Mini 442 - Beast Wars Mafia Game Over


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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:42 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

^^Good claim^^
Can't be easily proven and it's not indicatave of your alignment.


TrustGossip wrote: Oh, and a little FYI, just because someone presented a very clear and damning case against you (STD) doesn't mean that your mockery of quotes and longwindedness is going to help you at this point.
This seems like you're trying a little too hard to appear pro-town. STD made a good case, but 'clear and damning' is a bit much.

For most of the game, it seems that you've been playing it safe, continually bringing things back to the "lurkers" and qualifying your accustations.
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:28 pm

Post by Aimee »

Jordan, your claim can be perhaps provable. However, your alignment cannot be proven. You could, for all we know, be a pro-Mafia roleblocker.
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:33 am

Post by ryan »

unvote
In light of the latest claim I will unvote as I believe (I think) that Jordan is at -1, and don't want to see him get quick lynched
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:45 am

Post by Lowell »

I don't know if I believe the claim. I tend to agree with Hacker that it's a little too convenient.

Looking back, I can see a TrustGossip wagon being useful as well. Just sayin'.
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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:16 am

Post by FraggleScum »

JordanA24 wrote:Right, you've forced me to claim.

I'm Scorponok, a pro-town roleblocker, every night, my cyber-bees can prevent somebody from using their night action.
I can't say for sure how the mod set things up...but given that this game does have a theme, and some flavor for the roles, Jordan's claim doesn't make sense to me.

It may be nothing..or it may be he made a mistake. Scorponok, in the cartoons, is a bad guy...he is actually second-in-command for the Decepticons (bad guys) in Beast Wars.

My vote stays for now.
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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:29 am

Post by JordanA24 »

FraggleScum wrote:
JordanA24 wrote:Right, you've forced me to claim.

I'm Scorponok, a pro-town roleblocker, every night, my cyber-bees can prevent somebody from using their night action.
I can't say for sure how the mod set things up...but given that this game does have a theme, and some flavor for the roles, Jordan's claim doesn't make sense to me.

It may be nothing..or it may be he made a mistake. Scorponok, in the cartoons, is a bad guy...he is actually second-in-command for the Decepticons (bad guys) in Beast Wars.

My vote stays for now.
I don't watch the show, and I'm relying on Wikipedia alone, the Predacons do seem like an evil group, but the flavour post did say that the Predacons and Maximals are allied against the alien scum.
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:56 am

Post by ryan »

TrustGossip, Save The Dragons and Sweenytodd. Are you three still comfortable with your votes? Has Jordan lied or told the truth to save his butt? The lack of discussion today (after the claim) is a little strange as Jordan is -2 right now and a deadline is looming
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:11 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

HackerHuck wrote:I've been thinking about this a bit more. I don't think we should vote for a no-lynch, but it's not a bad play for today if we don't have a solid suspect.
I disagree.
ryan wrote:I do notice not much brought up about ABR and his "lyrics" any thoughts on that?
I don't think they mean anything other than he has a post restriction and may loosely be trying to tie popular rap lyrics with the game. Not to say that there's nothing there, but I'm just not sure there's something to find.

I do reflect the opinion that it's wierd for this game to have such a PR...the flavor makes little sense.
FraggleScum wrote:STD: Just curious...you fingered me, but only quoted me once in your analysis. I was hoping to hear more about what you found suspicious? I didn't see anything except that I wrote something similar to TrustGossip once.
Part of it was teffc's play, part of it was your own play so far. I haven't quoted much from you because I'm picking up specific vibes in your postings.

If I come after you, I will make a case, don't worry.
ryan wrote:Actually Jordan, STD's post stated these at the end
Save The Dragons wrote:My post contains multiple allusions to a ryan-jordan scumpair. Those are jokes as well. In fact, you should probably assume everything I've said up until now was just for the hell of it.
Oh! You got pizzoned! Like a calzone and a pizza put together! I told you ryan was town.
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:17 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

JordanA24 wrote:I think that's either poor sarcasm or a VERY poor joke.
Don't whine now. Really, the "trouble in paradise" line was going to be something, "somebody's not sleeping together tonight" but I felt that was too graphic.

But don't you think it's strange that all these connections are here? That's my point.
JordanA24 wrote: Post 401 was directed at StD. And it's not a weak excuse, StD has skipped over Lowell while declaring him to be town for no reason at all.

