Magic: The Gathering,GO TEAM MS!

[PeregrineV]

Going to ask in here, at the Grand Prix level, if time is called and th alast 5 turns are played, and both players are still alive at the end of those 5 turns, is it a draw, or is there a winner based on some criteria?

[Klazam]

draw.

[Thestatusquo]

Going to ask in here, at the Grand Prix level, if time is called and th alast 5 turns are played, and both players are still alive at the end of those 5 turns, is it a draw, or is there a winner based on some criteria?

Couple things to keep in mind here. The most important point is 3. I have seen SO many newer players get DQd from tournaments for this when they had no idea they were even doing anything wrong.

1) The rules prescribe several scenarios. If it is game 2, then the player who won the first game wins the match 1-0. If it is game 1 or game 3 then the game is a draw.
2) However, it often correct etiquette in a grand prix setting (where a draw helps neither player, especially day 1) for one player to concede to the other one depending on if they felt that player was likely to win the game given more turns. This is often best brought up before the five turns are called, but don't be afraid to ask for a scoop if you feel like you were a huge favorite to win that game and don't be afraid to concede if you feel like you were a huge dog to win that game.
3) It's worth noting here that this ends up getting some players in trouble. It is illegal to use any outside method to determine the winner of a game. This includes flipping a coin, rolling dice, rock paper scissors, looking at the top X cards of your library to see what might have been drawn by each player. Anything that you can think of to determine that game of magic that was not public info at the time of that game of magic. If you do anything like this, it is improperly determining the outcome and you can and will be DQ'd if a judge sees you do it.
4) Some people will get upset if you ask for the win, just say something like "it's fine if you'd prefer to draw. I just asked because a draw helps neither of us and I was winning on board. But go ahead and mark the draw on the slip and I'll sign it. Some people will ask you to scoop and be upset when you don't do it. Use your best judgement here. I am likely to lose I always scoop, and if I was likely to win I always ask for a concession. If the outcome is unclear, I usually don't think either of these things should happen. Like I said. Use your judgement, don't get flustered by your opponent pressuring you.

[Sudo_Nym]

If there's no winner at the end of 5 turns, the match is to be decided in the Thunderdome.

[PeregrineV]

Going to ask in here, at the Grand Prix level, if time is called and th alast 5 turns are played, and both players are still alive at the end of those 5 turns, is it a draw, or is there a winner based on some criteria?

Couple things to keep in mind here. The most important point is 3. I have seen SO many newer players get DQd from tournaments for this when they had no idea they were even doing anything wrong.

1) The rules prescribe several scenarios. If it is game 2, then the player who won the first game wins the match 1-0. If it is game 1 or game 3 then the game is a draw.
2) However, it often correct etiquette in a grand prix setting (where a draw helps neither player, especially day 1) for one player to concede to the other one depending on if they felt that player was likely to win the game given more turns. This is often best brought up before the five turns are called, but don't be afraid to ask for a scoop if you feel like you were a huge favorite to win that game and don't be afraid to concede if you feel like you were a huge dog to win that game.
3) It's worth noting here that this ends up getting some players in trouble. It is illegal to use any outside method to determine the winner of a game. This includes flipping a coin, rolling dice, rock paper scissors, looking at the top X cards of your library to see what might have been drawn by each player. Anything that you can think of to determine that game of magic that was not public info at the time of that game of magic. If you do anything like this, it is improperly determining the outcome and you can and will be DQ'd if a judge sees you do it.
4) Some people will get upset if you ask for the win, just say something like "it's fine if you'd prefer to draw. I just asked because a draw helps neither of us and I was winning on board. But go ahead and mark the draw on the slip and I'll sign it. Some people will ask you to scoop and be upset when you don't do it. Use your best judgement here. I am likely to lose I always scoop, and if I was likely to win I always ask for a concession. If the outcome is unclear, I usually don't think either of these things should happen. Like I said. Use your judgement, don't get flustered by your opponent pressuring you.

Want to discuss this more after work...

[Thestatusquo]

Sure.

BV:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... drid-pods/ what do you think?

[bv310]

Hooray for coverage! I'm a huge fan of Kevin Grove's list. It's basically the same deck I'm running right now, except I haven't put the second Archangel in, though it's possible that that's the right play, since she has a shitload of value with a lot of the rest of the deck. I'm temped to test a singleton Cartel Aristocrat, for the extra combo with Archangel+Finks, but I'm not sure if that's too cute. Choke is hilarious out of the board, as is Worship. Having Bolt-proof creatures is a really important part of doing well right now. (I'm also tempted to try Abzan Charm instead of Chord of Calling. It's removal or card draw depending on what you need, and has the occasional fringe value of pumping a creature for lethal or gaining extra life off of Spike Feeder.

