Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[Aimee]

Firstly, great diagram.

Secondly, you all rock. But this is gonna take me ages to respond to. Last time I looked it was about 4 pages. Yikes. Post tomorrow.

[Patrick]

It has come to my attention that ryan has been cheating in this game, outside of the thread. He knows how. After talking to several higher authorities, I've decided to modkill him, and end the day here. Sorry to cut off dicussion in full flow, but the rules exist for a reason.

ryan (Mafia) has been modkilled day 1.

It is now night 1. You have 72 hours to send in night choices. Unlike most games, this night will last the full 72 hours, unless the masons message me and say that they've finished talking.

[Patrick]

After their bad luck yesterday, with one of their members being struck by lightning and killed, the mafia is eager to start making a dent in the town. Tonight's victim was theopor_COD, who was followed to his home on the edge of the city, and silenced with a bullet to the back of the head at close range. The following morning, you all find him just outside his house, brains spattered all over the drive. You search his home thoroughly, wondering whether he was a member of that secret society that is rumoured to exist in the town. However, it seems theopor_COD was just a plain vanilla townie. You all bury his body and meet in the town square to hopefully lynch some more scum.

theopor_COD (Townie) shot night 1.

It is now day 2. With 9 alive, 5 votes will be enough to lynch.

[theopor_COD]

Inevitable. Good game. Go townies.

[Adel]

I feel used. I feel framed. I feel really dumb, and sorry.

Albert B. Rampage is going to beat me like a red-headed step child for this, and I think I deserve it.

One upside is that I wasn't mislynched yesterday: thanks for cheating ryan.
And it is good the scum missed.

[Ripley]

I hope as soon as possible to hear the views of Aimee, bird1111 and Lowell. I realise they have an awful lot of catching up to do as a result of the posting explosion that followed ABR's claim, but we know so little about them, compared to everyone else.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Rest in peace, theopor_COD.

I will allow Adel the chance to recoup and post an analysis when she is ready.

[Adel]

Pretty simple: I was really wrong about ryan. I find it hard to believe that ABR and ryan shared an alignment. I thought I had good reasons for doubting the mason claims, and when I was attacked for voicing that skepticism I figured the mafia (ABR and A Papaya) were trying to get me lynched for calling them out and undermining their fake claim.

I defended Lowell and ryan repeatedly, feeling righteous and confident in my understanding of who was scum. I had a some doubts there towards the end, I'm not sure how much I voiced them though. I thought the day would last quite a bit longer, since everyone was pretty much agreed on waiting for the absent players to post.

ryan really didn't tie himself to anyone than me, right? He had a couple posts defending Lowell and Lawerencelot, but mostly he buddied up with me. I would look really closely at me and those two to begin with.

I am still hella suspicious of lurkers. Unless both Lowell and Lawrencelot turn out to be scum (which I highly doubt) this game isn't going to change my opinion of lurking.

Looking forward to the outside analysis as well.

[A Papaya]

I agree with Ripley: I'd really like some content from the lurkers.

I defended Lowell and ryan repeatedly, feeling righteous and confident in my understanding of who was scum. I had a some doubts there towards the end, I'm not sure how much I voiced them though. I thought the day would last quite a bit longer, since everyone was pretty much agreed on waiting for the absent players to post.

ryan really didn't tie himself to anyone than me, right? He had a couple posts defending Lowell and Lawerencelot, but mostly he buddied up with me. I would look really closely at me and those two to begin with.

He buddied up to you too...didn't you just say that? It's weird how you did such a 360 from "ABR and Papaya are SOO SCUMMY" to "Let's do this town!"

However, I don't really feel that you're scum, since if you were, you might try to be a little less obvious about it sometimes.

Also, does anyone know HOW ryan was cheating?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I have a couple personal requests for the town, if you guys will oblige:

First, I will ask that everybody make a lengthly, detailed analysis and make a list of who they think

we should lynch today

; it can be a list of a few players that they wouldn't mind lynching.

