in my post 30, after the game started on post 15. The "whole thread" at that time was therefore 14 posts, all of them either random votes or discussion of Numenorean's nick.

And I'm caught up again. My current three most likely scum: Nano, curiouskarmadog, and Lowell. Indy's a distant 4th. No change in my most likely townies.

[Jester]

@ryan: I was gonna do another long post today, but the klopyrev stuff, including your vote, really threw me for a loop. I want to do my own re-read. My initial take is that a) klopyrev is insane, and lynching him accomplishes nothing, and b) if klopyrev

were

mafia, his mafia-mates would be exerting a little more control over him.

Therefore, if he

is

scum, he's the SK or some other anti-town role.

It's interesting that you're throwing all your weight behind this, ryan. When klopyrev attacks, it's usually you that's in his (rather wobbly) cross-hairs. Are you confident enough about this lynching to accept the consequences if you're wrong?

[Jester]

Ah, so if I make a mistake and he's not town I should be on the chopping block because it's my fault? You've done a pretty good job up until this post and than you want the entire day to rest on my shoulders? Very iffy indeed. Almost like you know Kloppy is town and than you hope to get me lynched in Day 2. Very scummy indeed.

Oh, please. Point to me where I said that. I make a very reasonable, factual statement here. If klopyrev gets lynched and is a townie (or God forbid, a pro-town power role), and you're leading the charge, suspicion is going to turn on you. Some of the goodwill that you've built up will be lost. That's a simple fact and accusing me of being scum for saying it doesn't change that fact. Does it mean you automatically get lynched on day two? Of course not. Does it mean that people will be very slow to believe what you say on days two and three? That's what it means.

You haven't answered either of my questions about this:
:arrow: do you understand what's above, and are you willing to take that risk?
:arrow: if we end up lynching klopyrev on a deadline, are you confident enough about your vote to lynch klopyrev with just the current three voters?

I'm generally anti-klopyrev-lynch, not because I don't think he's scum (I honestly don't know what he is, other than insane), but because if we lynch him, we learn absolutely nothing useful from the action for day two. I've seen no reasoning from you behind this vote except that klopyrev annoys the crap out of you. As I said earlier, a) he annoys the crap out of me too, but I'm ignoring that part of his personality for now, and b) lynching someone because they annoy you is always (not sometimes, not almost always, but always) a mistake.

I also reject the idea that we can "safely" lynch a townie (even an annoying townie) on day one because we're not in a lylo situation. I'd rather take some extra time and maximize our chances of nailing scum. Patience is a virtue.

As I said last night, longer post from me tonight.

[Jester]

You're going to take the brunt because your two fellow voters on klopyrev right now are AmeliaLi and Indy. This is a troublesome alliance to say the least.

And for the third time, I don't think klopyrev is town. I don't know what he is, other than someone who's playing the game in a totally insane way. He's either an insane townie or insane scum.

[Jester]

EBYOP: troubling, not troublesome.

[Jester]

I think Indy needs to be replaced. Even though he posts when prodded, he is not part of the game.

QFT.

Since I've already posted my thoughts on Klopy and I'm not going to do it again but as I've stated before a Klopy vote is the way to go. People have been using the "he is just a newbie" excuse for pages upon pages, isn't it possible he is a newbie scum that have no idea how to play his role? He's been unhelpful in finding scum, he posts with no content, he follows other's ideas/votes without adding any new information, and generally does nothing to further us finding any scum.

This is what I've been referring to when I say ryan is leading the charge for a klopyrev lynch. As I've said before, I think newbie scum would act more like Indy than klopyrev. If klopyrev is a false front for an IC player of a different name, that's a different story. He sure strikes me as someone who gets his jollies from getting lynched, though.

Compare and contrast ryan's attack on klopyrev in his 451 to his attack on AmeliaLi in his 299. In both cases, he's been kind of leading the charge for a lynch on one of the two, and lists the same sorts of reasons in both cases. It's worrisome.

The only reason for this is that she, unlike the other two is actually posting quite regularly, and if she is the scum, then we are likely to get more information about the other scum from her. The way Nano and Lowell are playing, I don't think we can actually get much information from them if they are scum.

You and I play the same sort of game. I agree with all of these points.

Am I missing 2 people? Whoever they are, I am suspicious of them for not having posted much.

You missed Indy and the_Red_c (replaced by Gatorguy91), and yes. This whole game to date has been played by about half the players. Nano, Indy, Lowell,

Dral

/

the_Red_c

/Gatorguy91?, CKD, and klopyrev all provide very little actual content.

After reading over the posts, I can't help but have some thoughts on Amel. I will keep them to myself until I can reread some of her posts. For now though it isn't concrete and I will pull my vote, part of me wants to vote for klopyrev, but I will read a few more posts from others before I make up my mind.

This is, yet again, pack-following and a scum-tell. Indy, I'd like to hear your thoughts on all of the players, not just the one that's currently drawing the most heat.

However, this was how the game continued from then on. Ryan asked why Sir Tornado didn't vote on AmeliaLi when he found her suspicious. He urged him to vote on her to put her on -1. This was in post 257.

I disagree that asking the_Red_c his opinion of the game (Ryan's 260) counts as fishing for a lynch vote, but what's above re: ryan and Sir Tornado is interesting, and a good catch. Quite possibly, your first real content contribution of the game. ryan attempts to defend in his 466, but I find Sir Tornado's counter-defense in his 468 much more compelling.

Another interesting thing was that curiouskarmadog took AmeliaLi off -1 and put his vote on me. Several posts later, when ryan saw that people very taking votes off of her, he decided that I am a good candidate for mafia.

Yeah, I've been noticing this as well, see above.

Klopyrev sounds exactly like a newbie townie under suspicion, and doing his best to shape up.

I agree with this also, in principle. I still think klopyrev is mostly insane, but I'm leaning toward him being a mostly insane townie. I haven't seen a compelling attack on him yet made for any reason except "he's annoying" and "he's not contributing to the game." Well, as I've said, the first is no reason to lynch someone and in the second, he ain't exactly alone. There's scummier potential day one lynches than klopyrev.

Holy quadrupal post, Batman!

That's all you have to say? I'm sorry, but with 4 days and 3 pages since you last posted, you can't come up with any more content? No comments on AmeliaLi's vote just as she left? No comments on Lowell? No defense of yourself?
Vote: Nanosauromo

QFT.

Nothing seems amiss about lowell.

This statement is so contrary to reality that I can't believe more people didn't comment on it than Sir Tornado. It's also a blatant lie. You said in your 389, "He's [Lowell's] saying that it's scummy to not jump on a bandwagon. Saying this has knocked him up a point on the Scum-o-meter." Move Lowell from my #3 scum to my #2 scum, and I'm now completely comfortable with the idea of lynching him. Nano and Lowell are probably scum-mates.

And why is that? I've seen myself on numerous scumlists, but with no real description of my alledged scumminess.

This is another blatant lie. You said in your 389, "I'll admit that he [Jester] brings up valid points against me, and I do look like I'm not really doing anything. I'm trying to remedy that." You haven't done that, therefore, third blatant lie.

But sure, for the record: First 70 posts, silent. 132: picked up prod, but didn't play. 154: jumped on AmeliaLi's back, with "me too" logic. 204: repeat of 154, zero content post. 214: Zero content post. 222: Zero content post. 243: klopyrev is "more stupid than scummy." 262: repeat of 154, zero content post. 304: Zero content post. 324: Pack-following whining,

and

blatant ass-covering zero content post. 389: pack-following. 465: zero content post. 470: defense of Lowell. 472: blatant lies.

