Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[theopor_COD]

Adel - for all Papaya's faults so far this game, without a counter-claim of any kind, he's telling the truth - as such I don't see what we will gain from lynching him.

[Adel]

theopor: I feel like you are quoting me unfairly without context. I did not say "lynch papaya".

Offering this alternative is much better if the scum are fake-claiming then what was about to happen before their fake-claim, which would've been a Papaya-lynch followed by a ABR-lynch without flushing the masons from cover.

That is why I suggest that the masons wait until tomorrow to claim. No mason exposure today, less risk in the long term. In the event that our claimed masons are for real, they should be able to build a real case against a real scum, and not be promoting the blind lynching of a person of unknown alignment.

So for me the question will be, is another player revealed to be more scummy than Papaya. Which will take time. If we can't reach a consensus that either another player is more scummy than Papaya, or that no other player is more scummy than Papaya, then I would agree that the mass reveal is in the best interest of the town.

If seven players can agree to lynch Papaya, or can agree to lynch another player, I feel confident that that lynch will hang true.

Did you even pause to consider the implications of what I was saying? It is clever, protown, and may work.

[Adel]

Adel - for all Papaya's faults so far this game, without a counter-claim of any kind, he's telling the truth - as such I don't see what we will gain from lynching him.

Doing what scum would do in his position does not = truth in claim. I do not know that masons exposing themselves would be the best course of action right now, I don't even know that ABR and Papaya are lying about being masons. All I know is my alignment, and I am trying to contribute a good course of action for town that doesn't involve outing our masons if ABR and Papaya are scum and will still work if they are telling the truth.

[Albert B. Rampage]

383: Because its not a good play. That's why I don't expect mafia to counter-claim.

392: I've addressed the issue of why I think you are a good lynch.

399: It is improbable. I will definitely nominate such a player for a best mafia if that happens.

406: I've addressed the issue of why I think you are a good lynch.

For your suggested course of action, if it implicates what I think the mass reveal means it to implicate, I agree with it of course, as it is the same thing that I've suggested, only with more clauses.

[theopor_COD]

It's irrelevant I believe the claims. I believe Papaya and Albert to be town - if they're lieing scumbags which I would find very unlikely then the real masons should claim today and we follow Ripley's plan. All you seem to be proposing is a wagon/mislynch on a random player - I want you lynched or Ryan no-one else aslong as today lasts, save someone claiming scum that won't change.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's irrelevant I believe the claims. I believe Papaya and Albert to be town - if they're lieing scumbags which I would find very unlikely then the real masons should claim today and we follow Ripley's plan. All you seem to be proposing is a wagon/mislynch on a random player - I want you lynched or Ryan no-one else aslong as today lasts, save someone claiming scum that won't change.

She wants the non-existent masons to claim tommorow if both me and papaya are alive. That changes nothing. We still lynch someone of her group today, the only change is that we will wait for Bird and Aimee to return (if I understood her correctly).

[Adel]

From the beginning, since the first claim by Papaya, I have promoted doing more work, more analysis, and taking more time. Where is my vote right now?
...
How many times have I called for a wagon?
...
I have the feeling that you will not be satisfied until I hang, but how could you be so sure of yourself if you didn't absolutely

know

that I don't share your alignment?

Why didn't you ever reply to my "suggested course of action if you are a mason" in post 376. I put real work into that, and it hurts that you ignore that. I'm trying to cooperate.

Could you extend me a little more respect than is showen by glib responses like those?

here is the text of 376 to save you from looking back through the pages:

By not lynching me for a start:)

Thanks for giving me an opening to be useful, if you are a mason. It is frustrating being on the outside when I want to help.

