[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Cheery Dog]

That's not going to be fair to the second scum, once one goon is gone, both lynches leave the game? that's just going to be easy association of who the red lyncher was saving from being lynched if the red goon was lynched first.
Though I guess if they stayed in the game they might end up lynched, but playing a game you've already lost isn't fun.

[Cheery Dog]

In that setup the lynchers are effectively just townies with an easier win condition.

Same reason goes to demon core's suggestion (though replace lynches with hunters and townies with 1x vigs)

[Cheery Dog]

what happens if two people successfully hide behind each other?

[Cheery Dog]

A TheyChoose game?

[Cheery Dog]

Jungle Republic is similar, but there isn't a cop for the mafia and mafia don't have a night kill.

[Cheery Dog]

Town C and town D would just scarfice themselves to get an insta town win?

[Cheery Dog]

The alt town win chin is too easy to achieve, I wouldn't even bother playing mafia. The player that goes first in naughts and crosses always win unless they don't know the corner strategy.

[Cheery Dog]

If they fail to win they're not thinking though their moves correctly. a correctly placed cross day 2 will ensure town victory.

Oh wait the normal before win con may stop it from happening if the mafia members get lucky about where they are placed. Still it's not a good crossover for mafia and would just end up being a shorter version of chess mafia.
If you play it like a normal game, you might have to policy lynch yourself to a loss to stop yourself losing. If you play it like normal naughts and crosses mafia's chance to win comes to luck.

I guess if the board was hidden, it could work, but then you get a random win from nowhere.

[Cheery Dog]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

I didn't think right about the nought in the centre square as the second move, and where the 4th move would then be placed0, but still there's no way for mafia to actually win by getting their noughts in a line.
I assume that's why you made the middle square confirmed town because otherwise a mafia in that square would give town the win.

[Cheery Dog]

I think the different targets would also have to count crosskills.
Have it that a maximum of 2 people can die maybe. (but then maybe not with night 2 onwards not having any deaths anyway)

[Cheery Dog]

Rather than 1-shot RB it might be more balanced to go with a N1-only RB. Then they can't use it against the Werewolves, forex.

Non N1, because N1 is when werewolves kill.

Unless it's just one that stops investigative roles from working and the kills are strongmaned.

[Cheery Dog]

It sounds similar to Star-Crossed to me.
Or at least how that's how it could work.

[Cheery Dog]

Can you make an invincible circle of hiders?

[Cheery Dog]

Even just two hiders hiding behind each other boosts town win rates by a lot.

Though the real point of the question is out that happens, are either out those hiders targetable

[Cheery Dog]

There's the sense of something I was missing.

[Cheery Dog]

Connect the answers to the right question UN.
reposnse to petapan's question was

Imo since mafia/vig did not target hider b hider a lives

that answer you gave was a reponse to

Even just two hiders hiding behind each other boosts town win rates by a lot.

Though the real point of the question is out that happens, are either out those hiders targetable

[Cheery Dog]

Most games here have day starts, it probably changes the mechanics you just said I where I think you had a night start.

[Cheery Dog]

Does the goon flip when daytalk is chosen show that power exists?

[Cheery Dog]

Can you recruit the traitor at a later time, or is it only an option pregame?

I still like the idea behind the setup.

[Cheery Dog]

Well why would you want to turn a goon into a "Godfather" (aka gooncop immune with the veryweak bulletproof) instead of turning a goon into an interesting role (rolecop or JOAT) that would also get the gooncop immune part?

Picking Godfather seems like a totally awful option for the scumteam.

Because role cop is just as useless in the long run usually?
Plus it gives the tracker something else that is trackable.

[Cheery Dog]

Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Jailkeeper and Town Roleblocker all in the one setup, sounds bad to resolve, especially when you add the SK's abilities to that mix as well.

---

How balanced from a two scumteam vengeful be? (5 town, v 2 scums of godfather (still with lynch = loss) and goon)

[Cheery Dog]

If town were lynched day one you'd always want to intimidate that person, wouldn't you? Either you're reconfirming an already confirmed town player or having your action blocked (and thus not revealing anything).

If the watcher is lynched day 1, then yes you'd do that.

[Cheery Dog]

An example of that would be Micro 17.