We're 500+ posts into this game, and your only two post with content are 243 and 470. You haven't done a single pro-town thing this entire game. You've not yet given

any

opinions on six of the game's 11 players besides yourself. You haven't asked anyone any questions. As Sir Tornado correctly points out, you're here, all the time. You're obviously watching the discussion, because when you're hit with a rock, you react. And when you do post -- only when you're prodded or beaten over the head with self-same rock -- your posts are full of nothing. You're scum.

...your posts don't help the town a lot...

Look who's talking. Your 475? Pack-following. Your 479? Quoting a past post to defend pack-following. See my question above, and answer it.

Its not like we are in a lylo position right now.

This is an incredibly

dumb

thing to say.

I don't see ryan targeting someone just because they have been attacking him. If he is scum *crosses self quickly* then he could afford to let any town that sees through his disguise dash themselves on the rocks of his pro-town persona.

Yeah. If it's a scum tactic, it's the most effective scum tactic I've seen yet. That said, I'm sticking to my current scum list.

... it reads that if we lynch and he's town than I'm the one who's going to take the brunt of the blame.

See my comment above. You haven't exactly been shy about asking for additional votes on your choices. There's no question that you've been leading the charge on your two scum picks.

It occurs to me that you've been so focused on AmeliaLi and klopyrev, that you haven't given many (if any) opinions of the other nine players in this game. Care to do that now? You say you haven't seen anyone else who's done anything scummy enough to warrant a vote, and I myself have at least three people I'd feel comfortable lynching, and two others where I could maybe be talked into it. Other players that I see as pro-town have similar-looking lists. Yet you've focused everything on two targets to the exclusion of everyone else.

Also, I agree with Ryan when he says that he shouldn't take all the blame if Klopyrev is lynched and turns up town. As he says, he's not the only one currently voting for him, and he probably won't be lynched unless more people vote for Klopyrev or a deadline is instated, which I don't really see happening, given the level of activity.

Again, I don't think ryan being wrong in either of his two choices leads to a ryan lynching. But it

does

lead to people (including myself) being a bit more skeptical of his crusades.

Calling it an alliance is a bit of a stretch, I haven't pursuaded anyone to follow my line of thinking, I've given my thoughts and if you agree, than vote, if you don't, than you vote somebody else.

I disagree. You've been actively campaigning to get specific people to vote with you.

Why are you so concerned about ryan's reputation all of a sudden?

Because a lot of people (including me) have him on our "probably town" lists.

NVM, I got the role pm, reread is in order.

Oh! Well, scratch my question mark above, then, and welcome to the game. I'll be very interested to see your thoughts. You're coming in in kind of a bad position; your only active predecessor said a couple of odd things.

But if Nano is a scum, we have no chance at all. Nada. He just isn't speaking anything.

QFT.

Oh, and I would also add Lowell to the first category of players. He has started posting fairly regularly in the other games I am in with him. I expect more from him in this game too.

Interesting!


And I'm caught up again. I'm now completely convinced that Nano's our best lynch target for today. Not only is he acting extremely suspiciously all on his own, but if we hang him and he's scum, his defense of Lowell in the light of Lowell's suspicious behavior points strongly to his scum-mate.

[Jester]

So I can either A: Agree with other people and get called scum, B: disagree with others and get called scum, or C: do neither and get called scum?

This one thing (it's called band-wagoning) in isolation = not a scum tell. This thing combined with all your other stuff = scum tell.

So why am I a better choice than Klopyrev?

Puppy whine "please don't hurt me, I'm just a puppy!" scum-tell. "I know I'm evil, but XXX is way

more

evil! Kill him! Kill him!" Can't count the number of times I've seen scum do this.

blatant ass-covering

NANO: *defends self*

It'd be nice if you read your own posts. Your 324 wasn't covering your ass in terms of defending yourself. It was covering your own ass in that you attacked klopyrev and defended klopyrev in the same post. The post, therefore, contradicted itself and said nothing at all.

Jester: He wants me dead no matter what it seems. This is Not Cool.
Klopyrev: He reeks of newbishness and stupidity. Although there's a possiblity he's not scum, I wouldn't mind seeing him dead.

Oh, OK. Me wanting you dead is "Not Cool", but you wanting klopyrev dead is perfectly all right? The difference between you and I is that for the person that I want dead, I've got good reasons for it which I've laid out for all to see.

And the rest of the points I brought up about you? You seem to have answered only those questions that you like.

[Jester]

This is almost certainly a fake claim. If Nano's the doctor, he's playing the worst doctor this side of klopyrev's first game. I can only think of one reason to make it, and Lowell of all people said it: to get the real doc to out him- or herself.

Long post from me tomorrow.

P.S. Can a mini game have the mafia doctor role in it? That'd be a way for Nano to make this claim without lying and still be scum. -J

[Jester]

Just in case I get killed tonight: anyone else notice Lowell's quiet re-entrance to the game? Still hasn't answered any of the questions directed at him, and used his re-entrance to distance himself from Nano. If Nano's scum, this would be a good thing to question Lowell on...

[Jester]

You put the hammer down on Nano, unless my personal vote-count is off, so as soon as Kison notices, we're in night. If I'm right about Nano and I'm right about Lowell (not certain by any means, but he's really setting off my radar right now) and were one of their scum-mates, I'd definitely kill me to shut me up.

Of course, it's still possible that I'm totally wrong about one or both.

[Jester]

EBWOP: ...radar right now) and if I were one of their scum-mates...

Sorry, posted in a hurry. And yeah, Gator's right. Even if someone unvotes right now, the deed's done.

[Jester]

Attacking your own scum-mates is called distancing, and is a

very

common scum tactic. It's particularly common late in a lynch cycle, as here, where the mafia feels like one member has to be sacrificed to save the group or one member is going to die regardless of what they do.

The defense of the distancer then becomes "I can't possibly be scum, because I helped kill XXX, who was scum."

And yeah, I'm writing my long post right now, but I don't know if I'll get it out before we go to night. There's nothing really epic or revealing in it. Was just gonna answer the questions thrown my way and give my thoughts on pages 22 and 23.

[Jester]

Kinda rushed through this, so I hope it looks OK...

Jester: Please quote where I've been actively trying to get people to vote Klopy or AmeliaLi, or where I've said "Hey Jester, vote Klopy"

You've never blatantly said that. You just make it very clear who you're trying to recruit and who you're trying to recruit them to vote for. Through post 500:

Vote for klopyrev! 192, 207, and a little less blatant on 100, 161, 197
Vote for AmeliaLi! 257, 296, 299, 330, and a little less blatant on 234, 363, 375
Vote for both! 88, 121, 240, 266, 293, 310, and a little less blatant on 358

You've been particularly anxious to have Sir Tornado, curiouskarmadog, and Numenorean vote your way, and you've been focused on klopyrev/Amelia since your 77. You were also the first to bring up the word "deadline", in your 130. I particularly like the assumption inherent in your 240 and 293. Go give them a re-read. You've been playing very aggressively, and you haven't been shy about asking for votes. You've also flip-flopped from klopyrev to Amelia and back at least once.

Jester, what do you mean when you say "Klopyrev is probably insane"? I have seen you write that a few times.

