Kingmaker II-Game Over

[VitaminR]

2.) Post 2229 by spectrumvoid (followed by other posts) shows that SV favored killing Fritz over VitaminR. Noted.

In fact, I seem to recall SV openly argued I was pro-town.

Also, I am under the impression that VitR 'disagreed' with more than simply my analysis on DR, since I recall a phrase of something like "I disagree with most of your suspicions", which should be more than DR. VitR, please go into detail about what

else

you have disagreed with me about. I want it out in the open.

Yep, they were two more blocs of analysis I disagreed with. I'd sort of forgotten about them, to be honest.

[VitaminR]

PJ, the main problem I had with your pieces of analysis is that you didn't really have all that much evidence for the people you found scummy (SV, DR, mnowax and me). I've covered DR and me. Here is mnowax.

You summarised the two parts of your post, so I will quote those instead of responding to every bit.

Mnowax is striking me as somewhat scummy – I don't particularly like his level of participation, nor do I like his defeatist attitude and lack of substantive comments. His claimed suspicion on MoS seems a bit convenient in the sense that MoS is attacking him, and his first response seems to be reciprocation. His post explaining his vote on MoS, however, strikes me as legit. I'm actually fairly conflicted so far as his posts go.

Lack of contribution? Defeatist attitude? Those all strike me as "trying to find scum tells to fit what I want to do"-scum tells. Still, you're conflicted.

CTD's posts are in fact not really in accordance with what I would normally expect from him. I do know that in other games he was not posting as much as usual either, but in those games I am still fairly confident when he did post it was more substance than what he offered for much of this game. I don't feel like I can accurately comment on a number of his votes, because many of them were based on things lost in the crash, which I have forgotten much of by this point. I agree with others that his worst feature by far is his strange constant dismissal of Fritz, which I am going to have to label as slightly scummy to just plain scummy considering this was going on for well over 30 pages.

This is stretching somewhat. I don't see how not asking about what reasons someone has for voting you is a scum tell. Lack of substance is also not really a scum tell in my opinion, especially considering the size of this game.

Those were your reasons. I honestly expect something a whole lot more substantive than that from you.

Your case against SV was largely supported by her "fawning" tendencies and her Glork push. Now I agree with the last bit, but the first bit strikes me as somewhat contrived.

This is largely the problem I have with your posts. You seem to justify your suspicions with a lot of very minor things that you could really say about a lot of posters. Lurking, ignoring Fritz, "fawning," lack of substance. They're all things I think everyone does at points.

Btw, you posted this concerning SV:

Noting her Post 130 about VitR for later, but nothing much to read into at the moment – I disagree with most of her assessment regardless, though this should already be clear from my posting.

[Lowell]

Well, good job Zindy.

I'm feeling better about his towniness now, I think.



I'll file away the possibility that he bussed a partner to stick around to endgame hoping to be king again. I don't necessarily BELIEVE it right now. I'll just file it away. For later. Just in case.

Carry on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

VitR, you're barking down the wrong path. It's not whether someone does one of those things, it's that someone does one or more of those things

consistently

, forming a pattern of behavior that you can pick up on to determine they are probably scum.

[VitaminR]

VitR, you're barking down the wrong path. It's not whether someone does one of those things, it's that someone does one or more of those things

consistently

, forming a pattern of behavior that you can pick up on to determine they are probably scum.

Definitely true, but I think that definitely as far as patterns of non-contribution are concerned, that determination should by no means be this strong.

[Zindaras]

I think it's a bit odd that all the reactions to Jelly's 2394 are defensive reactions, not opinions about them. Surely the posts he quotes are interesting to say the least? The links between Vitamin, Yossy, Mnowax2, ThAdmiral, KScope and Voidybuns are worth checking out more.

[Toaster Strudel]

If I had been selected King, someone would be dead already.

This is clearly why you were not selected.

I think I might have smitten Fritzler though... it's not a bad idea you know.

[Toaster Strudel]

[quote=PJ's coat tails]2.) Post 2229 by spectrumvoid (followed by other posts) shows that SV favored killing Fritz over VitaminR. Noted. [/quote]

I don't know whether SV was distancing herself from Fritzler, or trying to look like she was distancing. The only way to find out is to kill Fritzler.