[Cheery Dog]

Vanilla Cop shows vanilla on goon and non-vanilla on Cop/godfather?

[Cheery Dog]

Hmm. That actually gives me an idea.

White Flag Multiball

8-11 Townies (what is balanced?)
3 Mafia
3 Werewolves
Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.

Thoughts?

I'm assuming nights are included?

[Cheery Dog]

For some reason I thought white flag was a nightless setup.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't know the actual White Flag setup but I think you're right. However, this one isn't.

no I checked the wiki, I was wrong. *it's black flag (nightless) that's nightless.

[Cheery Dog]

Ah okay.

But does anyone know what's balanced here? My guess would be 10 VTs, but I have no idea.

Of the three open approved multiball setups on the wiki, Fire and Ice has 8:2:2, Friends and Enemies and Enemies has 8:2:2 and Mason and Monks is 9:2:2.

Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.

Yeah I think with increased scum you need to up the amount of VTs the game had original (White Flag is a 10:3 setup)
12 or 14 townies would work I think.

[Cheery Dog]

All 3 win when Revolutionaries win.

So King just needs to kill himself and he wins?

[Cheery Dog]

D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.

Don't you mean that if that vig dies, one of the 3 is confirmed scum? (or one is confirmed vig?) The game breaking strategy would need a bit more work than just that.

(though them living would confirm the 3 targetting to either all be town or all scum)

[Cheery Dog]

I can't see where they're treated like hiders. As far as my reading is, they're roleblockers, which if not roleblocked kill.

Why would B die there?

[Cheery Dog]

A->D
B->D
C->D
D (vig) takes no action...

Is 3 people targetting the one person.

[Cheery Dog]

Bumping this one because I think it has potential after thinking about it for awhile.

Cold Stone

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather

?

Similar to Carbon 14, but both cops are useful. Just differently useful. Vanilla Cop is more powerful obviously. Maybe make Godfather variate with a Goon?

Edit:

Cold Stone V2

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather OR Goon

Playing around with a Friends and Enemies...

Enemy of My Enemy

9x Vanilla
--
1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia Amnesic Seer (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)
--
1x Wolf Goon
1x Wolf Amnesic Cop (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)

Basically playing the scum against eachother. Wolf can find mafia. Mafia can find wolf. Can either pass the results to their partner, give results on their partner, lots of room for different plans of attack.

Stone Cold seems more like Twin Trap actually. I think it could work in Mirco though.

I think town has a disadvantage in EoME, as I don't know why you wouldn't just give the results to your buddy as scum. (and they wouldn't reveal it to town even if it was the other team - if they want them dead, they're just night kill them.)
I guess it would get interesting if either goon dies though.
Overall it's a multiball mountainous feel to it.

[Cheery Dog]

Thinking about it more though, the scum are obviously going to favor killing and lynching unmarked targets

Go with says ones that can't be marked - like Chosen Mafia?

[Cheery Dog]

So attempt to lynch everyone you gave a 0?

[Cheery Dog]

So attempt to lynch everyone you gave a 0?

I don't understand.

My strategy starting a game like that, would assuming the vts team works the same, and I drew vt - lynch the people I gave low scores to on the belief it makes them not on my team.

(unless you just meant masons as a team, in which case it possiblity wouldn't work as a strategy)

[Cheery Dog]

Sounds like a fancy mountain.

[Cheery Dog]

With the amount of kill stopping available, it's likely to have a lot of no kills, so I think 33% mafia works.

[Cheery Dog]

Does the cult-recruiter just give someone else a win as cult?
I guess there's the small possibility that whoever would have been culted died before it gets done, but for whoever is being recruited doesn't actually act as cult?

[Cheery Dog]

Do mafia know who each other are in that setup?

[Cheery Dog]

I believe it was decided in this thread that's it's based on the number of players you need to sign up.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't likwithe either setup B or C. (In fact I think GF/Cop is worse than 2 goons/cop)

I agree with this and also want to add setup 3 into the horrible category.

[Cheery Dog]

Again, why? I'm going to need more specifics than "I vaguely dislike this setup." Especially when you just added a setup which was one of the ones I considered to be least controversial.