There's no logical line through his posts, connecting the first to the last. His posts are almost completely random. Not only are they disconnected from each other, sometimes they're disconnected from themselves. If he's having logical thought-processes about the game, he's not posting them. Hence, insanity.

How is that WIFOM?

Yeah, I didn't get that, either. ryan, you haven't answered this one yet. The "W" in WIFOM doesn't stand for "whining."

Of course it's a bad thing for me to be dead. Do you really want the Doc lynched?

In the unlikely event that this turns out to be true, for future reference, never ever

ever

role-claim doctor. Not for any reason. The people who don't see this as stupid see it as a scum-tell. The doctor should never out him- or herself, not for any reason, even if they're about to be lynched.

I think this is a fake claim.

As I said, I found this, followed by your immediate vote, fascinating. You have a ton of questions directed at you, you've made multiple promises to give us your thoughts on this game, and haven't kept them for various reasons. Are you still losing your job? Anyway, this re-entrance into the game followed by your vote struck me strongly as distancing yourself from Nano so that you can later say "Of course, I'm not scum, I helped lynch Nano." More logically, it's a repeat of your 268 when you placed a vote despite admitting that you hadn't even read the game. Unless you've read the game and not told us, you've just done this twice. I've said my gut instinct about you, but you could make me feel a lot better by jumping into this game and telling us what you think of the various players and what's happened to date.

If you managed to follow all that, I congratulate you.

I followed it, and you're dead right in all particulars except the wiki article, which I couldn't find. I'll keep looking, though.

And I'm caught up again.

[Jester]

OK, want to open by apologizing to Nano. I was completely wrong about him. All I can say in my own defense is that he was playing very suspiciously, and as I said, role-claiming doctor is absolutely never a good idea. The avalanche really came down on him after that, but again, I accept my share of the blame (which is a large one). He was playing very suspiciously, and given the same style of play, I'd probably vote the same way again. I'll have to think about that before my hext game; it just never occured to me that the doctor would play by making so many zero-content posts. It certainly isn't the way I've played when I've been the doctor.

Mitigating that, though, I'm glad my guess that Fireball was a tonwie was on. That makes me feel slightly better.

I'd also like more info from Jester, who thought he for sure was going to be night killed (which I found interesting)

I was instrumental in finding mafia very early in two prior games, once on day one, once on day two, and was immediately night-killed thereafter. This felt like it was gonna be a similar situation. I wanted to get my suspicions about Lowell out there in case that was going to happen, plus my comments about your play style in my 582. I haven't survived a full game of Mafiascum yet. I'm always either lynched or night-killed, probably because I'm so vocal.

Poor Nano. If he hadn't claimed, he probably wouldn't have been lynched anytime soon. Perhaps he wouldn't have been lynched at all.

Yeah. :/ That definitely started an avalanche, like I said. Jumped from L-3 to dead in something like two hours, which in this particular (incredibly slow-paced) game was very unusual and a little scary.

In particular, I find the way Lowell appeared just after Nano claimed to be very scummy. It seems to be evidence of true lurking, not just inactivity forced by real life.

Yep, pointed out the same thing in my 569. He still hasn't answered the flood of questions directed at him.

If he's pro-town, why not let the real doctor decide who to protect? I would like to hear some comment/explanation from Jester on this.

See above. It didn't even occur to me that the doctor might protect me, honestly. I'm not the cop, and I would have hoped that the doctor was looking for the cop.

Now that Nano and MFB are confirmed town, I've looked back over their posts to try and get some leads. I didn't get a whole lot.

There was nothing to get from Nano's posts. Like I said, he pretty much said nothing in them. As for Fireball, in my experience, the first night-kill by experienced scum (which it looks like is what we're after here) is pretty much random. The only thing that stick out at me regarding Fireball's posts were his defense of CKD in his 417 and 449 and his attack on Lowell in his 449.

Post 70?!? Jester does a coin toss between two “quiet” people Nano and myself..and his vote never changed. Interesting. It also should be noted that Jester thinks Nano and I are quiet at this point (even though I had several posts) He does not put Lowell in this category even though the only posts Lowell has provided were two voting posts with no explanations.

Incredibly not true. I added Lowell to my suspect list in my post 98 based on a pointer from Numenorean, put a FOS on him in my 142 and 371, and commented extensively about my suspcions of him in my 569. He's definitely on my suspect list, as are you. My vote for Nano in my post 70 was intended to "wake him up" and make him start participating in the game. It was what he said (or didn't say) after that that made him my #1 suspect.

Post 98: Jester mentions he has no concrete opinion on Nano or ST (again he leaves Lowell off this list)

Also incredibly not true. My post 98

opens

with me putting Lowell on my suspect list.

212: Jester mentions again that Nano is quiet. Requests that Indy be replaced. Jester is “comfortable” with a lynch on Nano or myself. Jester feels that Nano deserves a lynch for being quiet, but Lowell has not said enough to form an opinion??? How much more content has Lowell posted than Nano at this point? To answer your question: NONE!

Also not true. I invite anyone who's interested in this accusation to read my 212. Here's a link to it:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=212
By 212, it wasn't that Nano had said nothing. Nano had said things, but they were either zero content posts or suspicious things. As I stated later, I found his 154 particularly suspicious. On that same day, Lowell had said he was going to participate by creating a long post, a promise that he broke. His breaking of that promise caused me to add a FOS on him in my 371. Meanwhile, you have never answered or addressed the suspicions I raised about

you

in my very same 212. Would you care to do that now?

373: Jester: References me as being an evil genius…says that if he had two votes I would get the second. States Nano is the most scummiest player here for lurking (100% sure).90% sure I am scum. Gut feeling is Indy is first time scum. He would like Lowell to actually post something (but he is doing the exact same thing Nano is, interesting). He think ryan, Num, and Fireball townies.

Virtually every sentence in this summation is a lie. Here is a link to my 371 for those that want to read it:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=371
Again, I voted for Nano and held my vote there

not

because he was lurking. Nano

wasn't

lurking. He was posting, and rather frequently by that time. But his posts were full of nothing. The fact that you think Lowell and Nano were doing the same thing is simply not true.

You've been after Lowell since your post 131, and have never said why. If anyone here is looking to lynch lurkers, it's you, not me. Every time I spot someone lurking, I've been asking them to post/participate, not voting for them.

Jesus….Well, on the reread I think Jester is the one that lead the bandwagon…he was 100% sure that Nano was scum..and he never let up…of course now he is quiet….

I don't get on this board on the weekends, by and large, except to post a quick comment. I checked in Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon, and when there was nothing on the board either time, I didn't return until this morning.

And I'm caught up. My FOS on Lowell and curiouskarmadog remain, Numenorean is my most likely townie, followed by Sir Tornado and AmeliaLi. ryan drops off that list for me; I'm much less sanguine about him. ryan, I'd like you to actually respond to my 582. Other than that, since my suspicion of Nano was so wrong, I'm gonna take a bit of a back seat accusing anyone directly or voting and listen to what other people have to say for a bit.

[Jester]

I've always played that WIFOM stood for "whine in front of me" and I thought there was a bunch of whining and woah is me chat in that post.

Nope. "I do not think this word means what you think it means." And it's a trick of logic. As a tool for hunting scum, I don't think it's all that useful. But as a means of spotting people who play the game in a methodical way, I find it useful. When they use the phrase properly, anyway.