[PeregrineV]

Going to ask in here, at the Grand Prix level, if time is called and th alast 5 turns are played, and both players are still alive at the end of those 5 turns, is it a draw, or is there a winner based on some criteria?

Couple things to keep in mind here. The most important point is 3. I have seen SO many newer players get DQd from tournaments for this when they had no idea they were even doing anything wrong.

1) The rules prescribe several scenarios. If it is game 2, then the player who won the first game wins the match 1-0. If it is game 1 or game 3 then the game is a draw.
2) However, it often correct etiquette in a grand prix setting (where a draw helps neither player, especially day 1) for one player to concede to the other one depending on if they felt that player was likely to win the game given more turns. This is often best brought up before the five turns are called, but don't be afraid to ask for a scoop if you feel like you were a huge favorite to win that game and don't be afraid to concede if you feel like you were a huge dog to win that game.
3) It's worth noting here that this ends up getting some players in trouble. It is illegal to use any outside method to determine the winner of a game. This includes flipping a coin, rolling dice, rock paper scissors, looking at the top X cards of your library to see what might have been drawn by each player. Anything that you can think of to determine that game of magic that was not public info at the time of that game of magic. If you do anything like this, it is improperly determining the outcome and you can and will be DQ'd if a judge sees you do it.
4) Some people will get upset if you ask for the win, just say something like "it's fine if you'd prefer to draw. I just asked because a draw helps neither of us and I was winning on board. But go ahead and mark the draw on the slip and I'll sign it. Some people will ask you to scoop and be upset when you don't do it. Use your best judgement here. I am likely to lose I always scoop, and if I was likely to win I always ask for a concession. If the outcome is unclear, I usually don't think either of these things should happen. Like I said. Use your judgement, don't get flustered by your opponent pressuring you.

Want to discuss this more after work...

I did not know #1 about the game 2 thing. so it can never be 1-0-1 officially?

We played the draw method before, but occasionally at FNM we get people who go by life total. Since they are not regulars, I usually tend to just let it go (and it depends on how nice they are) so they have a pleasant experience. I would rather go to the GP as fully informed as possible.

#2- I really like to play to win. Sometimes, I may make an incorrect assumption, and don't want to inadvertently scoop based on my incorrect assumption. If I am mathematically going to get smashed and have no answers in my hand, then I'll scoop. Otherwise, my last GP had some of the dickest Magic players I ever met. If they were one or 2 turns from a bomb, I still wouldn't want to give them the win for being pricks. I'll take the draw, since, technically, I was alive, he was alive after 5 turns.

But, I see your point, and with standard it will probably become more obvious who would have won (it was sealed before).

#3- So if I "make a decision" based totally on the board state at the time of the draw, then that's fine, but anything else is bad?

#4 is good advice. I have never asked for the scoop, but almost every time a player does scoop, they are pissed about it. I can't imagine anyone going gracefully.

For my part, if someone just needs to attack me to win, and they don't play too conservatively, then I'll say "You got me" and scoop, but if they pull stuff that could conceivably give me another turn (even during the 5 turns), then I feel like a draw is fair, should it happen.

[Shanba]

Went 4-3 at my PTQ; played what felt like a relatively powerful Jeskai deck (Herald of Anafenza, Mantis Rider, High Sentinels of Arashin, Kheru Spellsnatcher; not played: Narset) but was lacking in removal other than basically one Kill Shot and a few tempo plays (Crippling Chills, Force Away) and lost the first two rounds before rattling off four straight wins and closing with a loss in the last round. A last round win wouldn't have even likely gotten me into prize support because there were so many X-2 players and my breakers were so awful.

Curious about your thoughts on the Herald of Anafenza. I think the card is pretty good, but it is glacially slow. Have you been impressed with it generally?

[Thestatusquo]

1) Yes, it can be 1-0-1. Life totals are a gray area. I would say that its probably not improperly determining a winner, but I will also say that I think its a really shitty method for seeing who is going to win a game. Am I winning because I cracked 2 fetch lands and you cracked 3? Am I losing because you're an aggro deck and you got me down to 10 before I cast my board sweeper?

