Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mgm]

So other people who aren't called Thesp can still answer it before I explain.

[Thesp]

So other people who aren't called Thesp can still answer it before I explain.

This is a very, very bad idea. No one should answer whom they are least likely to lynch until Mgm comes up with some awesome reason why we should. I can think of at least one compelling reason we

shouldn't

.

I'm really, really disturbed by Mgm's approach here. I want to hear from him - I don't want anyone bailing him out.

[Mgm]

That is a very, very bad idea. No one should listen to Thesp until he can come up with some awesome reason why we should. I can think of at least one compelling reason we shouldn't.

[Thesp]

That is a very, very bad idea. No one should listen to Thesp until he can come up with some awesome reason why we should. I can think of at least one compelling reason we shouldn't.

I want to hear some other people weigh in here. (Also, "no one should listen to Thesp"? Wha?)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think there's an argument to be made for either side. Asking questions is good, but this is info that might be used by scum. I consider it worth it at this time.

Of course, this stalemate is ridiculous. Just give arguments. That means both of you.

[Mgm]

Well, I'm trying to make scum commit to something for one thing. If they say "I want Stoofer lynched" they're not getting away with not following through on what they said when the opportunity arises. The same goes for least suspicious.

I have another motive for asking, but revealing that would make any answers that come after it useless, hence me not telling.

[Glork]

Argument against: Scums will decide who is most suspected and who is most trusted; they will very likely kill one of the two most trusted, and/or they will kill to cater the "most suspected" results to their liking.

It basically creates a huge WIFOM situation if we reach a 4-player endgame, or if we decide to No-Lynch.

[Patrick]

Mgm, what do you think of CES?

[Thesp]

Well, I'm trying to make scum commit to something for one thing. If they say "I want Stoofer lynched" they're not getting away with not following through on what they said when the opportunity arises. The same goes for least suspicious.

There are far better things to get people to commit to. Glork alluded to this, but essentially, your question gives scum the best informtion about whom is best to leave alive the next day,

especially

if we are intent to hold people to what they say now. Assume, for a moment, that Player

A

is scum, and Players

B, C

, and

D

are town. The players are asked this question, and Player

B

says he's least likely to lynch

A.

Note that if we hold him to his answer,

A

can not only have someone on the last day who will be unlikely to lynch him (creating a stalemate at worst), but can also use his answer as leverage against him, should he reconsider (which you've already asserted you intend to do). It's dangerous play, and I'm really concerned that you asked it. I want to hear your reason for asking it that you're keeping hidden, because I'm certainly not going to provide the answer to your question, whether you give your reason or not (and I hope no one else does, either).

I have another motive for asking, but revealing that would make any answers that come after it useless, hence me not telling.

That's what I'm afraid of - I think you have ulterior motives here.

What do you think of CES?

[Mgm]

If my questions are so bad, then telling you might thoughts on CES is just as bad.
Double standards, people.

[Glork]

The pont is, Mgm, if you think that forcing us to give thoughts on players we trust or don't trust has more pros than cons, then you should be willing to share your thoughts on anyone/everyone, too. I don't believe that you have answered your own questions yet. I think you're at least as guilty of using double-standards as anybody else.

[Mgm]

Fine. But please note Thesp's double standards too. If answering my question is a bad idea, I see no reason why answering his (which is very similar) is any better.

I think CES has climbed the ladder of suspiciousness and the person I would least like to lynch is Glork.

[MrBuddyLee]

If I was forced to choose a lynch right now it'd be CES, but I'm a long way from being confident enough to vote. There's no one I wouldn't consider lynching, and I don't see that changing. Thesp is the least likely of you to be scum, in my opinion.

* I see Glork as suspect primarily for his certainty about Zindy, CDB and Nightfall. I've gone through all of his votes and the lynches that have happened, and if he's scum, those three lynches/wagons stand out as the moments where he got impatient and failed to back up his convictions with proper evidence. In none of those three instances did Glork's bluster match his presented case. I kind of like Glork's coverage of the players remaining, except for his brown-nosing of Thesp and I think he's treated Patrick with kid gloves as well. (found him possible scum pre-CDB-lynch, moved him to pro-town post-CDB-lynch with no explanation) Glork took a few shots at Mgm and an awful lot at CES, which is a good sign because CES has been consistently scummy.

Mgm, what do you think of Glork's certainty on CDB, Zindy and Nightfall's alignments before they were lynched?

* I see Thesp as suspect because his play hasn't been as good as advertised and when you look at his vote patterns it's kind of fishy. A lot of abandoning his preferred wagons to join attempted lynches of town with the exception of CDB:

vote: AndrewS->CDB->Adele->Ether->CDB->CES->Zindaras->CES->BM->CES

CES, what evidence would you use to argue that Thesp's dogged pursuit of CDB wasn't a calculated busing decided upon the moment CDB made his third post?

Glork, does Thesp's activity on CDB and CES look like it could feasibly be double-whammy-scumbag-busing?

I also don't like this at all:

Awesome. MrBuddyLee is the final scum. If we have a vig, we can win by tomorrow.

