Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[theopor_COD]

Same goes for Ripley and Theo, I don't understand how you guys can believe ABR so easily. To me, he is scummier than scummy.

He may well be scummier than scum, but he and Papaya have both claimed mason, without a counter-claim I believe them. End of story. I didn't actually have you pencilled in as scum, but your logic the last page astounds me . . .

[theopor_COD]

Well it looks like my only hope would be a counterclaim by the real masons... but I think I am being lynched by the real masons.

"I'm actively looking to clear Ryan"

was supposed to me being open and honest about my bias and motivations. I thought playing as town meant I didn't have to hide that stuff.

As town your aim is to flush out the three scum, actively looking to clear someone doesn't compute.

Vote stays.

Sir Tornado why are you ignoring the current situation and voting Aimee?

[Adel]

I didn't want to think of ryan as scum- that would make me a fool. I gave my best argument for why he isn't scum, and I was intellectually honest enough to state my intent so others would have a fair understanding of my selection bias. Should compute.

Funny, you said you wouldn't believe a counter-claim earlier. Now lack of a counter-claim is your evidence in support of the claim?

If masons can play well enough for a fake-claim to get lynched without outing themselves, town wins. I hope we have masons like that rather then Albert and Papaya.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado why are you ignoring the current situation and voting Aimee?

I have already given my reason for that.

If the voting goes as per the current trend, we will have our lynch before we hear from everyone and I don't want that to happen. I will be happy to vote for Adel, Ryan or Lowell before this day is over.

However, I don't think now is the time, because I sense this as a potentially lynchable situation. I feel that we are lynching too quickly.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado why are you ignoring the current situation and voting Aimee?

EBWOP: Please ignore my last post as there were some formating errors in it. I will retype (or, rather copy-paste) it again here

I have already given my reason for that.

If the voting goes as per the current trend, we will have our lynch before we hear from everyone and I don't want that to happen. I will be happy to vote for Adel, Ryan or Lowell before this day is over.

However, I don't think now is the time, because I sense this as a potentially lynchable situation. I feel that we are lynching too quickly.

[theopor_COD]

Adel - what do you make of Lawrencelot's take on things in 308 and Sir Tornado's eagerness to go back to lurkers? Why at the start of the game would you not want to think of an opposing player as scum? As a townie you have no idea who's scum, who's not, why would you be a fool for not thinking Ryan may be scum? He may not be . . . but surely you should realise he may be and therefore not actively be looking to clear him.

As regards a counter-claim if there was going to be one I think it would have happened by now. Albert and Papaya are stupid yes and have revealed themselves much earlier than I'd like, but I believe them as it stands.

I'm eagerly awaiting some input from Bird and Aimee, a fresh face to scan over everything, shall we say.

[theopor_COD]

If the voting goes as per the current trend, we will have our lynch before we hear from everyone and I don't want that to happen. I will be happy to vote for Adel, Ryan or Lowell before this day is over.

Okay fair enough, although I don't see why your voting Aimee when she hasn't posted for yonks. As I state above hearing from Bird and Aimee is something that I'm looking forward to, both have been detached since the claim and there input would be appreciated.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm eagerly awaiting some input from Bird and Aimee, a fresh face to scan over everything, shall we say.

That was in effect, exactly what I was saying for the last page or so.

But, I am "going after the lurkers" while you are not.

Moral of the story: I really need to learn to express myself better...

The vote on Aimee was not of any great consequence. It will be off the moment she posts... besides, I wanted to put my vote on someone, and that someone was not to be Adel, Ryan or Lowell (for reasons I gave above) nor on A Papaya or Albert (because I believe in their claim) nor on you or Ripley (because I feel I am already getting all I want out of both of you without prodding)

A vote on Lawrencelot seemed to be a bit idiotic, because I feel he is a townie who has a grudge on ABR for some reason I cannot fathom, and me voting on him might start a bandwagon on him, which would be anti-town.

So, whose left? Bird and Aimee... I choose Aimee because Bird had actually posted something early on.

Having said that, I really don't think I should have actually taken efforts to type exactly how my brain is working right now, but there you are anyway...

[Sir Tornado]

[quote="In post 331, theopor_COD]
Okay fair enough, although I don't see why your voting Aimee when she hasn't posted for yonks. As I state above hearing from Bird and Aimee is something that I'm looking forward to, both have been detached since the claim and there input would be appreciated.
[/quote]

Actually they have been detached since before the claim...