[Zindaras]

Why would you conclude that she's distancing herself from Fritz? That looks an awful lot like backwards reasoning from where I'm looking at it. You say Fritz is scum, so Voidybuns was distancing herself from Fritz. In my opinion, the most logical thing to remark is that Voidybuns is defending Vitty.

[RafK]

Zindaras gets some brownie points for the SV execution, but there's a decent chance of a bussing here, mostly because SV wasn't Zindy's preferred target on the LOE originally and I do feel that SV became the execution out of sheer pressure from the town at large (not just me).

I never outlined my preference during my Kingship, so I don't know what you're getting that from. In fact, during Yossy's kingship, I revealed a strong preference for a voidybuns execution:

The key point there is "during Yos' kingship", e.g. "when it wasn't your call" (and Yos wasn't in favour of an SV execution- whether or not he's scum himself, this is so- so it would be the perfect time to distance yourself from SV if you were so incline).

HOWEVER, I'm withdrawing from this one a little bit because I misread you in two places. When you brought out your LOE you seemed to focus more on Fritz and VR and leave arguments about SV as an afterthought, and then I'd noticed you vote for Fritzler and VR but not SV- however, I see now that you were doing that to make a point about voting, which I must have glossed over the first time, and when you said about SV that you'd given your arguments earlier, this was true- it was just that t was mostly a few months ago in real time, on a previous day

[RafK]

VR: SV's "fawning" was full-blown "sucking up to the king", at least on day 1. When Glork became king it kind of stuffed up SV's strategy in that direction, since she'd been pushing at Glork, and there was an obvious change of gears. I wouldn't say it was a contrived argument- it was a major part of my original case against SV back on day 3. It was a pattern of behaviour, not just one isolated post.

I don't want to play WIFOM games with SV's last day of posting towards Fritz and VR. She would have been playing under the knowledge that she was a potential execution target. Other people's posting towards SV in the past few days, when she was saved from execution a couple of times, is going to be more useful.

[Thesp]

Yesterday felt very odd. Happy to see spectrumvoid dead, and willing to back off the Zindaras hate now. Must re-read to get some bearing, and this was th elast game I got to tonight, and I'm pooped.

Before I forget: Fritz, who's the play today?

I really like this question.

[Zindaras]

The key point there is "during Yos' kingship", e.g. "when it wasn't your call" (and Yos wasn't in favour of an SV execution- whether or not he's scum himself, this is so- so it would be the perfect time to distance yourself from SV if you were so incline).

Sure, sure, but my voidybuns-execution was in correspondence with my earlier behaviour and opinions regarding her, so it can hardly be said that I executed her because the town told me to.

HOWEVER, I'm withdrawing from this one a little bit because I misread you in two places. When you brought out your LOE you seemed to focus more on Fritz and VR and leave arguments about SV as an afterthought, and then I'd noticed you vote for Fritzler and VR but not SV- however, I see now that you were doing that to make a point about voting, which I must have glossed over the first time, and when you said about SV that you'd given your arguments earlier, this was true- it was just that t was mostly a few months ago in real time, on a previous day

Exactly.

Glossing over Voidy's posts:

-Attack on cbox. Votes in her third post.
-FoSes Amelia and Vaughn in her third post.
-Votes Phoebus in her fourth post.
-Phoebus scummy.
-PJ pro-town.
-Glork irritating.
-Unvotes box in 20, votes pablito in the same. "No read" on CDB/bird.
-Unvotes pablito in 22.
-Prefers Phoebus over bird.
-Attack on MoS.
-Uncertain on bird.
-Votes SC and ubertimmy in 30.
-Defends Yos and votes Glork in 33.
-Unvotes Glork in 34.
-I see more links with bird in 42.
-More Yosdefense and pabsattack in her big post.
-Really wants Phoebus to die, see 51.
-Phoebus must die... *yawn*
-Doesn't want Yos or Pooky to be executed (55).
-Votes Glork in 59. (this is Day Three, after Glork executed Pooky)
-Sudden flip-flop on Yos, seems to push for Yos as a lynch.
-Doesn't get the case on MoS.

Odd here, a flip-flop. Yos and Glork are her major targets here, while she was voting Phoebus throughout most of the game and defending Yos.

