Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Shinobi]

Looking back, I'm not sure if I want to vote Josh or not. I really don't know where I stand on his lack of concern for the NPAU wagon. He tried to start another wagon on Hephaestus beforehand, but I don't really get the feeling that he was actually pushing all that hard. Idk.

I can't remember a single thing Peabody has said all game. As soon as I get back from the gym I'm going to look into him.

[goodmorning]

I literally hate everything. It's genuinely important and you all just go "oh, it's a hypothetical, it doesn't matter"

IT FUCKING MATTERS, OK

Let me answer it, since you don't seem to want to:
npiau was going to be lynched. It was close to deadline, and he was the wagon that was up enough to get there.
As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

So, if either of them is Scum, why admit to not finding npiau scummy at the last moment?

[Josh_B]

Ok, so Uticron is actually town, That's good to know. I probably should have read him as town when he was arguing with shinobi, but i felt like most of that argument was over playstyle and game theory.

[davesaz]

As Town, you don't fight the wagon because

a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all,

plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

This is exactly the same point I made when questioned by BBT. Emphasis added.

Sorry, I was sleeping or would have repeated myself before you answered your own question.

[davesaz]

Ok, so Uticron is actually town, That's good to know. I probably should have read him as town when he was arguing with shinobi, but i felt like most of that argument was over playstyle and game theory.

Can you point to what makes you think uctritron is town?

[Josh_B]

@ Josh: In post 1038 you said that the NPAU wagon set off alarms and that 701 actually seemed townish, but looking back at 758 you said that on play alone, NPAU still appeared scummy. Was your townish read on 701 made later? If not, why not say it at the time?

I don't know. I think I may be trying to justify a reason for him being town now that I've seen his flip, or once I realized how many people were scum reading him, I tried to open my mind to the possibility that he was town which caused me to read his posts from a new perspective.

[davesaz]

Why did you stay on the wagon?
Why didn't you try to stop the wagon?
Why didn't you try to push somebody else's wagon?

With 10 hours left in the day? When I thought the most likely alternative (GM) would probably be worse? Also see my recent response to GM's question / self answer. Find the same thing in my ISO earlier. See me getting all concerned about a no lynch, and actually pushing people

like you

to vote NPAU (and then unvote, I might add).

Spoiler:

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

I guess I just didn't expect it to take that long, especially when you named 4 or 5 people that you have played with before that you said you would be able to gain reads on quickly.

It doesn't matter now anyway.

VOTE: NPAU

What is the town motivation behind 'Watching the thread and clock' on a wagon you don't feel sure of?

If a wagon I agreed with had formed, and it looked like it would go through, I would have switched to it. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
The NPAU wagon was the best (ONLY) hope of a lynch, which is

better for town

than a no-lynch.

[Josh_B]

SHINOBI AND BBT- look at you two working together to push the same case on two different people. I'm having flash backs from a recent game.... BBT even the part where you asked the same question 50 billion times even though it was already answered. Have you been Metagaming recently?

If you want to do something productive with your posts, why aren't you looking at the people that voted for NPAU all willy nilly. for no reason, or reasons that didn't make sense?

Oh, I know, why don't you look at the people that were splitting the votes? Do you both really need to see GM's lynch to show that the top two wagons at dead line where shit wagons?

[Josh_B]

Widsom- I don't trust you yet. Why a peabody wagon?

[Peabody]

Holy carp on a fishline. Five more pages.

This is a prod dodge just because I can't post today. It's my bday and I'm celebrating.

I promise I'll answer your questions, Wisdom. (Only read 45 and skimmed 46-50 atm).

[Peabody]

Posting on Sunday. Expect it. CHARGEE!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town

. As scum, you don't want to come across like you're on a bad lynch, so you pretend to second-guess yourself to gain credibility that you really feel the wagon you're on is wrong but you have no option but to stay on it.

As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

As town, if you think the wagon really is bad, you try to steer town elsewhere onto somebody who you're scum-reading. You trust in your own reads more than anybody else's because you

know

you're town and you cannot be certain of anybody else.

My thoughts ^^

Why did you stay on the wagon?
Why didn't you try to stop the wagon?
Why didn't you try to push somebody else's wagon?

With 10 hours left in the day? When I thought the most likely alternative (GM) would probably be worse? Also see my recent response to GM's question / self answer. Find the same thing in my ISO earlier. See me getting all concerned about a no lynch, and actually pushing people

like you

to vote NPAU (and then unvote, I might add).

Spoiler:

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

I guess I just didn't expect it to take that long, especially when you named 4 or 5 people that you have played with before that you said you would be able to gain reads on quickly.

It doesn't matter now anyway.

VOTE: NPAU

What is the town motivation behind 'Watching the thread and clock' on a wagon you don't feel sure of?