What is your take on ARB's 72 hour issued and then canceled deadline? Can you guess the reason for him to issue it in the first place?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP

Okay fair enough, although I don't see why your voting Aimee when she hasn't posted for yonks. As I state above hearing from Bird and Aimee is something that I'm looking forward to, both have been detached since the claim and there input would be appreciated.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not sure really, I don't like the way he held the town to ransom, but being as I believe the claim what more is there to say.

[theopor_COD]

Ryan what do you make of Adel and the fact he "was actively looking to clear you"?

[Ripley]

He may well be scummier than scum, but he and Papaya have both claimed mason, without a counter-claim I believe them. End of story.

This is precisely what I think. It really is that simple.

I'm massively suspicious of anybody that continues, in the absence of a counterclaim, to say otherwise. I strongly suspect that there's an attempt going on to bait ABR into revealing the third mason.

I have no difficulty accepting that ABR, as a genuine mason with A Papaya, would have claimed when he did.

1. Whatever some people have said, there was a lot of doubt about Papaya's claim, and vocal players like ryan and the ever-busy Adel were going to be campaigning against him. A Papaya, on the other hand, was clearly unable to defend himself further. His only defense was his claim, and he'd used it already.

Even now

, with a second mason having come forward to confirm him, three players (so far) are still claiming to disbelieve him. What on earth chance did he have on his own?

2. This is something I've only just worked out, knowing as I do now (but didn't yesterday) about the running war between ABR and Adel. I strongly suspect ABR's real,

gut

reason for claiming when he did is neatly encapsulated by his own remark in his claim post:

Yes, I am Mason. Take that Adel, you pompous ***.

It even appears on the same line as the claim. ABR was sick to death of Adel's officiousness and, knowing he was in the right and she was in the wrong, he spoke up to puncture the pomposity of which he complains. I am absolutely convinced that he would not have done this as scum, leaving it open for Adel to ultimately gloat over him that she was right all along. Just look at the psychology of it. He's telling the truth all right.

If the scum do not NK him, then it would be proof positive that he is the scum and is lying, and we lynch him on day 2.

You can surely see the flaw with that. You just offered the scum a free pass to use their first night kill to try and find the third mason, and promised that the town would lynch ABR next day for them.

I agree with Sir Tornado that we need to hear from the absentees and that scum could easily be found among them. I think the ryan/Adel/Lowell scum group is probably too obvious.

More later. (Just saw a load of new posts on preview, sorry but I haven't read those yet.)

[Sir Tornado]

I agree with Sir Tornado that we need to hear from the absentees and that scum could easily be found among them. I think the ryan/Adel/Lowell scum group is probably too obvious.

Or, that could be exactly what the scum wants us to think... that's a possibility we shouldn't neglect either.

You can surely see the flaw with that. You just offered the scum a free pass to use their first night kill to try and find the third mason, and promised that the town would lynch ABR next day for them.

Put it this way: If we get a scum right now, and they don't get a mason in NK, their chances are really very slim. 9 players, 2 scum, 3 masons, and that on day 2 when we have some information on everyone. It really becomes too easy for us after that.

[Adel]

Adel - what do you make of Lawrencelot's take on things in 308 and Sir Tornado's eagerness to go back to lurkers?

I do not know if the mason claims are credible.
If the masons are masons then Lawrencelot's post is similar to my take on things: probable good intentions but wrong. Reading his post was like a weight being lifted off my shoulders. Being persecuted by the good guys while you are innocent is a horrible feeling. He is right about ABR and Papaya being the worse masons ever. I don't know why he would conclude that I am a mason, I'm not. I don't like that he fails to consider he possibility that ABR and Papaya are masons but I am not scum. I don't think he proved any connection between theopor and ABR. He could be scum, but I doubt it because I think scum in his position would be eager to lynch me. Players who joined ABR's wagon are more likely to be scum: they would know my alignment.

If the claimed masons are lying, then Lawrencelot's post could be what saves the game, and he is a hero. He would be correct about everything except who he thinks are masons. I am not going to offer any analysis about who I think are the masons, sorry. And I'm not going to threaten to out who I think is a mason if ABR isn't lynched in 72 hours either.