-Removes Glork from personal LoE.
-Can see a MoS-execution now that she believes Glork is town.
-CTD is second.
-Attacks RafK in 106.
-Votes Smashy and MoS in 123. Odd argument for voting Smashy, needs to be looked at.
-Wants MoS or Smashy dead, but not VitaminR.
-Wants to see Smashy go.
-Doesn't like CTD (136).
-Votes MoS in 145.
-Would prefer Fritz over MoS (147).
-Votes Fritz and MoS in 148.


That's pretty much it. A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on. Her behaviour regarding Phoebus is very odd as well, going from needs to die to should live. There's also a flip-flop on Glork, which may have something to do with no one following her in trying to get Glork killed and a flip-flop on MoS, where she says she doesn't get his case at first but then votes him later on and keeps trying to get him killed. Doesn't like Fritz either, but at that point, I think her posting was fairly irrelevant, so that could be just plain ol' distancing.

[Yosarian2]

All right. I read the period of the game where I demanded everyone comment on everyone of my list of execustion to find what everyone had to say about SV. Here's a summery:

Cavane (rep. Der Hammer/Vaughn) was lurking, I believe.

Fritzler : Refused to answer

KaleiÐoscøpe (rep. bird1111) : Unsure
[quote] SV: Hammer possibility[/quote]

Later comment:

[quote="KaleiDoscope"]
MoS and SV are people that I could live with being lynched. Both have acted scummy over the past days. They aren't the main people I would hammer if I had the chance, but I can see the reasons of others on why they would want either of them hammered.[/quote]


Lowell (rep. cardb0ardb0x) Wanted to lynch SV
[quote] Lynch for SV and Smashy[/quote]

Mastermind of Sin: Didn’t want to kill SV, with a bit of wierdness in his post.
[quote="MOS"] SV: No kill, I think he's just misguided at worst, but possibly scum. It's not like I've made an effort to "look" protown this game.[/quote]

mnowax (rep. Battle Mage/Smashy/Dead Rikimaru)

King petroleumjelly :Wanted SV killed
[quote] SV: Yes; I think she should have been dead yesterday[/quote]

RafK (rep. Mert) :Wanted SV killed
[quote="RaFK"]
SV: Yes. My opinion has not changed. If we got any information out of the Pooky execution (and subsequently from Glork being proven town) it is that SV is on the wrong side.[/quote]

ThAdmiral (replacing Olio/StallingChamp/ChannelDelibird) : Did not want SV killed
[quote] SV: maybe, leaning towards no. There are better plays at the moment in my opinion.[/quote]

Thesp (rep. pablito) Unsure, not really in favor of lynching her
[quote="pablito"] SV: Hammer possibility[/quote]

[quote="pablito"]
spectrumvoid - Keep her alive for now. I think SV was clearly the better choice to execute yesterday and it'd be good for Smashy to explain that. But nonetheless, SV still appears fairly neutral to me. She has shown some good town moments, and I'm more apt to believe that she's town than scum. It is good to see pressure on SV however and I hope she contributes a lot today knowing that she's on the block. Also, I hope that people mention SV independent of her being a suspect yesterday. It is way too easy to fall into the mindset of "well it was between LL and SV yesterday and since LL came up town..." just to suspect SV.[/quote]

Toaster Strudel (rep. Nightson / Vikingfan) :Failed to answer; commented on other players, but avoided commenting on SV at all that day. Which is especally interesting, as she had voted SV the previous day.

VitaminR (rep. DragonsofSummer/Phoebus) :In favor of killing SV, no explination at first.
[quote="VitimanR"] SV: Yes.[/quote]

Gave better explination for SV vote after I asked for one.

[quote="VitimanR"] spectrumvoid:
- "Giving up is a scum-tell"
She said this cardb0ardb0x early Day 1, voting him as well. Horrible reason.

- Awful Phoebus vote for playing by gut
She voted Phoebus just after one of his first posts (I think) because he based his votes on gut. Another bad and very easy reason to vote someone.

- jumping on the pablito wagon
I think this pertains to the pablito wagon Day 1, based on the deviations from his normal style of play, which I didn't like at all. The fact that pablito defended Glork was in no way suspicious to me and jumping on it reminded me strongly of the two notes cited above.