Until he gets back and posts something reasonable (and, depending on the content of that post, perhaps longer)

He also seems to be content to just ignore day one.

Sir T and Numer- what, exactly, do I have to answer for? Lurking?

Lurking? No. Continuing to promise providing actual content about the game, and repeatedly breaking that promise? Yes. Like I said above, you seem to content to just not say a word about everything that happened on day one, and hope everyone forgets that your total contribution to the town on day one was your nasty little 361.

Also, I don't know what a scumday is...

It's your one year anniversary of joining the forum.

Nothing, or nothing of consequence.

Mod, second request for a prod on Indy.

Is there a limit on the number of times you can be prodded before you're thrown out of a game? If there isn't, there should be.


And I'm not sure what to make of the ryan-AmeliaLi-Numenorean7-Lowell four-way battle over who is more scummy, ryan or Lowell. On day one, I would have definitely said Lowell, but I don't feel as confident about my instincts today. On the other hand, ryan

is

over-reacting to a lot of stuff, not only lately, but the whole game. He's also ignored my 582 and a second request to read and comment on my 582. Given the enormous number of things he's posted, that's kinda worrisome to me. I feel like I can see a lot of strings being pulled in the background of this game, but I can't tell who they lead from and to. I think I'm gonna do a re-read of the whole game from the top.

Comments from me either tomorrow or Friday morning after I've done that.

[Jester]

I'm looking forward to hearing more from Jester. I don't feel he has adequately explained his twilight behavior.

My re-read isn't done (probably won't be done until tomorrow), but it wasn't going to deal with that. I covered what I did day one twilight in my 608, specifically:

I was instrumental in finding mafia very early in two prior games, once on day one, once on day two, and was immediately night-killed thereafter. This felt like it was gonna be a similar situation. I wanted to get my suspicions about Lowell out there in case that was going to happen, plus my comments about your play style in my 582. I haven't survived a full game of Mafiascum yet. I'm always either lynched or night-killed, probably because I'm so vocal.

When Lowell suddenly reappeared after being so frequently and conveniently apologetic about his inability to play the game, I got a little suspicious. When his first and only action on returning was to put a vote on Nano, that felt to me like distancing. I was strongly suspicious of Lowell at the end of day one (and I'm still more than a little suspicious of him) and said so even before he took those actions.

Let's say for a moment (theoretically) that Nano had turned out to be scum and Lowell was his partner. In that case, Lowell voting on Nano followed by night-killing me would have been an excellent way to allay later suspicion of him. He could have said:

a) I can't be scum. I helped lynch Nano.
b) I can't be scum. I wouldn't night-kill Jester right after Jester said all those terrible things about me being Nano's partner.

At the end of day one, that's what felt like to me was going to happen. It really felt to me like Nano was gonna turn out to be scum and if Lowell was his partner, I didn't want to get night-killed without getting my further suspicion out there.

Lowell still hasn't kept any of his promises about commenting on the actual game. His only post with content in day one was 361, but he still managed to vote for three different people despite not offering any opinions of them. He's posted quite a lot since day two opened, but most of those posts have been content-free. Hell, we don't even know if he's still losing his job. The only reason I'm not voting on him right now is because my reason for suspecting Nano was the exact same thing and we saw how that turned out.

I hope to finish my re-read tomorrow. Just been too busy with work today. This has been the hardest mafiascum game I've been in yet, though, because so many players are saying so little. The re-read is frustrating for that reason.

[Jester]

This is completely true. I was referencing post 70, where in post 70 or before did you mention Lowell at all? You DID say that I and Nano had not provided anything, which is NOT true (I had many posts). I find it odd that you attacked Nano and I for not posting and left Lowell off your list IN THIS POST…luckily someone later caught you on that.

As of post 70, you had 3 posts, the same as Nano. Lowell also had 3 posts. As you correctly state, I missed that until it was pointed out to me.

Later he does say he puts Nano, klop, and Lowell on the list of not doing anything…but he still keeps his vote on Nano.

Partially true. My quiet player list was actually Indy, Nano, Dral, and Lowell, if you mean my 159. And yeah, I kept my vote on Nano because when he

did

start posting, it was to say things I thought were suspicious, in particular his 154, 204, 214, and 222. I thought he was generating a lot of zero-content posts, and said so. I was also highly suspicious of you, and said so in my 212. If I'd moved my vote in the early game, it would have been to you, and I said as much in my 373.

Speaking of not true, I did answer your suspicions from 212, same page 217, I even quoted you so you knew it was to you.

Nope. You answered

Numenorean's

suspicion about you in your 217 (which I quoted in my 212, which you quoted in full), the fact that you eagerly jumped on the deadline possibility. The suspicion

I

raised about you in my 212 was the fact that you were stirring the pot against Lowell in your 131, then when Lowell didn't get a ground-swell under him, you immediately started stirring the pot against AmeliaLi instead (156), who

was

getting such a ground-swell.

Now you are starting to piss me off…every sentence a lie? Lets see.

I'm completely not gonna get into a sentence-by-sentence pissing match with you. Here's what you wrote again:

373: Jester: References me as being an evil genius…says that if he had two votes I would get the second. States Nano is the most scummiest player here for lurking (100% sure).90% sure I am scum. Gut feeling is Indy is first time scum. He would like Lowell to actually post something (but he is doing the exact same thing Nano is, interesting). He think ryan, Num, and Fireball townies.

Sentences end where there are periods. Where you mis-quote me, you connect it in the same sentence to something that's true. A good example: "He would like Lowell to actually post something (but he is doing the exact same thing Nano is, interesting)." That's three statements in one sentence:
:arrow: I would like Lowell to actually post something (true);
:arrow: (but he is doing the exact same thing Nano is) (false);
:arrow: (interesting) (your opinion, not a fact).

Isnt this exactly what you are claiming Nano did?

For the fourth time, no. Lowell's posts up to that point were repetitions of one phrase: "give me five days to actually play this game." Lowell would then vote while admitting he wasn't paying attention to the game. Nano, on the other hand, wrote posts that made it look like he was actually participating in the game (324 and 389 are excellent examples), but actually said nothing at all. I said several times that by the 300s, Nano was pack-following. I interpreted this as scum behavior when it was actually inexperienced doctor behavior.

Am I still suspicious of Lowell? Yep. Am I still suspicious of you? Yep, but you're not #1 on my list right this second. If I had a list, Lowell would probably be on top of it, but I feel like this game is mostly townies shouting at each other while the scum stay quiet and just goad us on from time to time when things slow down a little.

Why are you STILL trying to push me as scum?

:arrow: started the rush on klopyrev in your 40;
:arrow: pot-stirring changes between your 131 and 156;
:arrow: jumped on ryan's deadline post (same 131); and,
:arrow: your 294 and 321 really rub me the wrong way.

More from me in a few.

[Jester]

Wanted to let everyone know I'll be gone from Aug 3rd-15th. I probably won't have internet during that time.

mod

, replace me if needed, but I'd rather not.

Also, I'm liking curious as town this game.

Oh, for heaven's...

vote: Lowell

.

As I said, more from me in a few.

[Jester]

I only ask that because of Jester's post at the end of Day 1 where he basically fingered Lowell scum (569/574) yet didn’t place a vote on him during Day 2.