Why can no-one else see that Lowell is scum, he's made so many scummy posts it's untrue. Let me try again.
Because he's not playing like scum. He's playing like a townie. Granted he's not being the most helpful townie. But he's using humor, which seems to be something you're lacking.

His case against Albert wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either.

Now, let's talk about your defense.

It consisted of:

1) Attacking Lowell/flogging a dead horse
2) Trying to discredit those who are attacking you

And that's about it.
JordanA24 wrote: I'm Scorponok, a pro-town roleblocker, every night, my cyber-bees can prevent somebody from using their night action.
I think the fact that you've specifically mentioned you are a "pro-town" roleblocker is telling, like you're trying to convince us of this. I really can't recall a roleblocker distinguish thier alignment as part of the role.

Still, I'm not going to deny that this claim could be true (if someone knows a case where someone claimed pro-town RB as opposed to just a regular RB, let me know).

And yet, to me this claim does not outweigh what has been uttered by your posts. Vote stands for now.
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:22 am

Post by JordanA24 »

I said protown because I've seen a lot of mafia roleblockers in games, if I just said roleblocker, people would say that I probably was a roleblocker, but a scum roleblocker, such is the suspicion that I've generated.
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:38 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

JordanA24 wrote:I said protown because I've seen a lot of mafia roleblockers in games,
And I wonder if this is one of the games you've seen it in.
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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:00 am

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Save The Dragons wrote:
FraggleScum wrote:STD: Just curious...you fingered me, but only quoted me once in your analysis. I was hoping to hear more about what you found suspicious? I didn't see anything except that I wrote something similar to TrustGossip once.
Part of it was teffc's play, part of it was your own play so far. I haven't quoted much from you because I'm picking up specific vibes in your postings.

If I come after you, I will make a case, don't worry.
As you wish. I stand forewarned...
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:21 pm

Post by ryan »

Vote Jordan


I just don't see enough of an argument not to keep my vote on somebody I felt was scummy earlier and even after the claim the defense wasn't that compelling, this puts him at -1 so proceed with caution if you feel the need but I think we have one of our scum right here
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:36 pm

Post by TrustGossip »

I'm not entirely sure what is going on here, so I'm going to make a list for myself and everyone else's benefit of what I just observed happening, from my perspective. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted anything.

Friday: Early morning

1. Jordan, at L-1, claims "pro-town roleblocker" to little fanfare.
2. HH says that this is a convenient scum claim (it is) and then pulls a "too-townie" argument at me from nowhere. Then says I have been playing it safe (what?).
3. Aimee doesn't do much, like usual.
4. Ryan unvotes, stating his reason as avoiding a quick-lynch.
5. Lowell agrees with HH, then suggests a wagon of me (again, where is this coming from?)
6. Fraggle argues flavor, look he's actually initiating a line of reasoning by himself! *golfclapping*
7. Jordan talks about using Wikipedia to read up on the show. Admits that his role flavor smells. Interesting.
8. ryan does a little thing he picked up from SweenyTodd, asking questions of other people. Generally, this should really only be done when discussion slows a little and a boost and a refresh are in order, otherwise it's assumed that everyone still has the same opinions as they had on their most recent post. Ryan, it's still Friday.
9. STD disagrees with HH's suggestion of a no lynch, an opinion that I second. No lynches should only be used when mathematically sound (i.e. there are a small group of people in a non-LYLO situation when a following scum night kill would help narrow suspicions to catch the scum in the end) or when discussion has entirely petered out and there's just nothing to go on. Neither case is true at this moment. STD then says some more stuff and continues in is argument against Jordan.
10. Jordan responds, blah.
11. STD responds, blah.
12. Fraggle responds, super blah.
13. Ryan votes Jordan.
OBJECTION!

See item #4 please.
There is a clear contradiction in the evidence! Am I supposed to believe that only giving Jordan 10 hours to defend as being synonymous with a person who is opposed to a possible quicklynch? I understand that with your pace of posting, you obviously have nothing better to do than go on Mafiascum every few hours, but surely you understand that this behavior is very questionable?

Major FOS: ryan


I want noone to suffer any delusions that ryan is my sacred lamb or something just because I think that his beating of a dead horse (Lowell) was motivated by genuine inanity and not scummishness. The only people I feel comfortable in placing any amount of trust into at this point are Sweenytodd and STD, and even then that's just because they actually process the information available in this game in a relatively unbiased and intelligent manner.

