Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[MrBuddyLee]

Mgm, please take for granted for a moment that I was telling the truth about thinking Glork was the cop and covering his tracks the day CDB was lynched.

Please explain your case for voting me in the absence of that incorrect assumption you've made.

[Glork]

I arrived at my conclusion through a combination of all of the processes except "giving up" to some extent. CES's play has not looked good to me. Though recklessness is his MO, I feel that he has taken it overboard. Even today, in endgame, I've tried to get CES to give some kind of actual justification for *ANY* of the stances he has taken. He refuses to do so, saying that he has just gotten "vague feelings." He has taken an approach of following others, riding people's coattails, and acting as though because he's being open about his uninspired play, it will grant him some kind of protection from my repeated inquiries.

I do not think that Thesp is scum. I do not think that Patrick is scum. Thus, I think that CES's scumbuddy is either Mgm or MBL. I currently am undecided as to which one I find more likely, though I will admit that I am leaning slightly towards CES/Mgm in spite of the innocent result which Adele got on him.

If you've been paying attention, MBL, you would have seen that I *have* been grilling CES. Mgm is not where I would like to lynch today, simply because if CES happens to be the Godfather, Mgm would necessarily be pro-town. Like I said, I've tried to get CES to elaborate on all of his behavior -- including his suspicion of you -- yet he is at a total loss for any actual solid reason for thinking that you are scum. I finally decided that CES's stubbornness is not because he's bad at articulating a case against somebody, but

because he doesn't actually have a legitimate case against you.

He's blowing steam and hoping it'll obscure our vision. (Note that this does not mean he couldn't be busing you -- just that his method of play is very dubious to me.)

[MrBuddyLee]

If you've been paying attention, MBL, you would have seen that I *have* been grilling CES. Like I said, I've tried to get CES to elaborate on all of his behavior -- including his suspicion of you -- yet he is at a total loss for any actual solid reason for thinking that you are scum.

Nice attempt at redirect. My comment was actually:

You've expressed displeasure with both of their votes on me, and yet haven't asked either one of them a single probing question about the reasoning behind their votes!

13 comments from you re: MBL since CES voted. Not one asking him anything about his vote. Not one asking Mgm for the reasons behind his vote. That's why I ask if you're "giving up", because you're certainly not trying to understand people's motivations for the most important vote in the game thus far. Since you've said you're not giving up, I'm left wondering why you're not asking them these critical questions.

[MrBuddyLee]

Actually, you posted:

CES:
Do you have some sort of aversion to making your analyses known to the rest of the town?
Do you expect anybody to accept you repeatedly saying "MGM and Glork are town" and "I am correct" and "I found Thesp as the Godfather" without substantiating those statements at all?
Do you feel that at least trying to explain your thoughts could in any way hurt your chances of convincing anybody else to agree with you?

Which I suppose meets the minimum requirements for curiosity, though it's not really asking him why he's voting for me. I don't think you ever asked Mgm about his votes on me either. Probably because you've been happy with those votes for whatever reason, but if you're town that shouldn't be good enough. How would you differentiate busing from legitimate suspicion?

[Mgm]

I think CES has climbed the ladder of suspiciousness

Can you be more specific? When did he climb it? How high has he climbed it? What did he do? This could mean almost anything.

Is there anything else you want me to broadcast to the scum?

I still don't understand how you can be okay with you asking everyone's hypothetical lynch target and everyone's most trusted player, then getting all huffy when somebody asks you to give your opinions on CES.

That don't make no sense to me.

I'm okay with with someone asking, just not the person who refuses to answer me. He first refuses to answer me and now suddenly his own questions enter the realm that just moments ago were scummy to him. I don't see how telling if CES is 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th on the list is gonna help anything.

I intentionally kept my own questions restricted to the basic neccesitities. Thesp seems to be working to a complete suspect list. Are you telling me you want those shared?