- Glork vote for a mispresentation (not enough that late in the game)
Glork misinterpreted someone's posts as King. I didn't think it was enough to base a vote on.

- subtly criticises LL for finding a lot of people pro-town
Voting LL because of his "townie tells" is scummy. Fits with the pattern of the above.

- Bad Glork vote
She voted Glork for executing Pooky. Basically.

- Attacks LL for supporting Pooky when his support came very late and was pretty pro-townish
LL defends all the people he assigns "townie tells" to and he pretty much changed his mind about Pooky very late and very obviously. That would be incredibly stupid for scum. Attacking him for that is another easy vote and takes the facts at face value without looking into the intent behind them. At a point where a Pooky execution seems likely, it is counterproductive for scum to defend him.

- "joining in the mutiny"
A DR vote. Following the crowd, which is, again, very convenient.

There's a pretty clear pattern there of not giving her own reasoning nor attempting to construct her own arguments or her own sense of who might be scum.[/quote]

Zindaras (rep. Pariah / Machiavellian-Mafia): Wanted SV killed
[quote] Voidybuns: Yes. Definitely[/quote]

Note that SV was in favor of an MOS lynch and opposed to a VitimanR lynch here.

[VitaminR]

Mainly RafK, Kaleidoscope and PJ who come out of that looking a bit scummy to me.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...I was thinking Kali, MOS, TS, and The Admeral moved up in my personal list of suspicion based on that.

Why do you say PJ?

[VitaminR]

Too definitive, it doesn't ring true.

It's probably influenced strongly by the fact that I want him executed, though.

[Cavane]

Was I lurking? I tend not to post when there's nothing to say and nothing being said. By the time I replaced in, it was just everyone asking for an LoE, and then posting their thoughts on said LoE when it came, both of which I did.

Oh, and then we argued about whether it's right to lynch for information. Be a good thread in Mafia Discussion when this game is over, but anyway... a few thoughts.

I don't like TS's lurking in plain sight of late.

I don't understand VitR's last comment. Those are all people who said yes to killing SV. If you're thinking bus,

A) That's a lot of poeple on the bus.

B) There were many others that supoorted an SV execution, why did you pick these three?

And I'd like Fritz to answer that eloquent question, as well, and I might add 'and why?' to the end of it.

[Yosarian2]

Cavane: I meant the person you replaced, der hammer, was lurking at the time; you had not replaced in yet. However, now that I take a close look, it looks like der hammer did make a couple of comments about the SV lynch; he was opposed to lynching SV.

Out of the two (LL and SV) I know think LL is the better choice based on LL's recent posts.

bye Pablito,


Out of those 4 I would go this way, Didn't like the way he handed being King and then I think my encoutner with MOS earlier left him reeking of scum

Vitiman R:No
SV:No
Smashy:yes.
MOS:Yes

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Well, you may all find me scummy now. Just wait 'till Fritzscum and Mnowaxscum are dead.

[Toaster Strudel]

In my opinion, the most logical thing to remark is that Voidybuns is defending Vitty.

That could also be true.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod, can you prod Friztler and Mnowax?

I don't think I've seen them post in a while, and at least one of them is probably scum.

[RafK]

That's pretty much it. A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on. Her behaviour regarding Phoebus is very odd as well, going from needs to die to should live. There's also a flip-flop on Glork, which may have something to do with no one following her in trying to get Glork killed and a flip-flop on MoS, where she says she doesn't get his case at first but then votes him later on and keeps trying to get him killed. Doesn't like Fritz either, but at that point, I think her posting was fairly irrelevant, so that could be just plain ol' distancing.

As a note, Yosarian did exactly the same about-face on Phoebus/VR. I read it at the time as "oh god, if he dies and comes up town we're in for it", but it could as easily have been "enough distancing, we don't actually want him dead" I suppose. It never really came up as a possibility before to me. Let it be said it remains far down my list of possibilities, though (it only exists at all for the very OMGUS reason that his opening attack today is against exactly the wrong people).

I think the about-face on Glork was definitely a "please don't kill me!" thing.

MoS could be mutual bussing or could be scum willing to attack anyone to live, who knows? Similarly Fritz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...And the game dies....

[Cavane]

I'm waiting on Fritz, really. I think he's the center of attention today. Or at least right now.