If a wagon I agreed with had formed, and it looked like it would go through, I would have switched to it. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
The NPAU wagon was the best (ONLY) hope of a lynch, which is

better for town

than a no-lynch.

My oh my, plenty of lies, damn lies and more lies.

When you unvoted NPAU, you had just over 2 days, looks like it was around 52 hours or so. Now, 2 days is plenty of time to try and steer a wagon onto somebody you're scum-reading. Instead, you just hopped back on with around 22 hours to go (again, not 10). Still plenty of time to at least

try

and get your point across on who you thought was scum and why.

I can't believe you're trying to give yourself credit for my voting of NPAU when you had absolutely no part in that vote at all. Show me how you got me to vote NPAU. This is something scum do, try to give themselves credit for something that they didn't actually do.

Now, why would you wait for a wagon to be formed? Why would you not try to form a wagon yourself? That is what town do, they don't wait for somebody else to do something that they can sheep. They pro-actively try to find scum, no matter what. The fact you even imply you were waiting for another wagon to be formed indicates to me that you think there was enough time for this to be done. Which contradicts your earlier point made about not having the time to push a wagon on someone you were scum-reading yourself. If you didn't have the time to push a wagon (2days) what makes you think somebody else could create a wagon when you were 'watching the thread' with approx 6-8 hours of the day left?

If you want to do something productive with your posts, why aren't you looking at the people that voted for NPAU all willy nilly. for no reason, or reasons that didn't make sense?

Have a look through Dave's ISO. See if you can find his reasoning for voting NPAU because I don't see it anywhere.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why did you not follow up on the NPAU wagon you disliked so much at start of D2?

Nice dodge!!

[Shinobi]

I literally hate everything. It's genuinely important and you all just go "oh, it's a hypothetical, it doesn't matter"

IT FUCKING MATTERS, OK

Let me answer it, since you don't seem to want to:
npiau was going to be lynched. It was close to deadline, and he was the wagon that was up enough to get there.
As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

So, if either of them is Scum, why admit to not finding npiau scummy at the last moment?

It's not a hypothetical. Josh came up with another wagon 24 hours before deadline which had no chance of convincing anyone. Where's any kind of motivation for it? All you're pointing to is the fact that voting on the NPAU wagon makes sense if you're town

or

scum. If neither of those answers are satisfactory in terms of finding out why he did what he did, then why are you listing two completely different scenarios which don't explain his actions at all?

[Shinobi]

SHINOBI AND BBT- look at you two working together to push the same case on two different people. I'm having flash backs from a recent game.... BBT even the part where you asked the same question 50 billion times even though it was already answered. Have you been Metagaming recently?

If you want to do something productive with your posts, why aren't you looking at the people that voted for NPAU all willy nilly. for no reason, or reasons that didn't make sense?

Oh, I know, why don't you look at the people that were splitting the votes? Do you both really need to see GM's lynch to show that the top two wagons at dead line where shit wagons?

You yourself said that these two cases are completely different. Don't tell me they're the same because you know that they aren't.

Widsom- I don't trust you yet. Why a peabody wagon?

I thought Metal Sonic claimed scum.

[Shinobi]

I'm going to put off talking to/about Peabody for a while. Probably until he can post again.

[davesaz]

Time stamp of

watch the clock post

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:15 am
time stamp of deadline expired on 2014-10-04 20:45:00

Can you do math?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@

Everyone

- Look what Dave chooses to reply to. Of all the things I said, he picks up on he fact that I said 6-8 hours

APPROX

and he points out it was 10.

Like, he deems that the most important part of my post to respond to.

[davesaz]

Starting a new wagon with 10 hours left is pissing in the wind. At that point, we needed to not have a no-lynch.

The time before that? Trying to figure out the connections, duh. I did not find anything, and returned to the only wagon which would work.
Scum would never leave the wagon to begin with.

I repeat, are you really this dense? You're scum and I'm voting you. You're wiggling exactly the same way you wiggled when Thor voted you at the top of D3 in our newbie.
I, on the other hand, am calmly refuting every thing you try to throw.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Starting a new wagon with 10 hours left is pissing in the wind. At that point, we needed to not have a no-lynch.

The time before that? Trying to figure out the connections, duh. I did not find anything, and returned to the only wagon which would work.
Scum would never leave the wagon to begin with.

I repeat, are you really this dense? You're scum and I'm voting you. You're wiggling exactly the same way you wiggled when Thor voted you at the top of D3 in our newbie.
I, on the other hand, am calmly refuting every thing you try to throw.

You're super selective with what you respond to and it makes interacting with you difficult.

You had 2 days when you unvoted.

2 days

. Not 10 hours.