Part two following (to facilitate reading)
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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:50 pm

Post by TrustGossip »

There is something else that is bugging as well.

Jordan has used Wikipedia to read up on Beast Wars. I have not. I am currently wondering at what level of interpretation to use for this discrepancy in behaviors.

1. I am a dumbass, everyone should go to Wikipedia and read everything about the theme of which their game is based upon.

No, that's not it. I am obviously not a dumbass.

2. Jordan is scum who is making up a claim.

Ok, yes this could be the situation. Especially if Scorponok is a safe claim. Then he would have to go to Wikipedia to look up things about Scorponok to come up with a plausible total claim to make this wagon go away. However, why exactly would he use a Deceptacon, as Fraggle has helpfully pointed out? Surely he would know that there would be a flavor battle to be lost in that? This then leads to door number 3.

3. Jordan is telling the truth.

GASPETH!!! With certain peoples' peculiar reactions after his big reveal, I'd say that maybe, no matter how uncomfortable this reality may be to accept, this option has some merit. In addition, it explains his reluctance to claim, as he knows he has flavor that totally sucks as a defense.

Unvote
for now to let people to respond to this, and to my last post.

P.S. @ Hackerhuck, "for most of the game" I didn't do entirely too much probing and prodding of a lot of people because I like to keep a few main suspicions and filter most of the rest out. But when something actually important happens, then maybe you need to reconsider your assessment.
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:20 pm

Post by ryan »

TrustGossip: If you want to give me some grief for my posting, feel free, that's fair. I didn't realize that SweenyTodd had a patent on asking questions in mafia of other players, I shall make sure that I reimburse him any royalties he is owed. Asking questions is how you get answers in mafia TG, go look at any other game I'm involved in. I ask questions of players, I ask for observations, I ask for content and I'm glad to see you finally got the whole "content portion of the game" we appreciate it. I post opinions, I give thoughts and am not afraid to admit being wrong or to go after players I think are scum. Fair enough?
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:27 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

TrustGossip wrote:Jordan has used Wikipedia to read up on Beast Wars. I have not. I am currently wondering at what level of interpretation to use for this discrepancy in behaviors.

1. I am a dumbass, everyone should go to Wikipedia and read everything about the theme of which their game is based upon.

No, that's not it. I am obviously not a dumbass.
It's not a bad idea to do this if you're unfamiliar with a theme. I've done this in all my theme games, since it's likely the mod and/or other players will use it as a reference

My first thought when I checked out his claim, was that he was pretty ballsy to be picking a Decepticon or whatever they're now called to be his role. The initial post does clarify that the two sides have called a truce and are working together to get rid of the aliens. Having the aliens as the enemy versus the bad guys from the TV show keeps the game from getting ruined by an early mass-claim and it's still possible that the scum were given safe claims.

TrustGossip wrote:2. HH says that this is a convenient scum claim (it is) and then pulls a "too-townie" argument at me from nowhere. Then says I have been playing it safe (what?).
Good choice of words. I picked up on your post, because it seemed to come from nowhere. Most of the game you were commenting on minor suspicions and qualifying all of your accusations. The post I quoted seemed very out of character and when I looked back through all of your posts, it was even more obvious.

You have also mischaracterised my attack. Too-townie is when you act so consistently pro-town that it cannot possibly be true. I don't feel like you've been acting too townie this game. I just feel like you switched from being pretty passive in your tone to being quite forcefull, once Jordan was close to being lynched. When I reread your posts, I even found your original vote on Jordan to be pretty weird. Follow this trail, starting with Post 220...
TrustGossip on May 26th wrote:...Long list of
suspicions
observations...

I'm simply providing my opinion of people at this point in the game. People's most recent and most prominent actions weigh the heaviest (meaning that people who do more things tend to have a positive bias on this list). Please try not to use this list as a basis for voting.
I'm actually discouraging voting because I feel there's a great deal of information missing because of the two inactives (three if you count Fraggle, four if you count Primoris).
Sorry for lack of quote evidence, but I did not want to create a behemoth, and I am also somewhat lazy.
TrustGossip on May 27th wrote:Jordan, honestly my list is near logarithmic, Lowell and Primoris are much more suspect than you. Although the answer to Sweenytodd's question would help us greatly. I agree that Lowell's almost certain OMGUS of Albert is incredibly stupid for someone who is already on the chopping block. But I will wait until Tuesday.
JordanA24 on May 29th wrote:*bump*

Why isn't Lowell dead yet?