Second, I would like everyone to hold their votes unless they are sure that the person they are voting for should be one of the "lynchs of the day". That means no quick voting and unvoting. This will help Adel make her diagrams clearer.

Third, if there is enough support, I would like to be elected the de facto leader of the town, or first among equals if you will. This is simply to ensure we can bully lurkers into posting in an

organized

manner, and collect information from specific individuals in a structured and efficient way. It will also serve to prove each person's level of trust for me, a measurement that my mason inner circle will gauge and take into consideration.

That is all for now. I eagerly anticipate all your thoughts and theories on the game before the day2 start, after which we can move forward to the back-and-forth bantering this game has become so accustomed to.

---

And for the last time, stop the one-liners post that clutter up the thread! Who CARES how ryan cheated!! Good riddance!

[Lawrencelot]

As everyone would expect, I admit I was really wrong on who was scum etc. Ryan being mafia makes the chance that ABR and Papaya are mafia less than 1%. They both acted very scummy the whole game, but I will believe them now. Luckily it took only a mafia kill for me to believe it, no mason is killed. So, I have less doubt that ABR and Papaya are mafia, but there is one important question left:

why isn't ABR or Papaya nightkilled if they are mason?

For the record, although I now believe ABR and Papaya, I still don't think Adel is that scummy. She acted very townie-ish to me, and although she was wrong, there were more people wrong (more than 3 I thought), so that doesn't necessarily mean she's scum. But, Adel, me and Lowell are most suspicious, but I don't think we should vote one of us right away, at least until the lurkers catched up.

@ABR 1: I don't think we should lynch anybody yet. Wait for the lurkers.
2: Alright.
3: No. I will not let you lead the town. No one should do that, and especially not you. Even though I believe you are mason now, you definately did not act pro-town the whole game, and you definately don't deserve to become the leader of the town. If I wasn't wrong all the time, I would laugh at this proposal, but I have no rights to do that now.

[Sir Tornado]

Albert

I would like Bird and Aimee to post a bit more. Personally, the timing of Ryan's elimination wasn't good for the town. Well, at least I don't think so, because I am for hearing from

each and every member

before the first lynch. Since that did not happen, I suggest our first order of business would be to hear Bird1111's and Aimee's take on the game as it has progressed till now. Also waiting for Lowell to come back tomorrow. I will reserve my judgement till then.

[Aimee]

I will have a bigger post by the end of today. I have read this once, yet not really analysed it fully. Response coming later.

[Aimee]

First of all, I would just like to say I am very disappointed with some of the things that occurred in day 1. When I first read day 1, I was absolutely appalled at the name calling, the rudeness, the "nastyness" and some things that people said about others, that I would say are border-line personal attacks. So, if the same things happen on day 2, I will be most displeased, and I hope all the players, and the mod, control the offensive language. Whilst I know that Mafia is a game of lies and deceit etc. it is also primarily a game. Those involved know who they are.

[Aimee]

I am going to do a post focussing exclusively on Adel. I think that is the best course of action. I will then do another post focussing on other players.

Adel's early game policy can be summed up entirely from this quote:

Lurking is an anti-town action.

In the same post, she refers to "lynching all lurkers", and from this point on, an intense lurker hunt was established, and followed, by Adel, Ryan and Lowell. Speaking of Lowell, an early connection was formed from Adel to Lowell. In the same post as the above quote, she comments:

Lowell: from your post I take it you agree with me- am I correct in this assumption? I think it will take a group of active players cooperating to pressure the lurkers, and that may mean following "lynch the lurkers" to succeed. I am not sure how far we can safely take it though.

I am immediately uneasy here. Not only is it clearly apparent she is seeking to form a connection with Lowell, she proposes a sort of bizarre alliance system. A group of active players pressurising the lurkers. Sounds far too structured and tactical, and merely like alliance play.