This is misrepresenting what I said, which was an argument for Lowell being scum if Nano was scum. That's obviously not the case now. Covered this in my 664.

something else I noted, you referenced 371 to prove that my notes on 373 were lies...any reason why you didnt provide a link to actual quote?

Just mislinked the post. As far as I'm concerned, my 371 and my 373 are two parts of the same post. It also doesn't matter, because I responded to what you actually wrote in your 599, no matter which of the two (371/373) you were referencing.

SECOND REQUEST for you to address this. Anyone can go back and read what I said, vs. what you said…these are not lies.

And getting screechy fishwife about it doesn't help.

Nano was lurking in plain sight, while Lowell was simply not here. That was precisely why I voted for Nano in the first place too. So, your accusation of Jester for voting and analysing Nano more than Lowell is a bit unfair.

QFT, and thank you.

Heh... sorry... I got somewhat bored with the game. I'll try to spend some time reading tomorrow.

But still... He got bored with the game...? This game is not boring.

I have a theory about why klopyrev suddenly got bored with the game, but for various reasons, I'm not going to put it out there just yet.

what about those players who are sayng something?

My current thinking, as I said in my previous post, is that this game is mostly townies screaming at each other while the scum mostly watch.

I don't agree that "so many players are saying so little." This isn't an incredibly active game, but we only have 3 inactives at this point (klopyrev, Lowell and Indy).

Nope, we've got at least four: klopyrev, Lowell, Indy, and Gatorguy91.

interesting..the two people in the game who I feel are the scummiest (Jester, Ryan) are know going to be "quiet" for awhile..

As I said a couple of posts ago, it's pretty rare for me to get on this forum on the weekends. Other than that, I don't think I've been particularly more quiet or less quiet than I have the rest of the game, with the exception of my move.

1) Jester has been very observent, and has stated some very useful things that I missed on first glance. He has influenced my opinion at some moments. Though now that I think about it, he hasn't posed that many questions.

You might want to re-read my posts. Start with 371 and 373, for instance. At least ten questions in those two alone. Though in one way, you're right: I tend to state my questions as accusations rather than ending them with a question mark.

If you seem to be guessing, then guess what? I think you are the scum.
Vote: Ryan

I think you've let ryan needlessly antagonize you here. Granted, ryan's done a couple of things I find scummy, but overall, I'm still getting a town vibe off him. He's one of those that seems to over-react when attacked. And I completely agree with ckd's questions in his 698. Why does a ryan lynch lead immediately to a Lowell lynch? Are you just keying off the fact that Lowell has about the same number of votes as ryan?

...so far as I know, Lowell hasn't yet justified his reason to vote Nano at all.

Lowell hasn't justified

any

of his votes in day one. He just moved from one band-wagon to the next.

Jester came out and said he was 100% certain and never let up on Nano once, and didn’t even once consider his claim.

I did, for about 45 seconds. I just couldn't think of any reason whatsoever for anyone to role-claim doctor. I'm a relative newbie at this game, and even I know you never role-claim doctor, not for any reason.

So what is your question here?

The question is, why did your suspicion shift so rapidly between your 131 and your 156? You went from voting on Lowell to FOSing Amelia to voting for her in 15 hours. Amelia doesn't seem to have said anything between her "lynch all lurkers" and your vote to justify moving your vote that fast.

[Jester]

ryan: I have. He's ignored those questions, along with all others.

[Jester]

I think Gator is as guilty as Lowell for his actions, but am wondering why he seems to be off most everyone's radar...or at least vote free.

Gator doesn't have a lot of actions to be "guilty" for, but I agree he's a little suspicious and said as much in both my 371 and 373 (when he was the_Red_c). Gator himself hasn't said anything at all, other than his 588 which was a vote on Lowell with no justification, and answering none of the questions directed his way.

[Jester]

Not much for me to respond to since my Monday post. I agree with all particulars with regard to Gatorguy. He reacts when a rock is thrown at him, but hasn't actually contributed to finding scum or answered any of the questions sent his way. The same went for the_Red_c. The same went for Dral.

Wanted to let everyone know I'll be gone from Aug 3rd-15th.

Since he hasn't responded to my vote, I'm guessing this actually means he'll be gone from July 30 to August 15.

mod

, any response to your klopyrev prod? Any luck finding a replacement for Indy? We're trying to play a 10-person game with 40% of the players gone, and it's really starting to feel like a waste of my time.

Unvote

. I'll vote again when Gatorguy, Lowell, Indy (or his replacement), and klopyrev each produce two quality posts. Until then, I'm treating everyone who's actually participating in this game as a probable townie.

[Jester]

Jester: Who are you most suspicsious of?

Missed this question. If it isn't obvious, Lowell, you, klopyrev, and Indy, in that order. I'm still a little nervous about ckd, but for now, I'm willing to accept Numenorean's position that we're both townies over-reacting to and antagonizing each other.

[Jester]

Mod

, I believe Spag replaced Indy and klopyrev is the 4th not voting.

[Jester]

@Jester
With this lull in activity, I don't think you can just stay in your shell out of despair over the D1 mislynch. We need your opinions and your vote.

Read my 735. That's my current opinion. But sure, I'll expand it a bit.

I have good reason to think we've got two mafia and one SK in the game. I have good reason to think one of our mafia is "loud" and the other is "quiet." I have good reason to think the SK is also being quiet.

We've got four quiet people, and I think two of them are scum.

Therefore, if I vote for someone quiet with them producing no information for me to base that vote on, I've only got a 50/50 chance of hitting a scum target. Those aren't good enough odds for me to vote, so I'm not going to vote for any of the quiet people.

I see two possibilities for our loud mafia, but they're contradictory, and I don't feel confident enough about a vote there to vote

that

way, either.

Therefore, I'm not voting for the moment. Now go back and read my 735. That's my current opinion.

[Jester]

Hi all. Sorry, I'm too busy to participate in Mafiascum on weekends. I'll get caught up Monday, hopefully around noonish.

[Jester]

OK, first thing. One of the last things ryan said is definitely true:

As for the rest of the townies in this game..... you suck.

The town has played an extremely poor game (and yeah, I include myself in that) and unless Sir Tornado is scum, if the scum win, it'll be less because they were playing well than because the town was playing so poorly. If Sir Tornado is scum, then bravo to you sir, very well played indeed.

That said, after reading the last four pages, I think both Lowell and Gatorguy are scum. I've had my suspicions about Lowell all the way back to his 268, and his lying about being gone from August 3 (or was it July 30) to August 15 just gift-wraps them for me. If Lowell was so gone, why did he suddenly wake up and react on August 11 when he got within a couple of votes of being lynched? Why has he not helped the town find scum? It's possible that he's the cop and he's trying to lay low to support that role, but if he's the cop, he's the worst cop in the history of mafiascum. His request for the cop to role-claim sounds a

lot

like the mafia is so confident that they're going to sacrifice Lowell in the hopes that the cop will out himself.

I also have my worries about Gatorguy. I had my worries about Dral going back to Dral's 151, and the constant replacements in this slot have made it impossible to get a town read off him. Once Gatorguy took the position, though, pretty much everything he's said, I've either found scary or disagreed with. His 726, I particularly don't like, with it flinging suspicion bombs on virtually everyone with no justification for a single thing said in that post. I don't feel like he's actually read any of the game, and he certainly hasn't backed up any of his opinions of the game.