*bump*
TrustGossip on May 29th wrote:...quote from Lowell...

However, Lowell's lucidity is making him increasingly less suspcious, while Jordan's lynch happy tactics make me decidedly
unhappy
.

Unvote: Vote JordanA24
IGMEOY: Lowell
Jordan does actually present his case on Lowell in there, but you didn't seem to care about that. You seemed to move to a vote pretty quickly given your previous history. Then after STD makes his case - reasonable, but no smoking gun - you kiss up to him and tell Jordan that he's been pretty much caught red-handed.
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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:48 pm

Post by Sweenytodd »

In reference to Ryan...
Ryan, Post 431 wrote:TrustGossip, Save The Dragons and Sweenytodd. Are you three still comfortable with your votes?
No I am not comfortable with my vote, I am torn between wanting to believe him and the convenience of a role blocker. The problem I have with a role-blocker claim is that it appears as often for the scum as for the town. Another problem I have with it is that it is difficult to test without outing another role (no I am NOT suggesting that)... It can be mistaken for a no-kill, doc-protect, scum NK of the target or any number of scenarios where it is difficult to see if a role was in fact roleblocked... That being said, There is the possibility of proving it down the road and I don't like lynching a claimed power-role unless forced to...

TrustGossip:
TrustGossip, Post 439 wrote:Jordan has used Wikipedia to read up on Beast Wars. I have not. I am currently wondering at what level of interpretation to use for this discrepancy in behaviors.

1. I am a dumbass, everyone should go to Wikipedia and read everything about the theme of which their game is based upon.

No, that's not it. I am obviously not a dumbass.
This may just be a playstyle thing... I know that when I joined the game I went to Wikipedia because I don't know anything about the show.
TrustGossip, Post 438 wrote:ryan does a little thing he picked up from SweenyTodd, asking questions of other people. Generally, this should really only be done when discussion slows a little and a boost and a refresh are in order, otherwise it's assumed that everyone still has the same opinions as they had on their most recent post.
I don't know if I agree with your characterization here Trust... I like to ask people questions to spark discussion and because I take notes on people's positions/suspicions and votes so often times in light of new information or posting I will ask specific questions to better understand the types of things people are thinking in regards to the game. This is what it appeared that Ryan was doing here.

In light of the claim I also have some questions... Since the claim, Hackerhuck, Aimee, Lowell, Fraggle, Trust, and STD have all posted in regards to the claim without moving their vote. What I take from this is that either they don't buy the claim or don't want to lose a lynch before deadline... I can understand them both I'd like to know which it is. Also Ryan...
Ryan, Post 437 wrote:I just don't see enough of an argument not to keep my vote on somebody I felt was scummy earlier and even after the claim the defense wasn't that compelling
I didn't find it odd that you un-voted but I was confused as to why you un-voted... Was it that you didn't believe the claim or what? The way I read it was you were looking for others to follow you in un-voting and when it didn't happen you re-voted.

For right now, I am going to
unvote: Jordan
so we can discuss, (we still have until Wednesday and if it gets down to it I will re-vote to get A lynch...)

I am also going to
Vote: Fragglescum
Fragglescum, Post 429 wrote: It may be nothing..or it may be he made a mistake. Scorponok, in the cartoons, is a bad guy...he is actually second-in-command for the Decepticons (bad guys) in Beast Wars.
This struck me as scummy... I admit that I missed in the first post that Maximals and Predacons were working together but when I read the claim and it looked odd I went back and read the opening posts... To me I read this as jumping on the claim any way he could think of to discredit it. Of the arguments against believing the claim this stuck out to me as being contrived...
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:21 pm

Post by ryan »