2) Of course. Scooping or not scooping is entirely a personal decision. I just tend to scoop if I'm behind because a draw is literally the same thing as a loss d1 of a GP. Likewise I ask for the scoop if I'm ahead. (noting this comes after the 5 turns. When the game is already a draw) You're not losing anything from scooping in that situation because, as I already said, you need 7 wins to get to day 2. You don't get any consolation for winning 6 games and drawing one. There are definitely plenty of games that at the end of 5 turns it is not apparent who would have won. But, its totally personal preference and its totally subjective whether you think its the right call. Don't ever scoop before the 5 turns are up either. Always play it out. It should be noted here that players being dicks to me is definitely a factor in my mind. Why should I help you out if you're being a douche? Answer: I wont.

3) Basically yes. Nothing outside the game can be used. Comparing hands and flipping over top cards of decks is considered (outside of the game) though they're more lenient on the hand thing. I still wouldn't do it though.

4) You'll find, shockingly, that a large portion of magic players are a) assholes and b) have a highly inflated sense of their own skill level. This leads to the behavior you're describing. I feel like there is a curve of skill level vs being a dick, where as someone gets better at the game up to a certain point they are more of a dick until they cross some threshold of skill and realize they don't need to be a dick to succeed at magic so they start become less of an asshole. Also, I think with more experienced large tournament players the idea of scooping out at the end of a draw is well known and you won't get any weird looks about it. Someone coming from FNM however is going to not understand and feel like the person is trying to take advantage of them, because in FNM draws matter, but in early rounds of GPs they don't.

Especially if you're like in the x-2 round and you go to time. One of you needs to scoop. There is no reason to draw and take both of you out of day two for no reason. This is why I'm always especially nice to my x-2 opponents! JK, but being nice does help.

it's not that its fair, its that it helps neither of you, so its really something you want to avoid if possible.

There are other considerations also. For instance, suppose your deck has a really bad matchup against UB control. The most likely decks to be in the draw bracket are UB control because UB-UB mirrors are the most likely matches to get draws. By drawing you are essentially making yourself have like a 10x more likely chance of playing against your worst matchup that way, so you should scoop to avoid the draw bracket.

[Klazam]

There are other considerations also. For instance, suppose your deck has a really bad matchup against UB control. The most likely decks to be in the draw bracket are UB control because UB-UB mirrors are the most likely matches to get draws. By drawing you are essentially making yourself have like a 10x more likely chance of playing against your worst matchup that way, so you should scoop to avoid the draw bracket.

on the flip side- am i more likely to win vs the decks getting draws? I've always wondered if its correct play to play for a draw just for that?

[Thestatusquo]

Seems unlikely to me. In my mind its only correct in the original example because you're not really giving anything up to improve your matchups. If you have to take a draw instead of a win then I think the value of -1 win is likely to be way more than the value of +2/3 favorable matchups.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Went 4-3 at my PTQ; played what felt like a relatively powerful Jeskai deck (Herald of Anafenza, Mantis Rider, High Sentinels of Arashin, Kheru Spellsnatcher; not played: Narset) but was lacking in removal other than basically one Kill Shot and a few tempo plays (Crippling Chills, Force Away) and lost the first two rounds before rattling off four straight wins and closing with a loss in the last round. A last round win wouldn't have even likely gotten me into prize support because there were so many X-2 players and my breakers were so awful.

Curious about your thoughts on the Herald of Anafenza. I think the card is pretty good, but it is glacially slow. Have you been impressed with it generally?

I mean there's a bunch of uncommons I pick over it in draft but it's a fine role player doing a bunch of useful things. For example in my deck it helped with the insane curveout (on the play) of Herald into War Name Aspriant (turning it into a 3/2) and then Mantis Rider attacking for 7 on turn 3. It also allows you to miss a turn 3 play in this format and not just be dead (assuming you have a turn 4 play) and turn 3 outlast into High Sentinels is amazing specifically.

[Thestatusquo]

If anyone has any cards they're looking to buylist, hit me up. I'll pay better than normal buy list prices. Mainly looking for EDH and standard cards.

I've got a friend who is opening up a store and he wants me to run the singles case in exchange for taking some off the top. Let me know if anyone has any standard stuff or edh stuff they'd like to dump for cash monies.

