[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Kelly Chen]

I think it's a clever way to do roughly the same thing as bird C9.

[Adel]

I like it because it retards but does not prevent the chances of the Cop breadcrumbing or claiming early to draw protection.

[Simenon]

nominate Doctor Mafia

3 Mafia
6 Doctors
3 Quacks (if the quacks target a player, they kill them instead of protecting them. A player will not know if they are a quack or not, and their quackery is not revealed upon death).

[YogurtBandit]

Heres another couple of games I made up.

Risk Bomb Mafia

1 Vigilante
3 Mafia(Godfather)
1 Cop
1 Miller
5 Vanilla Townies
1 Bomb(Night target Explosion)

Day Bomb

1 Day Bomb(Whoever hammers on lynch is Killed)
3 Mafia(Godfather)
1 Cop
1 Miller
6 Vanilla Townies

[Thok]

What's the point of the miller in those games?

[Yosarian2]

It's still full of non-normal mechanics, Pooky. I think C9 does an okay job at balance, because 2-1-1-3 is wildly in favor of the town and 2-5 is wildly in favor of the scum, but you never know what you'll get. Percentages could be a little shifted, maybe, but most of the problem comes from self-destructing newbies, IMO.

I disagree; self-destructing newbies shouldn't make a difference, as scum newbies are just as likely to self destruct as town newbies in my opinion. When it comes down to it, the fundimental problem is that it's just really hard to figure out who the scum are in only 2-3 lynches

[Primate]

Townie 'A'
Townie 'A'
Townie 'A'
Townie 'B'
Townie 'B'
Townie 'B'
Townie 'C'
Townie 'C'
Townie 'D'

2 scum. Scum get a recruit night 0 instead of kill.

Still reckon it's a little swingy though. Maybe I'm just being overanxious.

[Guardian]

Primate, what's with the townie letters? Huhwhat?

[YogurtBandit]

What's the point of the miller in those games?

Eh, theres a cop. You could put it as a Regular instead.

[Thok]

What's the point of the miller in those games?

Eh, theres a cop. You could put it as a Regular instead.

I know there's a cop. I don't see what bonus there is to throwing a miller into the game just because there's a cop.

[Mr. Flay]

I've seen many many more town newbies melt down than scum newbies, but maybe that's because I've been scum more often. I like the fact that two 'bad' lynches (i.e. didn't go their way) decide the game for either side, in most cases.

Usually if you can get one scum, you can get both. If you can't ever get that first one though, it's tough.

[Simenon]

Nominate Toddler c9

a. 1 Mafia Blocker, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies
b. 1 Mafia, 6 Townies
c. 1 Mafia, 1 Mafia Blocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 3 Townies
d. 2 Mafia, 1 Cop, 4 Townies

[Kelly Chen]

What the heck is up with possibilities A and B.

*shakes fist at Fiasco*

[Yosarian2]

Usually if you can get one scum, you can get both. If you can't ever get that first one though, it's tough.

That's not really true either...if a scum gets lynched day 1 or day 2, he's very often been bussed by his partner, and it's very hard to figure out who based on just that lynch.

[YogurtBandit]

What's the point of the miller in those games?

Eh, theres a cop. You could put it as a Regular instead.

I know there's a cop. I don't see what bonus there is to throwing a miller into the game just because there's a cop.

Eh, as I said, it could be a regular townie instead.

[yellowbounder]

Mini Two Mesons and a Quark Mafia

2 Mafia
1 SK
1 Target
1 Antitarget
2 Townies
3 Vengeful Italians (if killed by mafia, then mafia dies as well, doesn't kill SK)

Both Mafia and SK can investigate instead of kill. The first time they target someone, they get Target or Not Target.
If they investigate a second time, they get either Target or Antitarget.
Or they can have a normal kill. They can't do both at night.

One of the townies knows who the Antitarget is.

If the Target is lynched, then the town lose, and who which ever scum team has more people wins, with ties going to the SK. If the Antitarget is lynched, then nothing happens.

If the Target is NKed, the team that kills wins. If the Antitarget is NKed, then the targetting team loses, and dies instantly. (The Antitarget is killed in the process.)

This is smaller, and less complicated. What do you guys think?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, miller in an open game is kind of wierd.

[yellowbounder]

Yeah, miller in an open game is kind of wierd.

Although it leaves interesting thoughts open for a counterclaiming miller. Both could be scum. Leaving it open for a countercounterclaim.

[Kelly Chen]

Why would a scum counterclaim miller in a game where there's known to be just one? That makes it very likely you'll get lynched that day or the next.

[Yosarian2]

Why would a scum counterclaim miller in a game where there's known to be just one? That makes it very likely you'll get lynched that day or the next.

It does make a guilty cop investigation less useful in lynch or lose situations, but otherwise, yeah, an open game where there is known to be exactally 1 miller sounds rather silly.

Now, if it was "0-2 millers, chosen randomally" that might be more interesting.

[Xdaamno]

Not too fond of the instant-win games like target or jester, but more the drawn-out strategic ones...

[Adel]

Now, if it was "0-2 millers, chosen randomally" that might be more interesting.

I think random roles detract from the beauty of the Open Game format. However designing a good open game is tough.

I know why the old C9 with one cop and one doc was broken.

Could someone explain to me why the current C9 with the random doc and cop is better than

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon
Cop
Doc
3 Townies

It prevents the broken Cop claim on day 1 for doc protection. Is it because boring predictable play results? Cop and fake-cop claim Day1. Roleblocker lynch: game over. Townie lynch: townie or Doc NK, no results from investigation day 2: lynch or loose. Coin flip: game over.

[Kelly Chen]

Incidentally, I don't think ideal scum play in the original newbie setup calls for scum claiming cop D1.

In general scum don't try to claim/counterclaim known-to-exist roles. At best the town lynches the real role and the next day the scum; at worst a scum is lynched with no benefit.

[yellowbounder]

CDB9

2 Mafia
1 Cop/Doctor/Roleblocker (equal chance)
1 [1 of Cop/Doctor/Roleblocker, random]/Townie (equal chance)
3 Townies

Nominate this one.

[Simenon]

Nominate Simenon c9

1 mafia recruiter who can recruit one player once at the beginning of the game.
1 cop
1 doctor
4 townies.