What should you do if you are a mason? Get posts out of our vacationing players but silence Papaya (your earlier post should do a good job of that) everytime he posts I think he is scum.
Consider the possibility that an innocent player would have good reasons for being skeptical of your claims. Consider that scum would jump on the chance to target an innocent that you are voting for. Look at ryan, since his posts in response to your claim were similar to mine I can understand where he is coming from if he is innocent, but I cannot vouch for him for obvious reasons. Did Lowell announce that he was going on vacation before he left? His timing seems a little fishy to me, but if he posted elsewhere it is probably on the up and up. I trust Lawrencalot more than my former lurker-posse more right now.
Yes I am new here, but the current meta seems slightly broken in favor of Mafia to me. All they have to do is post enough to not get replaced, and let the active townies pressure each other enough to out the masons. Then, if an outed mason is not killed night 1, and was on the wagon for a mislynch, accusations of "fake claim" tend to stick, resulting in a mislynch of a mason on day 2. That leaves town in day 3 nearly in a lynch or loose position. That is why I still believe in the "lynch the lurker" meta tactic. i am really sorry about outing Papaya if he is a mason, there is no way I could've expected a mason to play that poorly. I don't expect to identify a scum just though following "lynch the lurker" either, but when you force all players to produce theories, original opinions, votes and FoSs the result is enough information to be confident in a lynch. My best case scenario would look just like the Papaya situation did before he claimed- a player that finally begins to post but his posts seems very scummy. I don't know what should happen when we out a player with an opposing claim to your mason-claim in that event.
I suspect the present lurkers more than my former lurker-posse right now. I distrust Sir Tornado and Ripley less than theopore_OCD more less than the lurkers, about the same as my former posse. The lurkers I want to pressure, not because I have any specific reason to suspect them, but because they are big holes where information does not exist. Until that information is there, it does us no good to just continue on with a lynch, unless something as convincing as what we had against Papaya comes up.

I don't see how you can be so relentless if you don't know my alignment. I don't understand it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

There is no reason for a townie to be skeptical unless that townie

really emotionally

want

Albert to be scum at this point.

Look, nothing personal. You are either acting anti-town unknowingly, or you are the manipulative scum I think you are. But the fact is if left alive with 2 masons, 2 towns and 3 mafia, you are likely to side with mafia. Letting you live is an unacceptable risk either way.

[theopor_COD]

Plus there was that quote in regards to Ryan. "Actively looking to clear him".

[Adel]

What have I done that is so anti-town? My major sins seems to be pressuring the scummiest player into making a mason claim that may be false, not immediately agreeing with suspected scum that players which flushed the suspected scum must be scum, then not changing my mind about the possibility of the suspected scum being scum. Is there anything I am missing?

[Albert B. Rampage]

What have I done that is so anti-town? My major sins seems to be pressuring the scummiest player into making a mason claim that may be false, not immediately agreeing with suspected scum that players which flushed the suspected scum must be scum, then not changing my mind about the possibility of the suspected scum being scum. Is there anything I am missing?

In a Ly-Lo situation with you alive, you would make the wrong choice and get us all killed. Your mind seems set - that's if your town.

If your scum, then we will get you.

[Adel]

Plus there was that quote in regards to Ryan. "Actively looking to clear him".

Again, you are quoting me out of context.

I hate admitting that I'm wrong; I'm old; I am actively looking for ways to clear ryan. Those are facts. So is that there is a real chance that ryan is town, and other candidates we haven't looked at are scum.

Then when asked to clarify:

"I'm actively looking to clear Ryan" was supposed to me being open and honest about my bias and motivations. I thought playing as town meant I didn't have to hide that stuff. No, I am not going to vote ryan or Lowell or anyone else, because I do not see any compelling evidence. There isn't a deadline, and three players are on vacation.

and then when asked again

I didn't want to think of ryan as scum- that would make me a fool. I gave my best argument for why he isn't scum, and I was intellectually honest enough to state my intent so others would have a fair understanding of my selection bias. Should compute.

and finally

Depending on how this turns out, I may very well adopt you tactic of never defending another in this game. In RL I am all about building consensus to solve difficult problems with conflicting personality types, and that is the skill set I bring to the game. My instinct is to defend someone that I work well with, and to pay it forward whenever possible. That means taking risks with some people some of the time, but on average it really does average out in my and the team's favor. I am a leader and a team-builder. ryan was acting in the way a good team member should- applying pressure to generate posts for the good of the town. He earned the benefit of the doubt in my eyes though his pro-town actions, so I took a risk in defending him. I see nothing wrong in my actions. If this game is so totally backwards that the scummiest players are the masons, and the most pro-town players are scum... I'll begin to doubt my capacity of being a good mafia player.