I'm also no longer comfortable with Numenorean, who seems to be trying to architect an end-game here. He and ryan were my (contradictory) picks for "loud mafia" I mentioned in my 764 and with ryan dead (and his innocence assured), I've become very uncomfortable with much of the stuff that Numenorean says. It might just be a coincidence, but he's been deeply involved in both townie lynches, while sounding very reasonable and casual throughout the game.

All that said...

Also I would like to point out that Num seems to be really pushing for a vote right now. ... I do not like being pushed to vote...

QFT. There's no reason to rush to judgment. The town has played the game very stupidly to date (if we were playing well, there wouldn't be four dead townies and zero dead scum), which gives us

less

reason to rush to a day three lynch, not more. Those who have votes out there should withdraw those votes unless you can lay down a really strong case for your vote. I haven't seen any really strong cases, not even mine. That's why I'm not voting for Lowell, yet.

SPAG, I'm getting an initial townie vibe off you, but it'd be good if you read the whole game, not just the last few pages. I'm convinced you wouldn't have voted on ryan (and been involved in his lynching) if you had actually read the game. So, please read the game before throwing another vote out there.

Amelia, now that you're back and you're done re-reading, any new thoughts?

More from me tomorrow. I'm going to give Numenorean's posts a re-read from the beginning. In the meantime, I suggest everyone voting either withdraw your votes or give solid justifications for them.

[Jester]

I'm trying to cut back today. I'm not voting until I see a conclusive case, but I will still be hunting for suspicious behavior and bringing it up. Just don't expect me to push anyone's lynch.

Fair enough, for now.

You're scum. We no-lynch today, we lose the game.

I agree with the second sentence, but not the first.

I think that both of you are townies. AmeliaLi has already shown that when under pressure, she'll say the exact wrong thing, even something frightfully stupid and scummy-sounding. That, however, seems to be her one and only scum tell. And you, Sir Tornado, have voted early twice, both times to lynch townies, which makes your scum radar suspect at best. I definitely won't be following you down this road.

As for SPAG, whether his name is Indy or SPAG, that player adds only one thing to the proceedings: pack-following. That is a scum tell, but by itself is not a strong enough one to do anything about yet. SPAG, I have yet to see a good reason from you from your Lowell vote, and I have yet to see any intelligent commentary from you on the game. How about giving your opinion on something other than the pack of the moment?

Nobody else has posted since yesterday, so I'll check in again tomorrow.

[Jester]

Gatorguy, do you have a decent reason for your Lowell vote other than "happened to be the first person who voted for ryan"?

Gatorguy, have you actually read the game, rather than just the last three or four pages?

[Jester]

i did read the game, but only scanned through.

lowell has been suspiscious all game

Oh look, an inconsistency.

Would you like to explain how you know Lowell has been suspicious "all game" when all I've done is "scanned through" the game?

[Jester]

mod

, prods on Lowell and klopyrev, please, neither of whom have posted in more than a week.

[Jester]

Lowell, you're one more post from getting hammered, by me. You flat-out lied about being gone "August 3 to August 15." Instead, you disappeared immediately after posting that on June 30, then miraculously reappeared in the game on August 11 when you were in danger of getting lynched before.

You've been zero help finding scum. Your only contribution to the game has been to help lynch two townies, but unlike Numenorean and Sir Tornado,

you

have no built-up good-will to exchange for your misdeeds.

Why do you have to be prodded to play this game?

Writing this post annoyed me enough that I decided to meta-game a little bit. Know what I found? You posted in another game three times between August 7 and August 9. You're a liar, and you're done.

vote: Lowell

[Jester]

As a matter of fact, I think klopyrev is telling the truth. When, after night one, klopyrev suddenly became bored and wanted to quit, I thought to myself "he's a power role, but he got blocked or prevented." The doctor was dead at that point, so a moment later, I thought, "mafia role-blocker." And I'll bet a large sum of cash that's exactly what we've got in this game. I thought klopyrev was the SK, but honestly, Vig works just as well.

So let's assume for a couple of minutes that klopyrev is telling the truth.

klopyrev isn't scum. I don't think Numenorean and Sir Tornado are scum: both have assisted in killing townies, true, but both have been trying to find scum. I don't think Amelia is scum. She's got a major scum-tell: saying stupid, scummy stuff. But that's her only scum-tell. I'm certainly not scum, and I think a lot of people would back me up on that.

Who does that leave?

Yeah, exactly. The guy who hasn't exactly been a lot of help. The guy I've been suspicious of all the way back to when he was Dral.

vote: SPAG

[Jester]

EBYOP: SPAG was Indy, not Dral, sorry. Suspicious all the way back when he was Indy.

[Jester]

Also I have no idea who indy is, so I don't know what to make of her/his lynch. I'll read back for that.

2) An Indy lynch?? That guy reeks of newbie town to me. Where did that come from?

Three days and no other posts from Lowell separate those two posts.

SPAG's first action on entering the game was to vote Gatorguy. Twice (first on two separate days). His only other action, whether as himself or Indy, was pack-following. He's lied a couple of times about "I'll participate tomorrow" and then not done it.

Also, a re-read of the game centering on votes has turned up some interesting things. Here's the peak of the vote on Amelia, when a band-wagon was building up behind her on day one:

AmeliaLi (4) : Indy, Nanosauromo

(Doctor)

, ryan

(Townie)

, Sir Tornado
klopyrev (2) : Numenorean7, Lowell

(Scum)

Nanosauromo (1) : Jester
Jester (1) : curiouskarmadog

(Townie)

Not Voting (4) : AmeliaLi, MightyFireball

(Townie)

, Dral

(Cop)

, klopyrev

Roles added by me. I don't think two scum would, all by themselves, vote for klopyrev, particularly that early in the game. That makes Numenorean look reasonably innocent. Indy's vote on Amelia stuck there for a long, long time, coming off only when the band-wagon on her started coming apart.

Here's the vote that lynched Lowell on day three:

865: Gatorguy91

(Cop)

, SPAG, klopyrev, Sir Tornado, Jester

It seems clear that Gatorguy investigated Lowell on night one (he started beating the drum for a Lowell lynch on day two), and either curiouskarmadog or me on night two (he was suspicious of the two of us). By this time, I think the mafia decided to sacrifice Lowell. Lowell's only real post on day three was an invitation for the cop to out himself.

Here's the vote that lynched ryan on day two:

798: Lowell

(Scum)

, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, klopyrev, SPAG, curiouskarmadog

(Townie)

Again, mostly clears Numenorean. I don't think two scum would vote one right after the other. There's SPAG, putting ryan at L-1.

And for completeness, here's the vote that lynched Nano:

584: Jester, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, MightyFireball

(Townie)

, Lowell

(Scum)

, Gatorguy91

(Cop)

, Ryan

(Townie)

Not much I can say about this one yet, other than the fact that the only person in on all three lynches was Sir Tornado. That means that if Indy/SPAG isn't scum, Sir Tornado almost certainly is, and ST has played a brilliant game.

So, for now, my vote is locked. I'm convinced SPAG is scum. There's a damn good chance that there's a third scum, which at this point I think might be either Sir Tornado (he does have a 4/4 record as scum ) or Amelia.

[Jester]

One more thing: Heh. I just realized. If SPAG is not scum, then AmeliaLi/Sir Tornado almost certainly

are

a scum-pair, just like Dral said alllllll the way back in his 166. I think I'm gonna re-read the first 166 posts of the game.

[Jester]

Sir Tornado, the more you push this point, the more I have doubts about you being pro-town.