[Mgm]

Glork, if you're ready to vote, you must have incredible confidence that CES is scum and you must have a pretty good idea of who his scumpartner is.

Why should he know that already? There's a whole lot of info to be had from today's voting patterns and whatever happens tomorrow. There's plenty of opportunities to collect definitive evidence.

[Mgm]

Mgm, please take for granted for a moment that I was telling the truth about thinking Glork was the cop and covering his tracks the day CDB was lynched.

Please explain your case for voting me in the absence of that incorrect assumption you've made.

I have given other reasons and you discredited them all by somehow calling them crap and nonsensical. Even if we forget that one bit, there's also the fact you did what you did what the scum would be doing according to your own analysis (even though you said that is not the case afterwards).

And the whole "discredit Mgm's theories" is very unlike you (or anyone). In the X years I've played I've seen a lot, but I can remember only one time my play was being called stupid and that was by a scumbag DragonPhoenix who went on to claim a non-existent role and get himself lynched.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why should he know that already? There's a whole lot of info to be had from today's voting patterns and whatever happens tomorrow. There's plenty of opportunities to collect definitive evidence.

You're naive or scum if you're not paying close attention to potential scumpartnerships as you analyze the current gamestate.

[MrBuddyLee]

The reason I've been mistrustful/disdainful of your arguments is because they're chock-full of misleading snarky sniping BS like this, your summary after I made a ton of posts explaining how I was going after Zindy for several information-related reasons, and you distilled the argument to:

So first you say you want him to tie himself to his buddies and now you admit he wouldn't talk anyway.

It's near impossible to make a solid case against a lurker, which is why I expect most players stayed away from it. I'd like to know why you thought there was a case to begin with, because I ain't seeing it.

Why you would want to lynch an inactive player is beyond me. They will die of a modkill or be replaced eventually, but trying to get them to connect themselves to their buddies won't work and setting your sights on a lynch when it's clear the affected player won't return is just stupid.

It's just sophomoric--you distorted every argument to the point of absurdity. And I can't carry on arguments with people who won't proceed logically, so all I can do is point out how your arguments are not addressing the actual statements I made.

[Mgm]

Why should he know that already? There's a whole lot of info to be had from today's voting patterns and whatever happens tomorrow. There's plenty of opportunities to collect definitive evidence.

You're naive or scum if you're not paying close attention to potential scumpartnerships as you analyze the current gamestate.

Oh, I'm looking at potential partnerships allright, but Glork does not need to have "a pretty good idea" who it is before voting. All he needs to know before he votes is if CES is scum. (If he doesn't tell, he might get lucky and see his top suspect nightkilled)

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork does not need to have "a pretty good idea" who it is before voting. All he needs to know before he votes is if CES is scum. (If he doesn't tell, he might get lucky and see his top suspect nightkilled)

This from the guy who asked two days ago:

If you had to put all your eggs in one basket right now and vote, who'd get the chop? Who are you least willing to lynch?

Epiphany or gambit? It looks to me like you're just arguing for the sake of argument at this point, because you're contradicting yourself.

This horse has now officially been beaten to death. RIP Buttercup.

Back on topic, if anyone told me Thesp was their top suspect, I'd look at them cross-eyed, largely because of scumpair circumstances. And then I'd ask them for their logic, and if they didn't address a certain requirement of Thesp's scumship, I'd strongly suspect they were sloppy lying scum.

[Mgm]

So I'm fairly confident in eliminating:

Glork-Patrick
Glork-Thesp
Thesp-Patrick
as our scumpair, meaning that I'm in the unique position of knowing that Thesp can only be scum if he's paired with CES.

How do you combine that with the fact CES is at his throat. Do you see it as bussing?

[Mgm]

Glork does not need to have "a pretty good idea" who it is before voting. All he needs to know before he votes is if CES is scum. (If he doesn't tell, he might get lucky and see his top suspect nightkilled)

This from the guy who asked two days ago:

If you had to put all your eggs in one basket right now and vote, who'd get the chop? Who are you least willing to lynch?