After then voting against Theo for lurking along with Lawrencelot, she immediately takes her vote off after he posts. Her post when she says this is interesting though:

unvote: theopor_COD that is what i would call a content-filled post. One lurker flushed. Next up: let's flush A Papaya. I'll place the second vote again.
vote:A Papaya for not posting. I'll move it once some real content is shown under your by-line.

BTW: I am totally going to qualify for that Wishy-Washy tell. I'm expecting to move my vote two or three more times over the next few pages, so long as there is a lurker left to be flushed or until I am totally convinced that someone is scum. More information is better for town, and I can't think of a better way to flush lurkers than being Wishy-Washy like this.

Two things here are established. Firstly, the lurker "flushing out" scheme is shown, when she immediately moves towards a new lurker, A Papaya. Also, she attempts to give an excuse for her vote hopping which may occur in the future. Excuses here are irrelevant - what is clear is that Adel is attempting to open herself up to allowing her vote to freely move between all lurkers.

A diagram is posted in post 93. Whilst I do love my pretty pictures, I do find them a bit pointless. It is like players doing vote counts (one of my pet hates). Players doing diagrams and vote counts just annoys me. It is just an attempt to look active, without actually doing much. In this case, the diagram wasn't useful, because it focused heavily on random voting and not on real votes, as it was too early for this. As a result, it has basically no use.

Lowell: we are on the same page. That is a great metric to track. Are you willing to track people's time since last post and list them in order here periodically, say every three or four days? It would save several of us from having to do the same work, and quality assurance would not be a problem. FoS: Sir Tornado

As well as moving onto another lurker, she focuses again on the link she seems to desire between herself and Lowell. Whilst Lowell doesn't seem to be saying anything Adel, Adel is almost leading Lowell - in the above quote she is seemingly coaching him and leading him into following her "lynch all lurkers" scheme. It seems again like an attempt to form links with active players so she can achieve her personal goals.

Adel's playstyle does seem very strategic. As Ripley argues:

The last time I saw a player like Adel, he was scum. The resemblances are uncanny: the bounding enthusiasm, the helpfulness, the taking charge, the quirky approach illustrated by posting charts and diagrams in thread. Maybe he (the other guy) always played that way, but I can say for sure that it's a most effective cover for scum.

I agree completely with the above quote, which emphasises completely the ways Adel is acting.

After Ripley's post, which was also against Lowell, Adel replied with this defence for Lowell:

I don't buy the anti-Lowell argument for a second. Everyone of his actions has been pro-town...

This is, of course, far-fetched to the extreme. Lowell's actions have hardly all be pro-town. Note on page 2, for example, when he seemingly wanted to hide and make all the masons do the work. So this is clearly a blind defence of Lowell. As Albert later argues:

I find Adel too quick to rise in support of Lowell with lack of evidence and little explanation for her rejected proposal.

Adel then replies to Ripley with:

Fos: Ripley for trying to derail the lurker hunting, again.

Again, she argues the importance of her lurker hunt, placing suspicion on those who actually look at other actions.

Isn't that slightly hypocritical? Adel wants the lurkers to post so she can get real content from them. But when Ripley utilises previous content from Adel, she plants a FoS on them for "derailing the lurker hunt". Isn't that actually derailing the

real

discussion, though, which is clearly more important? Suspicion should be able to flow naturally.

Ripley then makes an excellent point:

Adel, you are sounding somewhat obsessive about lurker hunting, and I'm also starting to question your following Lowell so blindly and uncritically. It's not something I've seen before, especially so early in a game.

I fundamentally believe that Adel's lurker hunt actually prohibited discussion during the early pages. It was attempting to bring lurkers into the light, and meant Adel wasn't actually focussing on the actions that had already happened. Raradoxically for Adel, who was arguing she was helping the town with her lurker hunt, in my opinion it was a detriment to the town and its discussion.