For the same reason 2of4's only town power is the doctor was bad.
Yes it gets you a confirmed scum rather than a 99% confirmed town by being on the night kill, but the premise still feels the same to me.

[Cheery Dog]

That's why we need to just take out the doctor as well.

[Cheery Dog]

Let me see...
1 Cop (random sanity between sane and insane)
1 backup cop (random sanity)
1 backup backup cop (random sanity)
1 Psychologist (sane)
5 Vanilla Townie (Random sanities)
2 Mafia Goon (Random sanities)
1 Mafia Rolecop (Can see backup cop and backup backup cop roles) (Random sanity)

No one is aware of their sanities unless the psychologist tells them.

Is this more balanced? Does this present the psychologist nicely?

The backup cops seem redundant in just giving town extra known roles.
The psychologist would have to sacrifice himself to get result(s) out there for people, but I guess it could work.
I do think you should lose the backup backup though.

[Cheery Dog]

hider a behind hider b
Hider b behind hider a
Scum shoot hider a

Solution. Please actually consider these problems when wanting a game with multiple hiders.

[Cheery Dog]

So that includes a big circle of hiding people?

[Cheery Dog]

I have a question for you guys.

Say there is no limit on how many people town is allowed to lynch per day. (days are only limited by time)

However, the lynch flips are delayed until the day phase ends.

Is this a buff to town?

I believe there is a mechanic that has been used that does this called light's out.
I know I played one offsite (and town deciding to play with one lynch a day there failed epically)

[Cheery Dog]

5 VTs
1 Red Mafia
1 Blue Mafia

Mafias know the identity of each other
Nightless
Town wins on 1:1:1

Thoughts?

Lynch randomly until either town wins our maybe one scum dead

[Cheery Dog]

Scam kill whoever they were meant to be giving a fruit to, that town member is then unable to report.
(Would then be able to get an easy mislynch if the scums were actually next to each other, and this plan was thought as how it happened by town.)

[Cheery Dog]

I went as the kill happening before the fruit.

[Cheery Dog]

Have all fail and give that team a strike per extra shot attempted. 3 strikes and they lose a shot.

This would assuming all three tried to use their power nights 1 & 2, would still have a shot to decide what to do with night 3, which would cease to exist if just two of them tried that night.

[Cheery Dog]

The non-gunbearer thing sounds like it would be good. I'd do it so they had a multi-shot of picking someone that couldn't be the next gunbearer.

Having mafia vengekill a non-gunbearer would be more useful for their team as they would then be able to pick off the people that obviously weren't going to be shot by any town player.

[Cheery Dog]

It's townsided, as Leafsnail points out (and, since there's no communicating mafia faction, I think it's not really mafia?). But it's also misnamed, surely. Wouldn't a better fit for the name "Monty hall mafia" involve the mod revealing that one of the players not on the lynch was VT, and then giving the players the chance to switch or not switch from the original lynch? (This has the same problems though, as far as EV goes).

As it's listed as a 3 player game, that would be the same person.

[Cheery Dog]

That sounded good up until mafia being forced to fakeclaim.

[Cheery Dog]

When a player is lynched they submit a name of a player they want to die and chooses if they want it under shell 1, 2 or 3.

Claim shell number, instant vengekill working.

Also it means scum can't do any actual kills.

Why would scum then choose the claimed shell?

[Cheery Dog]

Bulletproof would just hane the miller claim d1 anyway - 2 cop investigations (assuming the cop still gets one the night the miller dies) is enough to win if the mafia is forced to kill that way twice. (or otherwise cop hunt, which is never fun if a game depends on it)

If you want out as a micro I've go with what you're got there.

[Cheery Dog]

Can't you shoot the cop innocent night 2?

Then the cop stays alive to get another result, and town effectively gets to direct the scum kill for multiple days. Unless scum counterclaim the cop day 2 (which is probably a bad idea), the cop's confirmed town in that situation, and with the miller dead, there's no doubt about the results.

Only if the cop-enabler miller is still alive.

[Cheery Dog]

Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)

[Cheery Dog]

Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)

No one will have a majority of Ivory votes, so

no one

will be bulletproof. It devolves back to Mountainous in that case.

