[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[St Constantine the Hermit]

King's Civil War Mafia

2 Mafia Yakuza
1 Mafia Pretender

5 Vanilla Town

1 Loyalist King
1 Loyalist Recruiter
1 Loyalist Vig

- Mafia wincon: Win when the Loyalist King is eliminated and there are more mafia than loyalists
- Loyalist wincon: Win when the Pretender is eliminated and there are more loyalists than mafia
- Town wincon: Win when one faction is completely eliminated
- Loyalist Recruiter and 2 Mafia Yakuza's pick one player each to recruit before game begins
- Players recruited into the mafia or the loyalists wont know which faction they joined, just whom the king/pretender of the faction is
- If the loyalist recruiter, or a yakuza dies, all the players the person in particular recruited become vanilla townies again. This is not announced to the other players.

I've hosted this set up on another site before, and it got lots of positive reception. Does someone want to give it a go here?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

4p setups

Rebels in the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo*. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the other Rebel is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

*This is optimal for scum.

Spoiler: Variations

Guarding the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

Guard

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

Escaping the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

King

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the

Guard

's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or the Guard is called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and the Guard isn't called out.

I would play rebels in the palace with 12 players

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Okay, I refined the kings civil war set-up to look more like mafia

1 mafia informer
1 mafia goon

5 vanilla town
1 town king
1 town informer

- The mafia informer informs a player that the wrong player is king
-Game starts in the night with the mafia inform picking one player to inform, and the town informer picking one player to confirm the king's identity to.
- Town Win Con: Protecting the King + Eliminating Scum
- Mafia Win Con: Killing the King
- NK is allowed by goon on N1

Why this design is superior
- The informer mechanic is flavorful, because it allows town to know who they are protecting, but at the risk of informing mafia
- The town has the advantage of informing players of the king.
- Mafia has the advantage of informing players who the wrong king is.

There is much more confusion and strategy for the PR's to ponder on.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

TBH I'm not sure why Bicephalous Bob created the rule that the night kill fails on convicted suspects.
There isn't a reason for it (to my knowledge) and it can create a 1 vs 1 counter claiming scenario.
If the

goon

could kill convicted suspects, then it would be incredibly stupid to claim

innocent suspect

. There would just be two night kills on the claimed

innocent suspect

and

mafia

would win.
I think

llamafluff

brings up a legitimate point.

Mafia

night kills should either work on all convicted suspects, or work on the

innocent convicted suspect

.

Thoughts?

Why the hell did I add color? Because I could....

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Partially inspired by Titus's don't trust the cops set-up

Clean Town

Rehabilitation Specialist (3)
Highway Cop (1)

Drunk Town

Rolecop (1)
Allignment Cop (1)
Visitor (1)
Compulsive Paranoid Alignment Cop (1)

Hopelessly Drunk Town

Cheerleader (1)
Potent Visitor (1)

Mafia

Bootlegger (3)

Third Party "Blind Tiger"

Barkeeper (1)

Win Conditions

Town Wincon:

You win when all townies are clean, or when any threats to prohibition are put down

Mafia Wincon:

You win when all townies are dependent on booze, or when your team outnumbers all non-mafia

Third Party Wincon:

You win by surviving until the end of the game

Modifiers

Clean:

Role functions normally

Drunk:

Informative roles will send feedback to a random player

Hopelessly Drunk:

Must target or receive alcohol from a vendor to continue living.

Unique Roles

Rehabilitation Specialist:

Can target a player each night, and change their alcohol influence negatively, e.g, drunk --> clean . If targetted, that player will automatically have their alcohol influence lowered

Highway Cop:

Can target a player each night and detect how much alcohol influence they have

Cheerleader:

Is very motivated to motivate. Has twice the power of a normal motivator

Potent Visitor:

Can target a player each night. If a bootlegger or barkeep, the potency of their alcohol will increase.