On page 6, Adel has a bit of crap logic:

The player who thinks like me and acts like me is likely to be playing the same alignment as me, therefore I will think Lowell is likely town until some real evidence comes to light.

Wrong. Absolutely ridiculous. The problem is she seemingly bases her argument around this. She seems to presume Lowell is innocent, with absolutely no reason for doing so.

Promoting a system that would facilitate a scum victory is indeed scummy...

Why are you doing it then? You understand that lynching lurkers

benefits the town in no way whatsoever

. Only scum benefit from lynching lurkers. Therefore by attempting to lynch the lurkers, you are acting scummy, something you freely admit is scummy. Therefore, you admit you are scummy. Argument is therefore flawed.

Also, at this point, Ryan seemingly latched himself onto Adel. Oh no for Adel. Especially since now Ryan has been proved to be scum. Although initially Adel ignores Ryan's linking, just like Lowell ignored hers. This, to me, suggests that she is scum trying to link with town (Lowell), and Ryan is an idiot scum trying to link with his partner.

After this, Adel seemingly "calls" the scum as A Papaya and Albert. Oh dear. How this occurred I don't know. But it fits with her whole "Lynch all Lurkers or die" approach.

Not much occurs until page 10, where Adel and others' forceful play pushed a mason out of the closet (although not in that way). She then refers to Ryan as "part of the posse", which indeed shows that links do exist.

Adel then makes a fatal blow.

...if nothing convincing and serious comes up my vote goes back to A Papaya. I'm mostly convinced that he is scum; if he is town or mason he isn't much good to us as town or mason.

Horrible idea. So you want to lynch a claimed mason on day 1? That is a horrible horrible idea. If I had been there I would have pounced on you for that. And saying he is useless doesn't help - if he is a mason, he is a mason, and they are incredibly useful to have. Lynching a mason would be horrible.

I've got to page 11, but I am missing things and stuff, so I am giving up now. I will be back for more later. But it is clear, Albert and everyone, that Adel is who I suspect today.

[Lowell]

Okay sorry I've been gone. Was away from the office. Back now.

I read through the posts. Here's the verdict.

YOU'RE ALL INSANE IF YOU DON'T SEE THAT ADEL AND LAWRENCE ARE THE LAST TWO SCUM!!!

Adel

. She's the most obvious. First, her quest to find "the real masons" (post 324), an OJ-esque faux quest for justice, is laughable. Adel, are we supposed to believe that not one, but TWO, scum falsely claimed mason, and yet NO masons counterclaimed???? That makes no sense. I'd trade all THREE masons for a chance to expose two scum. That you pretend to think timid masons might be hiding is laughable. Posts 267, 258, 273 are all awfully bad and suspicious as well. Hell, everything is at this point.

As I was reading the thread that I missed (6 pages in 24 hours???) there was a time when some folks had the trio of ryan, adel, and myself. What was odd about that was that Adel (in particular) seemed to relish the pairing, making no effort to distance from me. She's been buddying up like hell, and it's obvious.

ryan

. $10 says I know why he got modkilled. He's almost as obvious. His odd refusal to believe an UNCOUNTERCLAIMED mason pair is bewildering. Almost too dumb to be scum. Ripley nailed it with his post 277. The "suspicion" is fabricated.

Lawrence

. The most bewildering of the scum players. By the time papaya and albert claimed, ryan and adel were in a tough spot, whereas Lawrence was not. That Lawrence came out of nowhere to openly support them... even calling them MASONS though both deny, blows my mind for its dumbness. The only thing I can think of is that he/they really thought they might be able to get the votes to sway the balance. As in, be able to convince 3/5 non-mason players. I think Lawrence might have seen Adel's buddying up to me as indication that I might take her side. That's just a huge misread as far as I'm concerned.


Now, on to the star of the game.

ALBERT

. Congrats for busting the game wide open!! I disappear for 4 days and you expose ALL THREE scum players. Well played.