Epiphany or gambit? It looks to me like you're just arguing for the sake of argument at this point, because you're contradicting yourself.

I don't see my question mention anything about scum partners for your top suspects because I didn't ask about that.

[MrBuddyLee]

How do you combine that with the fact CES is at his throat. Do you see it as bussing?

*whoosh*

I don't see my question mention anything about scum partners for your top suspects because I didn't ask about that.

Each of us has four people we suspect. If someone tells you the person they want to lynch most and the person they're least likely to lynch, that leaves two suspects to fill the role of scumpartner. And in many cases, one of those two is already eliminated as a possibility, so your questions are nearly equivalent to asking a person who the scumpartner of their #1 is.

[Mgm]

In case no one noticed, the scum can win by lynching anyone but their partner. Therefore it's extremely unlikely that someone who commits to voting for someone early on is paired with them. People who don't want to lynch each other are possibly connected (though be on the lookout for changing behavior that doesn't fit what was said). I'll leave scum pairings for myself for others to analyse (I'll leave them out because I know I'm innocent myself). I've distilled things down to the following possibly pairs based on voting behavior and the answers to my questions (with the assumption that scum would've quicklynched MBL if they could:

MBL/Glork
MBL/Patrick
MBL/Thesp

So despite the fact 4 people want to see CES dead, MBL has the most possibly connections left. I was hoping for the analysis to give me other ideas, but it only confirmed MBL is my lynch.

(I'll post the spreadsheet as soon as I get the chance.)

[Patrick]

In case no one noticed, the scum can win by lynching anyone but their partner. Therefore it's extremely unlikely that someone who commits to voting for someone early on is paired with them.

Having come up against advanced busing mentioned by Glork already in LO2, I have to disagree with this. I think this is a dangerous assumption to make.

MBL/Glork
MBL/Patrick
MBL/Thesp

I must be missing something here. Are you saying these are the only scumpairs you're seriously considering at this point? How did CES get off the list entirely?

[Glork]

Since you've said you're not giving up, I'm left wondering why you're not asking them these critical questions.

Read what I had said already. I am flat-out accusing CES of not having a legitimate case against you. He doesn't. If he can't or won't present a case, I will assume that he does not have one. He hasn't explained any of his behavior. I have no compelling reason to believe that he has any shred of logic or evidence behind any of his actions.

If CES really thinks that you are scum and wants you to be lynched today, he will make an attempt to convince the rest of us that you are scum, and that you are the lynch for today.

Which I suppose meets the minimum requirements for curiosity, though it's not really asking him why he's voting for me.Which I suppose meets the minimum requirements for curiosity, though it's not really asking him why he's voting for me.

Believe it or not, I

intentionally

left "MBL is scum" off of that list of assertions because I wanted to see if CES would bring it up on his own when he replied to me, or whether I'd have to beat him over the head again. Of course, his reply was just a blanket statement along the lines of "I just have general vauge feelings"... which gave me enough information anyway.

Pro-town players -- hell,

good players in general

-- don't just go "I feel this way" and leave it at that. The burden of proof is on CES to prove to (or otherwise convince) me that you are scum. He knows that I want him to explain himself. He has declined or sidestepped repeatedly.

I think that this, in and of itself, speaks volumes about CES's play and his motives.

[Glork]

Are you telling me you want those shared?

*shrug*

Anybody with two eyes, half a brain, and a fifth grade reading level knows my list of suspicions. Take that as you will.

[Mgm]

MBL/Glork
MBL/Patrick
MBL/Thesp

I must be missing something here. Are you saying these are the only scumpairs you're seriously considering at this point? How did CES get off the list entirely?