Bootlegger:

Can target a player each night, and change their alcohol influence positively, e.g, drunk --> hopelessly drunk. If targetted, that player will automatically have their alcohol influence raised

Barkeeper:

When targeted, that player will raise in alcohol influence each day. If you do not have any customers during a night, you will commit suicide.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Yes, I forgot to mention something really important about the set-up when I rewrote it the second time.
Hopelessly drunk players cannot have their alcohol influence lowered once they become hopelessly drunk. That means multiple claimed powerroles can die during any given night.

If I added more visitors, scum would have more room to manouver during claiming, but I think that would make them overpowerred since both factions are easily capable of winning within 4 days depending on how strategic they are. It isn't a long game set-up by any means.
-----

The barkeeper being the only role which can save hopelessly drunk townies from death, the scum play would involve getting as many players hopelessly drunk as possible, and then eliminate the barkeeper so all the dependent townies die.

With all this said, replacing the role cop with a visitor would alleviate the mass claiming problem, but I still think massclaiming is a bad play for town since the rate of losses ends the game relatively between 4 and 5 days, and even with everybody claiming, mafia could take out half the town powerroles, since there are only three rehab specialists which are the games only protective role, and 6 powerroles alltogether.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Tl;DR

With the rule that was absent from my set-up post, massclaiming is a guaranteed scum win, unless town can get at least two consecutive scum lynches.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Modified

Clean Town

Rehabilitation Specialist (3)
Highway Cop (1)

Drunk Town

Allignment Cop (1)
Visitor (3)
Compulsive Paranoid Alignment Cop (1)

Hopelessly Drunk Town

Cheerleader (1)
Potent Visitor (1)

Mafia

Bootlegger (3)

Third Party "Blind Tiger"

Barkeeper (1)

Win Conditions

Town Wincon:

You win when all townies are clean, or when any threats to prohibition are put down

Mafia Wincon:

You win when all townies are dependent on booze, or when your team outnumbers all non-mafia

Third Party Wincon:

You win by surviving until the end of the game

Modifiers

Clean:

Role functions normally

Drunk:

Informative roles will send feedback to a random player

Hopelessly Drunk:

Must target or receive alcohol from a vendor to continue living. Once hopelessly drunk, your alcohol influence cannot be lowered through use of rehab specialists.

Unique Roles

Rehabilitation Specialist:

Can target a player each night, and change their alcohol influence negatively, e.g, drunk --> clean . If targetted, that player will automatically have their alcohol influence lowered

Highway Cop:

Can target a player each night and detect how much alcohol influence they have

Cheerleader:

Is very motivated to motivate. Has twice the power of a normal motivator

Potent Visitor:

Can target a player each night. If a bootlegger or barkeep, the potency of their alcohol will increase.

Bootlegger:

Can target a player each night, and change their alcohol influence positively, e.g, drunk --> hopelessly drunk. If targetted, that player will automatically have their alcohol influence raised

Barkeeper:

When targeted, that player will raise in alcohol influence each day. If you do not have any customers during a night, you will commit suicide.[/quote]

[St Constantine the Hermit]

So the cheerleader can't do anything other than visit the bar?

Bartender or a bootlegger. The cheerleader and the potent visitor are purposefully anti-town. The best move would obviously be to find the bartender day one, because the bartender can win with both factions. This dynamic exists to make a bootlegger-bartender alliance not a reality every game.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I am sorry, but I still don't see how it is broken by massclaim.
Someone is going to have to explain it to me, because a masslclaim looks like town suicide from my POV.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

There would be overlapping claims which would indicate some people are lying, but scum can kill multiple people any given night, so if scum claimed visitor or rehabilitation specialist, I don't see any realistic way for town to be able to lynch them all before scum forces everyone into becoming hopelessly drunk.

So basically as the scum faction, you know who is honestly a rehabilitation specialist or visitor so you can kill them, but town is left completely in the dark.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Except scum can kill multiple of those claimed unique poweroles any night if they have their alcohol influence increased and become hopelessly drunk.