When you said you were watching the thread you implied this was in case somebody started a wagon you deemed suitable to join. I'm asking you why you thought somebody else could create a wagon in 10 hours but you claimed that you didn't have enough time yourself to create your own wagon?

Do you see this contradiction?

[davesaz]

So the new post 891 invalidates all the points I made in my latest. Don't know why its coming so late, but I really do like the content -- which makes sense though I may disagree with some of the conclusions. It's obviously not a response to the one I was in the middle of writing, and it's a lot more comprehensive than you'd expect from the other Mala post on this page.

Next question -- BBT, I know that Mala could have posted this specifically in response to your read and engineered it to address your point, but what if it's genuine?

Sigh.

It feels genuine. I still don't like it took her near 2 weeks to present it, but w/e.

UNVOTE:

I guess I just didn't expect it to take that long, especially when you named 4 or 5 people that you have played with before that you said you would be able to gain reads on quickly.

It doesn't matter now anyway.

VOTE: NPAU

Look at this sequence of posts. Observe the post numbers.

How can you say that I did not influence you getting on the NPAU wagon? A misrep and a lie is how. You misrepped what I was doing, and lied about not being influenced by me.

What gave me pause on NPAU?

Your easy willingness to switch to the wagon

, that's what. I expected there to be fight. I read that willingness as scum, and when you changed to GM it just reinforced scum.

I gave a naked read that scum could be found in {BBT, Mala, Josh}. The point of that read was actually to find out which of them went ballistic and which brushed it off. Ever heard of a reaction test?

BBT wins the grand prize by going ballistic. Can I get some support please?

[davesaz]

Why didn't I push you? Because without your current behavior the vote switch wasn't enough. It was enough to make me look harder at completely unrelated activity. That look took some time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

896 might have been in reply to you but it's not

because

of you that my vote changed.

In 896, I said '

it

feels genuine.' 'It' was in reference to Mala's 891. Mala's 891 is what made me re-evaluate my read on her and consequently join the NPAU wagon.

You will also notice that my 898 is in direct response to Mala. Again, not related to anything you have done.

So, tell me again. How do you get credit for me joining the NPAU wagon?

Wait what? So you didn't pause on NPAU because you thought he might be Mason? You've now changed that to you paused on NPAU because of my willingness to join his wagon???

Which is it?

You're also acting like I had no previous scum-read on NPAU and joined his wagon with no reasoning. This is a gross misrepresentation on your part.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just in case you missed them.

Why did you not follow up on the NPAU wagon you disliked so much at start of D2?

Nice dodge!!

When you said you were watching the thread you implied this was in case somebody started a wagon you deemed suitable to join. I'm asking you why you thought somebody else could create a wagon in 10 hours but you claimed that you didn't have enough time yourself to create your own wagon?

Do you see this contradiction?

[goodmorning]

As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town

. As scum, you don't want to come across like you're on a bad lynch, so you pretend to second-guess yourself to gain credibility that you really feel the wagon you're on is wrong but you have no option but to stay on it.

As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

As town, if you think the wagon really is bad, you try to steer town elsewhere onto somebody who you're scum-reading. You trust in your own reads more than anybody else's because you

know

you're town and you cannot be certain of anybody else.

My thoughts ^^

If someone being Town made them right then everyone would have a 100% Town winrate. Trusting your own reads is important, but treating them as infallible is downright dangerous.
If there isn't time to move wagons (which I'd say there wasn't) then trying to do so is unhelpful. dave did have no option but to stay on it, whether or not he genuinely felt it was bad. Why are you so convinced that he would only have done so as Scum?

I literally hate everything. It's genuinely important and you all just go "oh, it's a hypothetical, it doesn't matter"

IT FUCKING MATTERS, OK

Let me answer it, since you don't seem to want to:
npiau was going to be lynched. It was close to deadline, and he was the wagon that was up enough to get there.
As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

So, if either of them is Scum, why admit to not finding npiau scummy at the last moment?

It's not a hypothetical. Josh came up with another wagon 24 hours before deadline which had no chance of convincing anyone. Where's any kind of motivation for it? All you're pointing to is the fact that voting on the NPAU wagon makes sense if you're town

or

scum. If neither of those answers are satisfactory in terms of finding out why he did what he did, then why are you listing two completely different scenarios which don't explain his actions at all?

OK, first of all, Sonic was MY wagon, not Josh's.
Second: my point is that one can eliminate the Scum motivation

when we answer the question in the last line of my post

. What do we have left? Town.

I gave a naked read that scum could be found in {BBT, Mala, Josh}. The point of that read was actually to find out which of them went ballistic and which brushed it off. Ever heard of a reaction test?

BBT wins the grand prize by going ballistic. Can I get some support please?

Nope. I think if it were actually a reaction test you'd have opened the day with it.