Yes, scum could be bussing each other, but based on the fact they could easily win today if they don't, I don't think they are at the moment. These are not the only possible pairs I'm considering, these are merely based on the theory I put forward. In that particular case CES dropped off the list because 4 people wanted him lynched, I'm not his partner and he's at Thesp's throat his only remaining possible buddy. If he is scum, I think he's probably paired with Thesp, since when he started voting him ages ago "no bussing will win scum the game" wasn't an issue yet.

[Mr Stoofer]

I've got time to do a vote count, at last.

Please note: Rule [13] applies.

Vote Count

MrBuddyLee: 2 (Mgm CES)
Cogito Ergo Sum: 1 (Thesp)

No lynch: 1 (MBL)

Not voting: Glork Patrick Thesp

It will take

4

votes to lynch!

[MrBuddyLee]

If Patrick is scum:
80% his partner is CES
20% his partner is Mgm
Patrick had a ton to say about Mgm, and vice-versa. Does it look like distancing to protect his godfather in case Patrick gets lynched in endgame? Not particularly--there's just too much of it. Patrick shrugged off CES all game.

If Thesp is scum:
100% his partner is CES

If Glork is scum:
60% his partner is Mgm
40% his partner is CES
Both Mgm and CES played shoddily early in this game. I should probably metagame to confirm this, but I think Glork is more likely to attack a weak scumpartner early than ignore them. He attacked Mgm until he figured out Fritz was the cop, then suddenly Mgm appeared on his probably town list and CES on the likely scum list because Mgm distanced from CDB effectively. I also noted an awkward Mgm unvote of Glork and defensive explanation on D1.

If CES is scum:
20% his partner is Glork
15% his partner is Patrick
10% his partner is Thesp
55% his partner is Mgm


If Mgm is scum:
10% his partner is Patrick
30% his partner is Glork
60% his partner is CES

These are my thoughts after reading each player's interactions with each possible scumpartner. Not accurate to the decimal point, but it gives you a rough idea of what I'm thinking right now. I won't be voting Thesp today, of that I'm 100% positive. I don't think I'll be voting Patrick either. Mgm is investigated so he's probably not the right vote today. That leaves Glork and CES, and I'm more comfortable voting CES than Glork.

[Mgm]

Why did you drop Patrick from your list of possible candidates to vote for?

then suddenly Mgm appeared on his probably town list and CES on the likely scum list because Mgm distanced from CDB effectively

I distanced myself from CDB? f anything, not voting him had exactly the opposite effect.

[Thesp]

I'm okay with with someone asking, just not the person who refuses to answer me. He first refuses to answer me and now suddenly his own questions enter the realm that just moments ago were scummy to him. I don't see how telling if CES is 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th on the list is gonna help anything.

What. The. Frick.

I'm perfectly willing to answer you on most questions. I refuse to answer you on a question which I strongly feel helps

only

scum. (Or, at best, most strongly helps scum and has dubious benefit to town.) I'm not looking for you to rank CES among your suspects, I'm looking for what you think of him in specific terms. You're using weasel phrases to describe your suspicion of him and I don't like it. I strongly, strongly think CES is scum, and the fact that you've been vague about him the whole game (and

especially

today) does not sit well with me. I think you'd be best to pay heed, because it appears I'm not the only one who's noticed. You'd better come up with some darn good reason why

you're

not answering questions about CES, rather than spouting out this contrived nonsense about "Thesp isn't answering questions".

Also, I'm confused as to how asking everyone about their top lynchee and bottom lynchee is qualified as "questions restricted to the basic neccesitities", while me asking you intently about one player is "working to a complete suspect list".

[Mgm]

Well, telling you that would pretty much reveal my entire suspect list and I believe that would help the scum a bit too much. But since you haven't been called on that, it appears no one agrees with me.

CES is in shared second place behind MBL together with you.

[Thesp]

Well, telling you that would pretty much reveal my entire suspect list and I believe that would help the scum a bit too much. But since you haven't been called on that, it appears no one agrees with me.

CES is in shared second place behind MBL together with you.

How did he get there? Why is he so suspicious to you?