TierShift: You can't give Town an uncounterclaimable Power with the Ivory mechanic. You can't give scum any power at all without making the imbalance worse. I think it's better with the purity of "Mountainous" at its core.

I read it as more ivory than abony, makes more sense when I don't read it wrong.

[Cheery Dog]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?

OH

Another idea

Make the Hider a Hider Ninja.

aka a normal hider

[Cheery Dog]

hiders can be tracked by targetting their target, confirming the target as town

As long as it is that way. The problem is hard boiled allowed the tracker to actually track the hider without going through that method.

But even fixing this obvious error is how the roles would normally work isn't going to fix scum winning everytime the player chooses vig.

[Cheery Dog]

Death and Taxes

v1.0

Vanilla Townie x7

Town Tax Collector x2

Town Homeless x1

Mafia Goon x3

• Tax Collectors target three players. They are informed of how many of their three targets pay taxes, but not exactly who.
• Mafia members and Homeless players do not pay taxes.

I have no idea how well balanced this is, but I like the general idea (

Mastermind

-style investigative roles).

Do Tax Collectors pay taxes?

[Cheery Dog]

I had a secondary idea where, one a player pays taxes once, they no longer pay on subsequent nights. So you can't just keep picking the same 2 people and changing 1 of them. How would that work?

They become night 1 cops (assuming there are still 2 of them there)
Also with 2 listed there, what would happen if they both targeted the same person?

[Cheery Dog]

What if the non-doc mafia dies, the doc becomes BP

Give it self-doc powers?

[Cheery Dog]

On that lastest version
One of the town cops claims, and you go follow the cop.

After that team has been eliminated, the other cop claims.

[Cheery Dog]

I assume you meant to have the macho modifer in it still

But Llamafluff's last line in 7229 is very valid.

[Cheery Dog]

Memento Mori

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Last Will Vigilante
1 Town Last Will Jailkeeper
9 Vanilla Townspersons

All players with the Last Will modifier must keep a Last Will at all times. These are submitted privately to the moderated either via PM or via Quicktopic. This Last Will must target another living player. If a player with the Last Will modifier dies, the target of their Last Will immediately receives their role, including the Last Will modifier, but their alignment remains unchanged.

A

Mafia Last Will Jailkeeper

may either perform the factional nightkill or jailkeep a target on a given night, but not both. A

Mafia Last Will Vigilante

does not have a personal kill, however, if they perform the factional nightkill, it gains the Sledgehammer modifier.

Note: If the mafia collect both the gun and the key, then they become useless, but individually they're useful tools for dealing with the other one. I found that amusing.

This any better, then?

If Mafia dies day one, and two deaths, or the one death and a vig claim of not killing anyone the jailkeeper role will break open the game.
I'm assuming here you have that they can't target their current lastwill target.
They give their last will to their target from night 1, and oust a new target for night 2.
Vig doesn't kill anybody.
This would give a new confirmed town for the same thing to happen and it's just follow the JK.

[Cheery Dog]

That doesn't even have to be day 1, if the original jailkeeper is still alive the day after a scum dies.

[Cheery Dog]

I think Donner Party should be the closest anything gets to no flip.

[Cheery Dog]

•Town wins only if they eliminate the knowledgeable survivor before the last scum member

That ^ Win condition doesn't seem fair to me... especially survior knows every one's alignment. Make the survivor as 3rd party with no knowledge on players alignment. that might balances with this win condition.

You're wanting to do popcorn - a town-sided setup even if the evos are whatever.
More scum is better.

[Cheery Dog]

Why is alignment changing such a no-no?

Do you like having your win condition change half-way though a game?

If you somehow do, can you please explain how you manage to do that with a day phases of 2 weeks of each alignment?
and other people having theirs changed as well.

[Cheery Dog]

Town dominates Mafia, the remainder then becomes mostly zombies.

You may have people that can withstand the infection/save infection, but overall it's still a cult game, where everyone is a cult leader with delays.

[Cheery Dog]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... mith_Alley

I made a setup and added it to the wiki instead of discussing whether it's balanced or not.

I'm going to have to discuss it's balance.

Poop is given to person below you on the playerlist, poopsmith can then act as a cop night 1 and monkeys can continue giving poop to the same people.