I appreciate constructive feedback, but I am telling you that any attempt at a massclaim would result in a town loss. Hopelessly drunk players die without the bartender, and scum can make 1-3 people hopelessly drunk each night, depending on whether they stack up on a clean player or the confirmed day one drunk roles once each.

So yeah, you have 5 confirmed players upon day one, but you are still left with a lynchpool of 10 players (assuming the bartender doesn't claim), and unless town flawlessly stops every bootlegger through use of night actions, anywhere between 1 and 5 of those day one confirmed townies would be dead.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

*would be dead by the start of day three

I am adding one nightkill that is effective on the bartender, just because him claiming makes the role essentially OP town and not third party, whereas if scum have a nightkill that only works on the bartender, that role will probably not claim day one, stopping a bunch of townies from leaching on him for protection.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Yes, one night kill that only works on the bartender

The cheerleader is a super motivator, and super just means double the power. It is a dangerous role if it targets scum.

Potent visitor has the same concept as the cheerleader. It makes the alcohol vendor a permanent superrole,

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Here is my attempt at simplifying the set-up to make it more marketable.

Clean Town

Rehabilitation Specialist (3)
Highway Cop (1)

Drunk Town

Rolecop (1)
Visitor (5)

Hopelessly Drunk Town

Cheerleader (1)

Mafia

Bootlegger (3)

Third Party

Barkeeper (1)

#1 - Rehab is ineffective on Hopelessly Drunk Townies
#2 - Bootleggers and the bartender will always show up as drunk upon inspection by the Highway Cop
#3 - Scum have one night kill that is effective on only the bartender. It can be used by a bootlegger at the expense of his or her normal night action

[St Constantine the Hermit]

It is almost my turn to mod on the Open Queue. Can someone explain what kind of set-up I would be modding, and how it would be chosen?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

The godfather of chaos set-ups

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)
Visitors (4)

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)

Arsonist (1)

(from Titus's "Don't trust the Cops" set-up)

Open JOAT is an ability that can use any conventional role a night
The vanguard is a role which protects all who target it, but also gets the power of whomever targetted the slot for that night. In this game, the vanguard role simply gets an extra JOAT shot each time it is targeted.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

"can use any conventional role" Mafia used Vigilante, they now have 3 kills a night.

As a note, it seems logistical that town would either use Cop or use Watcher.

I do need to start being more clear about this. In the last three set-ups I proposed here, mafia had no nightkill considering they could kill townies each night through other means.

I am open to a more conventional set-up where killing roles are denied, and mafia has a normal nightkill.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Here is my set-up. Not only is it simple, but it is also really good.

Town

Motivator (1)
1-shot JOAT inventor (1)
0-shot assistant JOAT inventor (1)
Vanilla Town (4)

Mafia

Proteus (1)
Goon (2)

- Each JOAT ability (roleblocker, doctor, cop vig) has a 25% chance of being given out as an invention
- Proteus gives out negative utility role modifiers for the next day/night cycle (voteless, hated, self hammerer, drunk, or even a post restriction)

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Yes, I know, best set-up ever, right?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Would people be more interested if I gave it a name? What about boozeboy XXX mafia?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Town

Motivator (1)
1-shot JOAT inventor (1)
0-shot backup JOAT inventor (1)
Vanilla Town (4)

Mafia

Proteus (1)
Goon (2)

- Each JOAT ability (roleblocker, doctor, cop, vig, and tracker) has a 20% chance of being given out as an invention
- Since there was confusion, I should also clarify that the motivator can fill a 0-shot invention to make it a 1-shot invention, although it expires after use
- Proteus gives out utility role modifiers for the next day/night cycle (voteless, hated, drunk, compulsive, delayed, weak, macho, beloved, and ninja)

Fixed it a little to make it more versatile. Also think it is a learning game for newbies since it deals with 5 of the really common roles and a lot of the modifiers seen in games, without being overly complex.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I don't really understand, why is there a 0-shot backup JOAT inventor, isn't that just a named townie.