It turns out MBL is the third scum.

I don't understand where MrBuddyLee is in all this, and I don't have strong pro-townness from him.

Also, MrBuddyLee, why aren't you voting for ChannelDelibird?

I have strong concerns about MrBuddyLee after a brief re-read

I could go with a MrBuddyLee lynch. Pretty easily, the more I read.

Glork, can you guess why the above smattering of quotes concerns me?

* I don't like CES's certainty about Thesp, Zindy, Mgm, Glork with nothing to support it but "gut and metagame". His voting patterns read like a "here's the wagon du jour" summary of the game. He hasn't seemed curious and hasn't asked relevant questions of anyone. It doesn't feel like he wants to win.

vote: Thesp->Andrew->scumvoid->Andrew->Glork->Thesp->Thesp->CDB->Thesp->Nightfall->MBL->Nightfall->MBL

Patrick, why hasn't CES been lynched sooner?

* I like that Mgm had fairly thorough coverage of Glork, Thesp, Patrick and myself this game, but don't like the way he's ignored CES:

CES->Glork->AndrewS->Glork->Thesp->Patrick->Ether->Glork->Thesp->Patrick->MBL->Ether->MBL

Regardless of CES's alignment, how can Mgm not even demonstrate the least bit of curiosity about CES's behavior? Mgm's FOSes:

Ether, Thesp, CDB, Fritz, Patrick, MBL

It goes beyond the votes and foses-there's no attempt to discern like you see with Glork on CES, for example. Something's rotten in Denmark, er, you know what I mean.

Glork, your take on Mgm hitting everyone hard except CES?

* I can't say that Patrick's been laying low because he's asked a fair amount of solid, relevant questions--some at times were questions I had in my mind as well. But why exactly is he clearest in our minds? Tone, proportionality, curiosity, for starters. He hasn't gotten results though, not that any of us have. I'm not willing to let him skate on tone alone.

vote: Thesp->IH->Glork->Adele->Mgm->Adele->Zindaras->CDB->Zindaras->Nightfall->Zindaras->BattleMage

Patrick hasn't been on any of the remaining players since Adele claimed. When I reread Patrick I got the sense that I didn't disagree with him often, and when I did, he was very reasonable about it. I feel placated, no offense Patrick I need to take another look at his posts with a more skeptical eye and with Patrick-CES and Patrick-Mgm in mind. I reviewed his approaches towards determining each of their alignments over the course of the game, and they're very different. Patrick was very involved with Mgm throughout, and seemed to shrug at CES, relatively speaking.

CES, if Patrick's scum, who do you think his scumpartner is and why? Does it appear to you he's intentionally avoided alienating people?

[Mgm]

I might be least likely to lynch Glork, but that doesn't mean he's off the hook. He made few good points and he has shown he understands my reasoning (contrary to others who have called my play stupid in some form or another). He's merely at the bottom of my suspect list because everyone else is more suspicious.

I found the initial reason CES got attacked flimsy, but he became consistently more scummy throughout the game. I can be short about it. I regret the previous stance I took on him.

Mgm, what do you think of Glork's certainty on CDB, Zindy and Nightfall's alignments before they were lynched?

Perhaps it's scummy, but he often overstates his certainty (at least that is the read I get of him). I think it's more of a play style and I wouldn't be surprised if he's simply good at reading people.

Thanks for answering the question MBL. That answer helped a lot.

[Glork]

MBL... I know this is going to sound completely backwards to you, but

certainty is not something that I think I have *EVER* used as leverage when scum

. It is completely inconsistent with my behavior as scum, but it *IS* consistent with my behavior as town (LO2, Graduation, Covert Ops).


Regarding your questions:
A) I don't know if Thesp's behavior is indicative of a double-busing. I would have to read over Thesp's posts in greater detail. I will do that in the next couple of days.
B) Yes. He started off claiming with certainty that you are scum, and he appeared to be come

more

certain.
C) I'm currently trying not to WIFOM myself out of the CES-MGM scumpair that I projected earlier. I think all of the evidence in the thread supports it, but it seems almost *too* obvious. In a way, I think that we should just be taking this day-by-day. Scumpair speculation is one of the things that, I think, caused the town to lose Space Monkey. If they'd just lynched either of the two scummiest individuals (Glork, Nightson/VitR), the game would have been a victory for the dirty Gorillas. Similarly, disbelief of advanced busing technicques (and crappy play by a pro-town player) caused the scums to win Lights Out 2. I don't want that to happen again here.

[Thesp]

If my questions are so bad, then telling you might thoughts on CES is just as bad.
Double standards, people.

This is absurd. I am asserting that

some

questions are worthwhile, and some are detrimental. Suppose it is Day 1 of a game, and you ask, "Everyone, tell whether you are the doctor." While you are forcing the scum to commit to being the doctor or not, answering this question is clearly more detrimental to the town than helpful. Not every question is detrimental like this, however, and certainly some are useful. I strongly assert that people telling who they are least likely to lynch is not helpful, and worse, is

harmful

to the town. There are plenty of other questions I'll be happy to answer, but not that one. I still want to hear the awesome reason you have for asking it.