Or do monkeys.register as having poop before being given it? I'm thinking they possibly should (but then they shouldn't throw it?)

[Cheery Dog]

You're always going to have some town shoot, and the people signing up know this and therefore will he the ones to shoot. As the game it's based on, it's all luck who wins.

[Cheery Dog]

That's why I said element isn't revealed on death.

Your latest edition has an error where that wasn't the case.

Although I think I'd rather see more mislynches for the town, you have the numbers right as no kills blocked won't lose the game with a scum lynch at 5:3.
Although if 2 kills are stopped the game is practically over at 4:3 even with a scum lynch, I guess it would play out if there were at least one correct elemental doctor alive.

I think you should go with a less complex approach first though with multiple macho doctors against multiple mafia kills.

[Cheery Dog]

1 goon left, 3 docs

all docs claim, and do this at night:

water ->earth
earth-> fire
fire -> water

water vuln. to earth
earth vuln. to fire
fire vuln. to water

---

if earth dies, it's a fire goon still alive
water -> fire
fire -> water

still breakable

If town are able to kill two of the goons without losing a doctor, they've done well.
I'd get rid of the tracker though. I think it's too powerful even with macho status.

[Cheery Dog]

@Bob why are you blocking scum's kill on some nights if you get two T? You're allowing scum to know how many prs town has.

[Cheery Dog]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=22826

it was closed and larger, and I haven't actually read your setup idea, but that game happened.

[Cheery Dog]

It's very risky for the Mafia Babysitter to protect the Goon. By protecting a townie the Babysitter might die due to a stray and lucky Vig-shot so, maybe it's best not to use the ability at all.
Also, due to its small size and the two kills it may be very swingy.


Meanwhile, I'm working on the next version of my Setup.

*May keep the townie alive.

Babysitter isn't a bodyguard.

[Cheery Dog]

why does N get two roles?

[Cheery Dog]

They'd all die. (i assume they're babysitters without the doctor part) and scum win.

[Cheery Dog]

I am open for any changes that will improve the game setup but popcorn is one of few setups people dont mind it repeated over and over.. Its very entertaining when you play it.

For some people probably, but then that's the aim of most open setups, you're never going to get anywhere.

I know I'm not interested in any variation of popcorn as I didn't find the first one enjoyable.

[Cheery Dog]

Re: Domination
So the only way for mafia to die is for two to vote two of them into the thing?
It's pointless making the the game continue after two die then, as town will town who the third is.

I guess mafia may need to decide when to wifom someone if the other is likely to be brought up.
But town's best play is to just keep sending the person scum didn't kill to the chopping block.

[Cheery Dog]

If Mafia Roleblocker kills and roleblocks the Town Roleblocker and the Town Roleblocker roleblocks the Mafia roleblocker, what happens?

Everyone hates you for allowing the mafia roleblocker to kill and roleblock during the same night.

Having a mafia roleblocker role that is allowed to kill & block is basically an indication that town does not have blocking abilities.

[Cheery Dog]

Lightning Rods at least are blacklisted from normal games.
I think rainbow goo probably is as well, and possibly even survivor.

[Cheery Dog]

It's an open setup, Neapolitan therefore isn't a safeclaim, but a lynch me now claim.

[Cheery Dog]

Faith Healers just aren't a fun role.

Even if Faith +1 seemed to be a popular setup for some reason for a while in the open queue.

[Cheery Dog]

Bodyguard claims at start of the game. They choose someone to protect there. Scum can't go for just killing all the VT, because if they hit one that is protected, that's a town win. If the bodyguard ended up choosing a scum to protect, then scum would win, but it's too obvious a breaking chance to not go for it.
Or scum counterclaim, but a lynched bodyguard produces another bodyguard, which can't be CC'ed without losing the game.

The game is therefore just nightless with an IC

[Cheery Dog]

You have it listed as two scum.

Therefore backfiring results in the death of one scum, and the production of two confirmed town (who can't be killed).

It is impossible for scum to win that scenario.

[Cheery Dog]

Increasing the number of players so that it's not instant defeat if the scum try to kill who the bodyguard is protecting would solve the temporary solve the problem, but then what happens when it's down to 2 scum? The stratergy comes back.

Therefore that bodyguard is too OP.