For the record, his counterclaim plan is exactly on the money. Until/unless TWO other players come out confirming each other as masons and papaya/albert as non-masons, the claim stands. And since it hasn't happened, THE CLAIM STILL STANDS.

It is absolutely, completely, totally, bewilderingly idiotic to suspect either of these two of being anything other than masons. "Real" masons would not be in hiding! "Real" masons would proudly jump up and say "AHA! We got them! Here's TWO SCUM!!!" I know that masons are powerful, relative to townies, but come on! A mason for scum sacrifice is one any sane player would make any day of the week.

Two other notes:
1) My brief post the other day was wrong, Albert. I hadn't read the thread. You're right that the scum could have figured out who you were.
2) The plan of setting up Albert and papaya as fakes clearly continues, what with keeping them both alive. No matter, no one is fooled.

GAME OVER! Congrats Albert on a brilliantly played game. Great job by Ripley and Theo as well. Sorry I missed all the fun!

[Aimee]

I agree 100% with Lowell. I am so mad I wasn't there when all this happened.

[Lowell]

oh,

vote adel

obviously. Got so revved up I forgot to do that.

[Lawrencelot]

Well, Lowell sure had a change of mind. It is easy to say all those things at this point. After the ABR claim you weren't like this. Now it's almost out of the question that ABR and Papaya are scum, but back then... I hope you can see why me and Adel didn't believe it. And how come you now congratulate ABR for playing well, while it appeared to me that you found his actions terrible after he claimed? (like the fake dealine etc)

I admit I took Adel's side. But now I'm on the side of the others, like ripley and such. If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie. I still think Adel acted very townie-like during the game, although Aimee's post almost persuaded me. In another game, I was also focusing solely on voting lurkers, but although I was scum in that game, I wasn't doing that because I was scum. I won't vote Adel yet, she has a right to defend herself (and I hope you give me that right when I will get lynched. But my important question remains unanswered:

Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

[Aimee]

Easy. A Papaya and ABR aren't killed because otherwise they would be 100% confirmed. It is a way for the mafia to perhaps question what they are doing. Otherwise that would fully confirm them, although they are pretty much confirmed anyway.

Plus, I vaguely remember Adel identifying Theo as the still unnamed mason buddy. Clearly they are attempting to oust the third unknown mason.

[Lowell]

Haha this is hilarious. Look at Lawrence's and Adel's posts today. It's clear what the plan is.

"I defended Lowell and ryan repeatedly." -Adel, said with sincere regret

"[ryan] had a couple posts defending Lowell and Lawrencelot." -Adel, poingiantly

"Adel, me, and Lowell are the most suspicious." -Lawrence, factually

"Lowell sure had a change of mind." -Lawrence, aghast


1) Lawrence, nice try grouping me with you two. "Change of mind"? Really? Show me where I doubted anyone's claim and I'll give you a cookie. In fact, the one hasty post I DID make after the claim was to chide albert for REVEALING himself. No one is confused by the "uh, oh, 3 suspicious people but only 2 scum left!" tactic.

2) Here, I'll answer your "important question": ABR and Papaya aren't dead because, by killing them, you're exposing them as masons, whereas now you can try the pathetic "still not sure about them" angle.

Hey, I love the shotgun approach to confusing the town here (throw a bunch of theories, hope one hits), but it just isn't working. Wow this win was easy. I mean, just wow.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I am relieved by the clairvoyance of Lowell and Aimee, but please, let's hear from Bird before discussion hits full speed, aye ?

[Aimee]

His sig says he could be away until the 16th with potentially no access...

[Albert B. Rampage]

I saw him online yesterday, but I take it your all hungry to lynch the scum and think it wouldn't make a difference with him away

[Ripley]

ryan. $10 says I know why he got modkilled.

Maybe this is obvious to everyone but me - I haven't got a clue. Is it something we're allowed to speculate about in the thread? Lowell, if your suspicion is correct, could our knowing about it help us find ryan's scumbuddies in any way?