[PeregrineV]

OK, this is the budget Azban deck I was shooting for.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/100 ... reanimator

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [KTK] Sandsteppe Citadel
3 [KTK] Jungle Hollow
3 [KTK] Blossoming Sands
3 [KTK] Plains (2)
2 [M13] Swamp (3)
5 [ZEN] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [KTK] Siege Rhino
1 [THS] Ashen Rider
4 [M15] Satyr Wayfinder
4 [FBP] Rattleclaw Mystic
4 [M15] Elvish Mystic
3 [M15] Hornet Queen
2 [M15] Resolute Archangel

// Spells
2 [THS] Whip of Erebos
2 [KTK] Murderous Cut
2 [M15] Endless Obedience
4 [THS] Commune with the Gods
3 [JOU] Nyx Weaver
2 [JOU] Banishing Light
1 [KTK] Empty the Pits
1 [KTK] See the Unwritten

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [KTK] Despise
SB: 3 [BNG] Bile Blight
SB: 3 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [KTK] Necropolis Fiend
SB: 3 [KTK] Abzan Charm

[PeregrineV]

This is what I ended up with.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands (21)
3 [KTK] Blossoming Sands
4 [ZEN] Forest
4 [KTK] Sandsteppe Citadel
3 [KTK] Jungle Hollow
3 [KTK] Plains
3 [M13] Swamp
1 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures (26)
1 [KTK] Swarm of Bloodflies
1 [THS] Medomai the Ageless
4 [M15] Satyr Wayfinder
2 [FBP] Rattleclaw Mystic
1 [M15] Undergrowth Scavenger
4 [KTK] Siege Rhino
4 [M15] Elvish Mystic
2 [M15] Resolute Archangel
1 [THS] Fleecemane Lion
2 [M15] Hornet Queen
1 [THS] Sylvan Caryatid
1 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
2 [JOU] Nyx Weaver

// Spells (13)
2 [KTK] Utter End
1 [M15] Liliana Vess
2 [THS] Whip of Erebos
1 [THS] Hero's Downfall
1 [KTK] Empty the Pits
1 [KTK] See the Unwritten
2 [M15] Endless Obedience
2 [THS] Commune with the Gods
1 [JOU] Banishing Light

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [BNG] Bile Blight
SB: 1 [KTK] Necropolis Fiend
SB: 2 [KTK] Abzan Charm
SB: 1 [KTK] Death Frenzy
SB: 1 [THS] Spear of Heliod
SB: 1 [M15] Undergrowth Scavenger
SB: 3 [KTK] Despise
SB: 3 [M15] Back to Nature

[PeregrineV]

I have 2 more lilianas. Should I include her? and take out something else? I have 2 Caves of Kolios (WB). Should I use those instead of something else?

And other thoughts or opinions?

[Shanba]

liliana is probably a better bet than some of the one ofs - medomai the ageless seems very hard to cast (just caryatid and rattleclaw?). Swarm of bloodflies and undergrowth scavenger are also a little underwhelming, particularly the bloodflies. The mana looks a little strange - I think there are too many dorks and not enough lands overall, and rather a large number of 7 drops - and if you have any copies of murderous cut, that would be a good way to get secondary use out of the nyx weavers and communes filling your graveyard.

Besides that - yeah, looks budget, but just having 4 siege rhinos in your deck is going to do wonders.

[Thestatusquo]

In your version (with all the little mana dorks) it seems pretty much nonsense to not run wingmate roc (its not THAT expensive)

You're going to be able to trigger raid consistantly, and also the roc whip interaction with raid just nets you a free 3/4 flier.

[PeregrineV]

The weird high casting stuff is supposd to be for whip and empty the pits and endless obidiene- at least that is the way I understand the deck is supposed to work.

[PeregrineV]

Murderous cut was mentioned as the budget version of utter end and heroes downfall. I didn't hAve enough communes so I put my removal mainboard.

[PeregrineV]

The roc didn't make the budget cut this time, maybe upgrade next month.

I think the large number of mana dorks is because of the high casting cost creatures that is says can maybe be hardcasted.

[PeregrineV]

So far testing if it can hold its own Against jeskI fireworks and rich man's azban midrange. Wins about half the time.
Not yet used against live person. Lol

[PeregrineV]

So far testing if it can hold its own Against jeskI fireworks and rich man's azban midrange. Wins about half the time.
Not yet used against live person. Lol

[bv310]

So here's info for you: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/10 ... s-of#notes

No Wedges at all in Dragons of Tarkir.