Did you miss the above quotes? Why is it that out of my

five

pages of posts, this is the best that you have?

[Adel]

Look, nothing personal. You are either acting anti-town unknowingly, or you are the manipulative scum I think you are. But the fact is if left alive with 2 masons, 2 towns and 3 mafia, you are likely to side with mafia. Letting you live is an unacceptable risk either way.

Look, I think it is personal. The snide comments you posted in another thread where I was looking for insight on how to deal with in-game harassment, haven't gone unnoticed.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Look, nothing personal. You are either acting anti-town unknowingly, or you are the manipulative scum I think you are. But the fact is if left alive with 2 masons, 2 towns and 3 mafia, you are likely to side with mafia. Letting you live is an unacceptable risk either way.

Look, I think it is personal. The snide comments you posted in another thread where I was looking for insight on how to deal with in-game harassment, haven't gone unnoticed.

Ok let's talk about this once and for all.

I think Albert B. Rampage needs to reread the last line of mine he quoted. What was I trying to say with that? Does it support your conclusion?

Isn't reading comprehension a prerequisite for good play?

Your case is so weak

son

, I have to guess at other motives.

Who provoked who ? And that's not to mention the big flaming post you made.

Maybe I should have said "Don't call me son" or "Don't attack me". But I didn't. Deal with it.

Fact of the matter is you will keep trying to attack the innocent, and I am in no position to dissuade you, so we collide.

[theopor_COD]

Plus there was that quote in regards to Ryan. "Actively looking to clear him".

Again, you are quoting me out of context.

I hate admitting that I'm wrong; I'm old; I am actively looking for ways to clear ryan. Those are facts. So is that there is a real chance that ryan is town, and other candidates we haven't looked at are scum.

Then when asked to clarify:

"I'm actively looking to clear Ryan" was supposed to me being open and honest about my bias and motivations. I thought playing as town meant I didn't have to hide that stuff. No, I am not going to vote ryan or Lowell or anyone else, because I do not see any compelling evidence. There isn't a deadline, and three players are on vacation.

and then when asked again

I didn't want to think of ryan as scum- that would make me a fool. I gave my best argument for why he isn't scum, and I was intellectually honest enough to state my intent so others would have a fair understanding of my selection bias. Should compute.

and finally

Depending on how this turns out, I may very well adopt you tactic of never defending another in this game. In RL I am all about building consensus to solve difficult problems with conflicting personality types, and that is the skill set I bring to the game. My instinct is to defend someone that I work well with, and to pay it forward whenever possible. That means taking risks with some people some of the time, but on average it really does average out in my and the team's favor. I am a leader and a team-builder. ryan was acting in the way a good team member should- applying pressure to generate posts for the good of the town. He earned the benefit of the doubt in my eyes though his pro-town actions, so I took a risk in defending him. I see nothing wrong in my actions. If this game is so totally backwards that the scummiest players are the masons, and the most pro-town players are scum... I'll begin to doubt my capacity of being a good mafia player.

Did you miss the above quotes? Why is it that out of my

five

pages of posts, this is the best that you have?

I've answered all the above before.

It's not the best I have, I examined all your posts back some 6 pages - the fact that your are actively looking to clear Ryan is bollocks, you shouldn't be . . . you should be actively hunting scum. All I've seen you do all game is propose the lurker hunt with Lowell - you voted me to get me to post, I did you went onto Papaya - yes his reaction was scummy, so you stuck hard and fast to him. Papaya's claimed mason and basically you don't believe it. You then find anyone who is against the lurker hunt, scummy - it's not the only way to catch scum, it gives them opportunity to blend in.

Your stubborn I'll give you that and if I go through your posts I'll pull up a whole load more of stuff to call you out on. Now your more or less pleading with us to lynch Papaya - you don't believe the claims what-not, you don't like Albert and would rather he'd be scum. Fact is I think the scum one here is you - even after the claims you went back to attempt the lurker hunt, you need to be lynched.

