, right? They can do one each cycle, not once per game?
That was the idea. Can't decide if its townsided or not. Of course it's gonna be swingy cause vigilante kills basically. But I'm thinking in terms of current small multiball setups. (BTW, I don't understand how 2:2:9 mountainous is considered balanced at all, next to F&E&E.)
In post 6875, Mr. Flay wrote:Biggest question, of course, is how many X Townies might be balanced.
The setup looks quite mountainous to me, with the only difference that there is someone guaranteed to live to the next day. I don't know how many townies you wanna add, but even 11:2 mountainous is a tad scumsided, so. You might consider throwing in some town power.
The Ivory votes keep scum from being able to always kill the towniest/leader, yes, which should help. I'm also curious about how the Ivory votes will provide additional information for scumhunting.
Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
In post 6871, Kaiveran wrote:Given that this seems to be "not sure if srs" season in this thread, I will have to point out that that this is, in fact, srs
quoting and updating to counter the bottom-of-page curse
In post 6879, Cheery Dog wrote:Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)
No one will have a majority of Ivory votes, so
no one
will be bulletproof. It devolves back to Mountainous in that case.
TierShift: You can't give Town an uncounterclaimable Power Role with the Ivory mechanic in place (see also: Angel Nightless). You can't give scum any power at all without making the imbalance worse. I think it's better with the purity of "Mountainous" at its core, but I'm open to suggestions of roles you think would work.
In post 6879, Cheery Dog wrote:Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)
No one will have a majority of Ivory votes, so
no one
will be bulletproof. It devolves back to Mountainous in that case.
TierShift: You can't give Town an uncounterclaimable Power with the Ivory mechanic. You can't give scum any power at all without making the imbalance worse. I think it's better with the purity of "Mountainous" at its core.
I read it as more ivory than abony, makes more sense when I don't read it wrong.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
1x Mafia Odd Night Goon (Only can kill odd nights)
1x Mafia Even Night Goon (Only can kill even nights)
7x Vanilla Town
1x Town Tracker
@Flay - I would say at 11 it should be good. Maybe I can see justification for 9/10 player because you can say that you are guaranteeing the most obvious town lives each night, but that feels like a stretch.
Yeah scum will never "miss" a kill because it doesn't work like Doctor, but it should strengthen Town a bit to not lose their leader(s). I don't think I'm going to have time to run it tonight though, and it looks like smaller games are already having trouble filling.
Alternatively the cutoff for Ivory-Bulletproof could be plurality>=Ebony. In other words if you 'lynch' with 4 votes out of 11, you could protect two people that Night if each got 4+ Ivory votes. Unsure how that changes things, maybe too much...
So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
In post 6886, LlamaFluff wrote:So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?
@thesupertriomusical on Instagram, come see it if you’re in LA area, I wrote it!
In post 6885, Mr. Flay wrote:Yeah scum will never "miss" a kill because it doesn't work like Doctor, but it should strengthen Town a bit to not lose their leader(s). I don't think I'm going to have time to run it tonight though, and it looks like smaller games are already having trouble filling.
Alternatively the cutoff for Ivory-Bulletproof could be plurality>=Ebony. In other words if you 'lynch' with 4 votes out of 11, you could protect two people that Night if each got 4+ Ivory votes. Unsure how that changes things, maybe too much...
Guh, forgot about endgame, where scum will reach 'unlynchable' status much quicker due to the Ivory votes. Since who is unkillable is publicly known, Town will still die every Night, so all we've done is strengthen scum in mountainous.
I really wish I could find the offsite Ebony/Ivory games Fiasco was talking about... I want to see what their actual setup was.
In post 6886, LlamaFluff wrote:So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?
OH
Another idea
Make the Hider a Hider Ninja.
@thesupertriomusical on Instagram, come see it if you’re in LA area, I wrote it!
In post 6886, LlamaFluff wrote:So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?
OH
Another idea
Make the Hider a Hider Ninja.
aka a normal hider
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
In post 6886, LlamaFluff wrote:So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?
The tracker's not the role that needs to be nerfed, it's the hider. The town performs better in tracker games because the vigs proved to be liabilities, not because the tracker is OPed.
Making the hider one-shot or turning it into a weak cop might balance it.
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
In post 6894, Bicephalous Bob wrote:hiders can be tracked by targetting their target, confirming the target as town
As long as it is that way. The problem is hard boiled allowed the tracker to actually track the hider without going through that method.
But even fixing this obvious error is how the roles would normally work isn't going to fix scum winning everytime the player chooses vig.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
In post 6886, LlamaFluff wrote:So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.
In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.
i agree. it's already been tweaked twice and was never really a good setup to begin with. trying to fine-tune it again for the sake of fine-tuning is a waste of time. most of the time the correct solution for a failing setup is scrapping the idea and starting again, rather than trying to shoehorn inelegant mechanics or roles into the design. it gets to a point where it no longer looks like the original game.