SweenyTodd: You actually mentioned the reasons I was torn with a vote/unvote on Jordan. As far as a roleblocker, I've never played in a game where the role blocker has been a townie and the more I thought about it the more I felt as though he was anti-town and I was going to stick with my initial vote. I'm not saying that Jordan couldn't be telling the truth but my gut was telling me that he was scum, and so I revoted him. Normally (which doesn't mean it has to be the case here) when somebody posts a role that person normally has a good argument against somebody else, while Jordan seemed to say "Well I'm a role, I'm pro town, you can't lynch me" and that was it. I'd like to see a pro town move by him, which would be, give up his role and than go find a scum. I'm not seeing that by Jordan, which is making me feel he is scum
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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:04 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

Sweenytodd wrote:In reference to Ryan...
Ryan, Post 431 wrote:TrustGossip, Save The Dragons and Sweenytodd. Are you three still comfortable with your votes?
No I am not comfortable with my vote, I am torn between wanting to believe him and the convenience of a role blocker. The problem I have with a role-blocker claim is that it appears as often for the scum as for the town. Another problem I have with it is that it is difficult to test without outing another role (no I am NOT suggesting that)... It can be mistaken for a no-kill, doc-protect, scum NK of the target or any number of scenarios where it is difficult to see if a role was in fact roleblocked... That being said, There is the possibility of proving it down the road and I don't like lynching a claimed power-role unless forced to...
Roleblockers are much more common as scum than as town. I've been a town roleblocker before and it's a tough job that can often hurt the town more than help. Assuming common mini roles (SK, Vig, Doc, Cop), if you're successful in blocking someone you're more likely to block a townie than scum. It's also possible that Jordan's claim may have been intended to get a power role outed in the future.
Sweenytodd wrote:In light of the claim I also have some questions... Since the claim, Hackerhuck, Aimee, Lowell, Fraggle, Trust, and STD have all posted in regards to the claim without moving their vote. What I take from this is that either they don't buy the claim or don't want to lose a lynch before deadline...
I didn't move my vote because I'm voting for Ryan, although TrustGossip is tempting and now I'm thinking Jordan still wouldn't be a horrible lynch today either.
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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:56 pm

Post by ryan »

TrustGossip eh? Anything to back that up? I don't remember you FoSing him during the game and I'm interested in your thoughts. (if I'm wrong about the FoS I apologize, but looking back I didn't see it) And what about the Jordan case. You mention that most roleblockers are scum and than you mention something about the claim outing a power role. Can you explain that?
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:53 pm

Post by JordanA24 »

HackerHuck wrote:Roleblockers are much more common as scum than as town. I've been a town roleblocker before and it's a tough job that can often hurt the town more than help. Assuming common mini roles (SK, Vig, Doc, Cop), if you're successful in blocking someone you're more likely to block a townie than scum. It's also possible that Jordan's claim may have been intended to get a power role outed in the future.
If I was aiming to that, I'd have said I was a cop or doc. As you said, roleblocker could well hurt the town more than helping it, which is why, if I survive, I'm only going to block when I'm pretty certain someone is scum.

Also, SK protown?
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:54 pm

Post by JordanA24 »

EBWOP: IF is was aiming to DO that...
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

Ryan, take a look at my last couple of posts...
JordanA24 wrote:
HackerHuck wrote:Roleblockers are much more common as scum than as town. I've been a town roleblocker before and it's a tough job that can often hurt the town more than help. Assuming common mini roles (SK, Vig, Doc, Cop), if you're successful in blocking someone you're more likely to block a townie than scum. It's also possible that Jordan's claim may have been intended to get a power role outed in the future.
If I was aiming to that, I'd have said I was a cop or doc. As you said, roleblocker could well hurt the town more than helping it, which is why, if I survive, I'm only going to block when I'm pretty certain someone is scum.

Also, SK protown?
Considering the case you've made on Lowell, I'm not very confident in your usefullness to us.

Claiming cop or doc would only out that particular power role and it would also get you lynched. Trading one for one usually helps the town more than scum, which is why you rarely see fake counterclaims. By claiming roleblocker, a power role must out himself to confirm your ability - either a power role claiming to have been blocked or by a doc stating that they did not prevent the kill.

SK is not protown, but it is a common mini role with a night action. Three of five common night actions are pro-town - i.e. more likely block townie than scum.
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:29 pm

Post by JordanA24 »

Well, I think Lowell is scum, but I'll only block someone if the town really think I should, it's best we have more than one person deciding if we should block someone, considering how potentially damaging it could be if I get it wrong.
Please delete my comment from your sig...such an awful joke- Battle Mage


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