[ryan]

theopor_COD: I think a problem we have right now is we have 4 active posters with 4 of the same thoughts, finding scum, but right now instead of waiting for some actual content from others there are a few that seem a lynch is necessary right now. I think some other opinions are needed before a choice is made

[Albert B. Rampage]

theopor_COD: I think a problem we have right now is we have 4 active posters with 4 of the same thoughts, finding scum, but right now instead of waiting for some actual content from others there are a few that seem a lynch is necessary right now. I think some other opinions are needed before a choice is made

Aimee will be back on monday, and Bird on tuesday. I'm all for waiting for them. Hopefully they don't die of a heart-attack when they see the number of pages

[Adel]

ok theopor_COD, I'm sold. You are the third mafia member with A Papaya and ABR. You continue to quote me without context in the most negative possible light, refuse to engage the valid points I raise, and refuse to examine other possible candidates. The only was you could have this much confidence is if you absolutely

knew

I didn't share a faction with you. Only Mafia know with 100% confidence that other players belong to a different faction.

A Papaya, ABR and theopor_COD are the scum. Good luck convincing the others to mislynch me today.

[ryan]

Where are we at vote count wise?

[theopor_COD]

A Papaya, ABR and theopor_COD are the scum. Good luck convincing the others to mislynch me today.

I do hope your scum buddies decide to bus you, otherwise it's game over.
Have you seen that counter-claim yet . . .

I must remember next time I play to actively go on a lurker hunt ignore all other scum tells, actively look to defend someone who looks scummy and want to lynch 2 masons who as yet have no counter-claim.

Seperately I do like playing with you Adel, your a decent player and put a great deal of effort into the game but sometimes being scum is tough, eh.

[Albert B. Rampage]

ok theopor_COD, I'm sold. You are the third mafia member with A Papaya and ABR. You continue to quote me without context in the most negative possible light, refuse to engage the valid points I raise, and refuse to examine other possible candidates. The only was you could have this much confidence is if you absolutely

knew

I didn't share a faction with you. Only Mafia know with 100% confidence that other players belong to a different faction.

A Papaya, ABR and theopor_COD are the scum. Good luck convincing the others to mislynch me today.

Heh your just like me in the fact that you too can become convinced that someone is scum if you don't like them. I guess it goes away with experience. Also, every vote used to feel personal to me. I can relate to you on several things, even tough we are on different sides.

Hey look, don't think I'm patronizing you, but take a step back from the situation. Try viewing it from another angle. There is difference between hope and refusal to look at reality. I know you really hope there are other masons out there, but there aren't. Life's a bitch.

[ryan]

Unofficial Votecount

A Papaya (1) -- bird1111
Aimee (2) -- Lowell, Sir Tornado
ryan (1) -- Ripley
Adel (3) -- Albert B. Rampage, A Papaya, theopor_COD
Albert B. Rampage (1) -- Lawrencelot

Not Voting: Aimee, Adel, ryan
11 alive, 6 to lynch.

Is that right?

[Adel]

A Papaya, ABR and theopor_COD are the scum. Good luck convincing the others to mislynch me today.

I do hope your scum buddies decide to bus you, otherwise it's game over.
Have you seen that counter-claim yet . . .

I must remember next time I play to actively go on a lurker hunt ignore all other scum tells, actively look to defend someone who looks scummy and want to lynch 2 masons who as yet have no counter-claim.

Seperately I do like playing with you Adel, your a decent player and put a great deal of effort into the game but sometimes being scum is tough, eh.

I appreciate the personal note.

I don't know what happened to that counter claim: They are on vacation, or think that a mislynch of me will aid their counter claim tomorrow, or maybe they think there is still hope for today of lynching y'all without outing themselves. I can't believe that you guys are masons: you are the ones that stopped looking for other tell among other players, you are the ones that somehow are able to know with 100% confidence the alignment of another player. I think this may get interesting once the other players get back and wade through these 15 or so pages of nonsense and noise y'all have managed to generate.

[Adel]

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

I might as well stick by my guns. I could easily vote for A Papaya for the 1:1 post:scumtell ratio. theopor_OCD I am not as confident of.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not a mason and I actually think the last few pages have been very productive not just noise.