I thought it was self explanatory, but I guess not.

The motivator makes a 0-shot JOAT invention into a 1-shot JOAT invention. I'll clarify that.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I don't want to be pushy, but can I get some feedback on my set-up. It has almost been two days since I proposed it, and I haven't really got any serious feedback? I think it is really high quality, perhaps it is even the best set-up I have created in my years of mafia.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I got to be honest pisskop, I cannot understand the excel sheet unless you give the rows and columns labels. I am just stupid like that.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@BBmolla
Okay, so my thoughts on your improvements. I think you need to leave in the rule that the role modifiers only work for one day/night cycle like I originally had. Otherwise mafia is incredibly overpowered. So for example, voteless and beloved only modify a role for the next day and night.

I like the idea of the inventor having a choice between the 5 abilities he wants to hand out. I would leave that since it adds more strategy. Not sure if you should just let him have infinite inventions for each ability though or would that be overpowered?

The second thing I wouldn't change is the 0-shot backup inventor and motivator combo, since this is what makes the set-up unique, and promotes cooperation between the powerroles if the Inventor dies.

@Bicephalous Bob

I agree that the inventor that needs his inventions filled should have a different name altogether. Let me look up synonyms...

How about

Designer

,

Architect

, or

Founder

And again, the reason why I want this role in the game is because the motivator/inventor mutual reliance combo would literally make for a kickass game.

@Ika

Yea, I thought about that too, but I think it is best if you give scum as many options as possible to be honest. Even if one of the modifiers will be used rarely, I still like the idea of scum having in their arsenal just in case they want to do something creative.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Hermit's Paradise

14 Players

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Proteus

1 Motivator
1 Inventor
1 Backup Designer
8 VTs

[/color]

• Inventor can give out the following each once per game: 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doc, 1-shot Vig, 1-shot Roleblock, 1-shot Tracker.
  
• If Inventor gives out all abilities, his inventory is restocked.
  
• The Designer can hand out an empty invention of the following each once per game only if the Inventor dies: Cop Blueprints, Doc Blueprints, Vig Blueprints, Roleblock Blueprints, Tracker Blueprints.
  
• If the Designer gives out all blueprints, his inventory is restocked.
  
• The Motivator can fill an empty invention sent out by the Designer.
  
• Proteus can give out the following role modifiers once per game to modify a role for one day/night cycle: Voteless, Hated, Drunk, Compulsive, Delayed, Weak, Macho, Beloved, and Ninja

Thanks for the feedback. I do actually think that is balanced to be honest. Some of the scum modifiers can be devastating, which offsets what is in my opinion a very role heavy town for such a small design. That might also be because I have a different perspective of what balanced looks like, but nonetheless I think it would be a lot of fun.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Good question about the motivator. MS often does things differently than I am used too, because the way I always did it, is that the motivator affects the target the night it decides to motivate. Usually you would just inform the player motivated that they can use another shot, but you could discard this if the motivator takes to long to use his action (such as right before the night deadline), in which case it would be invalid.

If I were modding this game here though, I personally would let the motivator send in his action at any time, and it would always affect the player on the

next

night.

Also yes, the motivator is more or less the same besides being able to fill designs, which is an entirely new role designed for this game which essentially functions as a 0-shot inventor.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Yes, I can get behind that.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@Hitogoroshi - Hated might be too powerful. I see nothing wrong with a mod removing it. You have to be careful because many of those powerful modifiers are what keep the game balanced.

Beloved isn't really a vig. It only works for the next day and night, as per the rules. Like all the other modifiers, the townie who recieves it is informed he has the modifier, but maybe there does need to be a rule that the beloved modifier only works during the day. I don't like adding to many rules though, as I prefer to keep the set-up simple, but I guess if enough people thought it was necessary...

The drunk modifier is like Pisskop described. Credit for that modifier goes to Titus, who used it in one of her recent finished modded games. I really love that modifier and it is one of my favorites.