I think CES has climbed the ladder of suspiciousness

Can you be more specific? When did he climb it? How high has he climbed it? What did he do? This could mean almost anything.

*reads a bit more*

Your stance is still pretty vague. Can you bring some clarity here?

[Patrick]

Patrick, why hasn't CES been lynched sooner?

... because a majority has always chosen to lynch someone else? I suppose several people, including me, have somewhat ignored him because he always plays useless. Many cop out of trying to read him.

* I can't say that Patrick's been laying low because he's asked a fair amount of solid, relevant questions--some at times were questions I had in my mind as well. But why exactly is he clearest in our minds? Tone, proportionality, curiosity, for starters. He hasn't gotten results though, not that any of us have. I'm not willing to let him skate on tone alone.

If Mgm turns out to be scum, I'm claiming some glory because I attacked him alot earlier The only people so far who have really "gotten results" would be Glork and Thesp. If one is scum, then we're down to one player who's gotten results.

Patrick hasn't been on any of the remaining players since Adele claimed. When I reread Patrick I got the sense that I didn't disagree with him often, and when I did, he was very reasonable about it. I feel placated, no offense Patrick

I can try and cause more offence in future if desired.

It's true that I've approached CES and MgM in different ways. You can't approach every player in the same way. When trying to read Fritz for example, much of the read was based on very little, because there is so little to work with. Mgm has used a wide variety of bad logic in this game, and has stayed on certain people for far too long. Obvious way to expose his thought processes is to ask him questions, and disect the bad logic and force him to justify stuff. He's generally failed to do so. With Glork, it's easier to get a meta on him, and I looked for stuff he does as town but doesn't do so much as scum. I've also tried to judge his sincerity in debates where he apparently got worked up or angry, and looked to see whether the stream of consciousness seemed to progress in the way it might for town. With Andrew, I judged him at least partly on what others said and did around him, rather than getting into a large debate with him about the finer points of the defences he was using, which seemed flawed for the most part. Different people, different approach. But yes. I've not really paid much attention to CES compared to some players. Other players I paid relatively little attention to were CDB, Nightfall, fritz maybe others that I can't remember.

[MrBuddyLee]

B) Yes. He started off claiming with certainty that you are scum, and he appeared to become

more

certain.

Nope, I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that those posts I listed are the

only

observations and persuasions Thesp made about me before June 10th. That's the sum of it. No attempt to persuade, no attempt to qualify his suspicions. Just the sloppy blanket statements which obviously leave me cold.

If the scumpair was in {Glork, Thesp, Patrick}, they would have known that Mgm+CES would be offline overnight and thus would have felt comfortable waiting around for late night GMT to drop the 3rd and 4th votes on me. So I'm fairly confident in eliminating:

Glork-Patrick
Glork-Thesp
Thesp-Patrick
as our scumpair, meaning that I'm in the unique position of knowing that Thesp can only be scum if he's paired with CES.

[Patrick]

You know that Glork/Thesp/Patrick were all online and simulposted a few days ago. That's what the spam was about.

[Glork]

Nope, I don't have a problem with that.

Are you *trying* to make me rip my hair out of my head?

And no, I didn't catch that because I haven't looked at Thesp's posts thoroughly/in isolation. I just don't think he's scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

You know that Glork/Thesp/Patrick were all online and simulposted a few days ago. That's what the spam was about.

I know. I'm saying it's conceivable they were nervous and didn't hammer, but that's made much less likely by the fact that the first two on my stupid wagon were from Europe. I think one of those three scumteams would have found a way.

[Mgm]

I think CES has climbed the ladder of suspiciousness

Can you be more specific? When did he climb it? How high has he climbed it? What did he do? This could mean almost anything.

Is there anything else you want me to broadcast to the scum?

[Glork]

Re: MBL's question A) to me. It's possible. I don't find it especially likely, but unless CES gets lynched as the Godfather, I wouldn't consider Thesp necessarily cleared if it comes down to a 4p endgame tomorrow.


Meh. I'm about ready to put my chips into the pot. I still think CES is probably scum.

[Glork]

I think CES has climbed the ladder of suspiciousness

Can you be more specific? When did he climb it? How high has he climbed it? What did he do? This could mean almost anything.

Is there anything else you want me to broadcast to the scum?

I still don't understand how you can be okay with you asking everyone's hypothetical lynch target and everyone's most trusted player, then getting all huffy when somebody asks you to give your opinions on CES.

That don't make no sense to me.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, if you're ready to vote, you must have incredible confidence that CES is scum and you must have a pretty good idea of who his scumpartner is.

Please tell me how you've arrived at your decision about CES. Is it process of elimination, ties to other scum, metagaming, gut, or are you giving up to some extent?

Please tell us who his scumpartner is, and why you've arrived at that conclusion over other possibilities. Feel free to list two.

Also, why haven't you asked Mgm or CES these questions? You've expressed displeasure with both of their votes on me, and yet haven't asked either one of them a single probing question about the reasoning behind their votes!

(Then again, who has?)