If klopyrev is telling the truth, then having him mod-killed reduces us by one townie and makes a town loss more or less inevitable. Pushing so hard on this point makes you anti-town. That would make you mafia.

If klopyrev is lying, then he didn't quote the mod, he's not going to get mod-killed for it, and you've learned nothing except that he's lied about a role. It doesn't make klopyrev mafia.

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that klopyrev is telling the truth. There's nothing to be gained by lying about this, and klopyrev strikes me as impatient-insane enough to pointlessly role-claim like this. If he were role-claiming under threat of lynch, that would be one thing and I could understand you pressing so hard, but he's not and so I don't.

klopyrev is almost certainly telling the truth, and you're doing much to convince me that you're the final mafia.

[Jester]

So, six people left, four required to lynch. But opinions seem to be hardening. Let's see:

Sir Tornado.

Current vote: klopyrev. Utterly convinced that klopyrev is lying. Banging the drum hard for a klopyrev lynch. Has a FOS out for Numenorean.

Numenorean7.

Current vote: none. Seems convinced that klopyrev is lying. No other current suspects.

klopyrev.

Current vote: Numenorean7. Claims to be the Vigilante, and claims to be out of bullets. Wants both Sir Tornado and Numenorean7 dead.

Jester.

Current vote: SPAG. Has stated his vote is locked. Convinced that klopyrev is telling the truth. Believes there to be a mafia role-blocker. Very suspicious of Sir Tornado. (Let's make that official:

FOS: Sir Tornado

.) A tiny bit wary of AmeliaLi. Believes Numenorean7 to be a townie.

AmeliaLi.

Current vote: SPAG. Has stated her vote is locked. Doesn't like how SPAG's first move was to lynch ryan. No other current suspects.

SPAG.

Current vote: klopyrev. "I think Klopyrev's plan is cracking and he's getting desperate." No other current suspects.

So, two votes for klopyrev, two votes for SPAG. I'm convinced SPAG is scum and will not vote for klopyrev. klopyrev isn't gonna vote for himself again, I don't think. That means, Sir Tornado, that you need to convince AmeliaLi and Numenorean7 to vote your way.

Sir Tornado, as for your 893, I read your theory and reject it. It seems reasonably clear to me based on how he posts votes, lynch results, and the like, that Kison is a relatively inexperienced mod and I think he

would

have answered questions from klopyrev or provided him with additional information rather than just saying nothing to klopyrev. He says in his 902 that he'll only mod-kill at his discretion. That convinces me that klopyrev is telling the truth. Kison thought about mod-killing klopyrev, and for some reason, rejected the idea. Again, I ain't voting for him.

I'm not gonna get SPAG to vote for himself, and it seems clear that Sir Tornado isn't gonna vote for anyone but klopyrev or Numenorean (if that's wrong, ST, then by all means, tell me). Ergo, my next logical question is: Numenorean, klopyrev, what's your read on SPAG?

[Jester]

What the hell? You realize that your reasons for Nume are the EXACT same as the ones that you used for your reasons for voting ST?

He's already said that (his 867 and 913), so yeah, I think he realizes it.

[Jester]

Jester, why are you convinced that Numeronean7 is town?

100% convinced? No. Call it 90% convinced. I've been getting a town vibe from Numenorean most of the game. His only scum-tell in the game was his participation in the Nano and ryan lynches, and he's been doing his best to help the town track down scum. He was the first person to voice suspicions about Lowell and was the first person to point out that Lowell's participation in this game didn't track with his participation in other games.

However, the thing I find most compelling is that while the AmeliaLi band-wagon was going on, Lowell had a vote against you. And so did Numenorean. And nobody else. I find it really hard to believe that two scum would, all by themselves and so early in the game, both vote for the same person. Lowell and Numenorean were also the first two people to vote for ryan in his eventual lynch, and I find it hard to believe that two scum would do that, either.

So yeah, I'm reasonably convinced he's a townie.

Why do you think he's scum, klopyrev? And what do you think about SPAG?

[Jester]

If you can point out to me in which post Numeronean7 accused Lowell, I will change that order.

Earliest example, his 128.

[Jester]

I am the town's role-blocker. I blocked Sir Tornado last night. I thought we must have two more scum, but if blocking ST prevented a night-kill, we must only have one. In addition, I blocked klopyrev on nights one, two, and three. His totally insane play prompted me to block him, and I kept it up after he said he was bored with the game. I figured he was a power-role, and as I said, I figured he was the SK. That's why when he role-claimed Vigilante, I believed him.

I'm sorry about what happened with SPAG, but I was sure he was another mafia. The idea of having only two mafia in a twelve person game never even occurred to me.

But the fact that we apparently only have one mafia left makes Sir Tornado's claim a lie. If AmeliaLi and klopyrev were both mafia, a) we still would have had a dead body last night, and b) the game would already be over. (a) is true because blocking one mafia out of two does not prevent the kill (I checked this with Kison when I was given this role). (b) is true because after klopyrev killed someone, we would have had two mafia and two townies, thus ending the game with a mafia win.

I can believe Sir Tornado is

a

role-blocker... specifically, the mafia role-blocker. But he's not the town-allied role-blocker. That's me.

vote: Sir Tornado

[Jester]

Yeah, the only other thing I can think of is that the mafia believed klopyrev's role-claim and decided against NKing someone to try to get me to out myself. But if there are two mafia left, they didn't have to do that. When I blocked ST, the other would have made the NK and won the game, unless I'm missing something.

Only two mafia doesn't make any sense to me either, unless ST

is

a mafia role-blocker and Kison thought that would balance out having so many pro-town roles.

But sure, I'm willing to wait to hear from AmeliaLi and klopyrev.

[Jester]

All right, fellow townies, we have the mafia on the run and we're in striking distance of winning this one. We have two more chances to win this game:

a) we can lynch the last mafia today; or,
b) if we don't lynch me, I can role-block someone tonight and if I guess right (50/50 chance at that point), we'll get a day seven and we'll get one more chance then.

Hopefully, we can all agree that I'm telling the truth and I'm the townie role-blocker. Sir Tornado certainly seemed to believe me.

For the record, I blocked AmeliaLi last night. I think she's our last mafia. But she might have followed Sir Tornado's advice and not submitted a night-kill.

I'll get into why I think it's AmeliaLi tomorrow.

[Jester]

I don't know how much of this I can get into without violating the "no PM from the mod" rule, but Kison and I had a long back-and-forth convo about how being the role-blocker would work as the game was ramping up. I asked a

lot

of questions. He led me to believe that blocking a mafia member would not work unless it was the last mafia member.

He definitely did not tell me that he'd be asking the mafia for which member of theirs would make the kill each night. Guess I should have asked if he'd be doing that.

And if I were the third mafia or allied with the mafia, after SPAG died in post 933, I would not have blocked Sir Tornado. He or I would have just made a kill and then won the game for the mafia right there.

[Jester]

OK, here's the situation. With four people and one scum,

everyone

has to vote for one person, or we deadlock.

I know I'm a townie. I'm convinced klopyrev is also a townie. He had no way of knowing he was being blocked, and only started complaining and asking how this could have happened after he was out of other options. His posts around this sound completely sincere to me. Amelia, Numenorean, if you want to dispute this and start attacking klopyrev, go for it. I'll listen with interest. But as far as I'm concerned, he's clear.

That leaves the two of you.

As I said, I think it's Amelia. Two reasons have to do with votes. Here's the vote on ryan:
:arrow: ryan (lynched, 798): Lowell

(Scum)

, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado

(Scum)

, klopyrev, SPAG

(Townie)

, curiouskarmadog

(Townie)

If Numenorean is scum, that means all three scum voted right away to take down ryan. All three of them also voted on Nano on day one. I find it nearly impossible to believe that scum would do this. In addition, earlier in the game, when the band-wagon on Amelia was forming, Numenorean and Lowell were voting all by themselves for klopyrev. I can't see scum voting back-to-back, much less back-to-back-to-back.

Sir Tornado was attacking AmeliaLi pretty hard and in my experience, scum (particularly experienced scum who are good at it, and certainly Sir Tornado is that!) tend to go after each other as hard or harder than other townies. Read his 833, in particular.

I have reasons to suspect AmeliaLi for herself, though, too. Let's start with

this

:

And question, how are we at lylo?? Seeing as how we have 8 people and 3 scum. If we lynch another townie and they kill one tonight, THEN we're at lynch or loose.

Her 810, after ryan was lynched. Amelia knew exactly how many scum we had before any of them died. I find that fascinating.

Her 884 is also fascinating, in context:

I have not agreed with anything in this game as much as I agree with that statement.

Even if ST is town, he's still played a brilliant game.

A response to me saying that if Sir Tornado was scum, and had played a brilliant game to that point in my 883. His game became somewhat less brilliant when he started beating the drum for a klopyrev mod-kill. A massive, massive, stupid mistake on his part.

She's also been playing extremely aggressively all game, immediately lashing out at anyone who attacks her, usually with profanity or open contempt or hatred involved. But then klopyrev managed to attack Sir Tornado and Lowell (two scum, mind) in the same post, his 821. Really well, too! So well that Amelia immediately wrote

this

:

Day two, I was slightly missing you not being there Klopy-boy, but now... i remember how much of an idiot you can be. Shut. Up.

Her 822. I find that even more fascinating.

When Gatorguy91 had the temerity to say "IMO I half agree with klop", Amelia's response? "What half?" Her 824. Then no response when he answered "Lowell". Fishing for other people's scum beliefs, most likely. Gatorguy probably signed his death warrant in that response.

However, I'm not completely closed to the idea that it could be Numenorean. In 224, Sir Tornado gives a massive analysis of AmeliaLi's early play. Numenorean, at the time (your 227), you found Sir Tornado's post interesting and seemed to agree with it. Given that he's now confirmed scum, any new thoughts? Also, in his 452, he lists AmeliaLi as scum, and you as a townie, which in context is certainly interesting!

Numenorean's helped kill more townies than anyone, and not helped kill any scum at all, and in fact on the day I was gunning for Lowell, he was gunning for Gatorguy, the cop (his 832). So, that deserves some commentary on your part.

And now, I await, with interest, posts from Numenorean and Amelia. I won't be voting for a good while.

[Jester]

I'm sitting here reading this and I find myself at a loss of words. I'm just gonna claim. I'm a vanilla townie.

Um, yeah. Claiming ain't gonna do it. You need to answer my questions, not claim.

1. Do you agree that praising Sir Tornado to the skies in your 884 makes you look pretty bad now?
2. How exactly did you know that we had three mafia in this game, per your 810? None of the townies knew this.
3. Why did you attack klopyrev so bitterly in your 822 when he attacked Sir Tornado and Lowell in his 821?

And now a new question.

And Jester, do not think i'm just accepting your claim.

4. If my claim isn't the truth, why didn't Sir Tornado and his partner NK someone after SPAG was killed? The mafia would have won the game if they'd done so.

[Jester]

Two reasons. This is one:

If I were my scum partner, I would NOT make any kills tonight.

His 948. Implies pretty strongly that he's got one more partner.

Second reason, SKs typically

must

(not may, must) send in a kill each night. Otherwise, every SK would wait until the final stages of the game to start their spree to keep the town off them. Even if this was a rare case where we had a SK that had the option of deferring their night-kill, I think the SK would have been killing the last two nights.

[Jester]

Well?

[Jester]

I'm also here.

[Jester]

Is it just me, or is finding a replacement going to totally suck at this late stage in the game?

[Jester]

mod

: What are the rules for active players talking to other players after they've been lynched? Obviously, the conversation ryan mentions took place after ryan was lynched but before Sir Tornado was.

If Sir Tornado was either trying to press ryan for information while Sir Tornado was still an active player, or sharing information with ryan while Sir Tornado was still an active player sufficient to alter the course of the game now, that would seem to be grounds for a mod-kill of the final mafia member and declaration of a town victory.

[Jester]

I apologize but due to a conversation that I had (I don't remember but apparently I had) with Sir Tornado, I have to withdraw from the game. Sorry Kison but after reading the conversation I had with Sir Tornado I now know more than I should, so I have to withdraw. I'm sorry.

While we wait, anyone want to give their interpretation of this?

[Jester]

And Numenorean? What do you think?

[Jester]

I don't know, klopy's interperetation seems to assume that ryan is not Mafia. If he was, wouldn't talking with his scumbuddy be OK?

I was thinking more or less the same thing. If ryan had a conversation with Sir Tornado and he now "knows more than he should", then it seems likely that he knows more than he should about the last mafia member.

But that implies rather strongly that ryan himself, replacing Amelia,

wasn't

the last mafia member.

I could see it as a giant mafia trick, ryan claiming to have had a convo with ST in the hopes of throwing suspicion off AmeliaLi... except for the fact that Kison seems to agree that the conversation(s, more than one, apparently) happened and some game information was exchanged.

Therefore, if this interpretation is correct, someone other than AmeliaLi is the last mafia member.

[Jester]

P.S. But I also welcome an alternative explanation.

[Jester]

Nope, just role-blocker, and I win when the town wins.

[Jester]

Hi vampyrusddg. Welcome to the game! And yeah, as you can see, I was thinking your predecessor was our final mafia but now that I see the exchange info between Sir Tornado and ryan, plus Numenorean's interesting little response, I'm now pretty sure it's him.

Tell me, Numenorean, same question I had for Amelia: if I'm a mafia role-blocker, why didn't Sir Tornado and I just kill a townie to win the game after SPAG was lynched?

[Jester]

vote: Numenorean7

Yeah, not exactly inspired play by either side, though the mafia had a great, great opening three days. I screwed up this game more than I got right.

[Jester]

Also... ye gods... that means

klopyrev

was right all along, and (assuming he's telling the truth) would have nailed two mafia with his two bullets. I find that scary as hell.

[Jester]

Code: Select all

~~Night Four~~
Jester Blocked          : Sir Tornado                   ->Success
Mafia Killed            : AmeliaLi(By Numenorean7)      ->Failed 

I assume that's a typo and Sir Tornado actually attempted the NK.

Good game, mafia. You really played that well the first three days. It was only luck and Sir Tornado's over-reaction to klopyrev that turned this one in the town's favor. Even without that, Sir Tornado and Numenorean in particular had a good game going there.

[Jester]

Oh, and whose tactic was it for the entire mafia to vote for ryan, first-second-third, on day two? Sir Tornado's? It strikes me as hugely risky, but it paid off.

Code: Select all

Ryan             (6) : Lowell, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, klopyrev, SPAG, curiouskarmadog