Any scum in Papaya's position would claim mason. ABR's claim doesn't make sense as mason or scum. Papaya was not under lynch danger, the hammer wasn't about to drop. We were shifting our attention away from Papaya because we were giving him the benefit of the doubt in his claim.

Why at the start of the game would you not want to think of an opposing player as scum?

Because I don't want to be proven to be so totally wrong in my understanding of Mafia theory. I took a close look at him, and listed what tells I saw, including one no one else caught,

and

I was honest about posible sources of bias in my thinking. We all have intuition and preconceived notions that may lead our thinking astray. I tried to identify and announce mine. For the good of the town. Now my selfless act is being used as a scumtell, that doesn't make me very happy.

As a townie you have no idea who's scum, who's not, why would you be a fool for not thinking Ryan may be scum?

Because I put so much energy into defending him. I am not a mason with him, so I made a judgement call in defending him

without

being 100% sure of his alignment. I do not want to be wrong about him.

He may not be . . . but surely you should realise he may be and therefore not actively be looking to clear him.

Have I explained this to your satisfaction yet? Am I just blowing logic at scum here?

As regards a counter-claim if there was going to be one I think it would have happened by now. Albert and Papaya are stupid yes and have revealed themselves much earlier than I'd like, but I believe them as it stands.

What would you think of the tactic of masons not claiming out of fear of loosing one to a lynch and another to a NK by the ABR & Papaya faction? I would not claim if I were a Mason.

Why did you claim that you wouldn't believe a mason claim, and now you won't believe a mason claim because it took so long?

I'm eagerly awaiting some input from Bird and Aimee, a fresh face to scan over everything, shall we say.

Agreed.

[Adel]

A vote on Lawrencelot seemed to be a bit idiotic, because I feel he is a townie who has a grudge on ABR for some reason I cannot fathom, and me voting on him might start a bandwagon on him, which would be anti-town.

Does ABR's claim that Lawrencelot would only post that way out of a grudge hold water with you? I read it like "Hey guys, ignore his logic because his case is nothing more than a personal vendetta" without addressing the actual points raised.

What points? Why have ABR and Papaya acted so scummy and routinely anti-town if they are masons? Doesn't compute.

[Sir Tornado]

Same goes for Ripley and Theo, I don't understand how you guys can believe ABR so easily. To me, he is scummier than scummy.

He may well be scummier than scum, but he and Papaya have both claimed mason, without a counter-claim I believe them. End of story.

Hmm... I had missed this part earlier it seems...

Here's a question for you and Ripley. If anyone (especially one of the guys on the hotseat) counter-claim now, would you believe them?

[theopor_COD]

Adel to finish the issue regards you defending Ryan. As town I don't defend no-one but myself . . . obviously if I feel someone is using a bad argument to attack someone then I'll defend said person, I won't however be actively looking to clear them. The only people who really should be actively defending people and looking to clear others are the masons. As for the claims - until a counter-claim materialises I believe Papaya and Albert - I think if they were lieing scumbags and three other masons were out there, they'd probably read the thread and out them, or at least have done it by now.

[A Papaya]

I really think that the answer here is quite simple. Today, we lynch Adel/Ryan/Lawrencalot. If one of them is scum, then we're good to go.

If the one we lynch is town, then we try the second possible group, of Aimee/bird, etc.

And if none of those are scum, we take it from there. It seems to me to be worth finding out if one of Adel/ryan/lawrencalot is scum before day 2.

[Sir Tornado]

A vote on Lawrencelot seemed to be a bit idiotic, because I feel he is a townie who has a grudge on ABR for some reason I cannot fathom, and me voting on him might start a bandwagon on him, which would be anti-town.

Does ABR's claim that Lawrencelot would only post that way out of a grudge hold water with you? I read it like "Hey guys, ignore his logic because his case is nothing more than a personal vendetta" without addressing the actual points raised.

Well, there was something else too... he marked you down as a mason when you'd claimed early on that you weren't. Then there was this:

Theo is on the same side as ABR I think. I agree it doesn't make sense for Albert to claim mason if they were scum, but claiming mason while they were both mason makes just as much sense. ABR thought A Papaya was getting lynched or something, so claiming mason while he's scum makes as much sense as claiming mason while he's mason.

That, for me is simply logic defying. It makes no sense whatsoever for ABR to claim if both were scum. Wouldn't he try to cut the scum losses and dissociate himself from his doomed scum mate when he felt the game was up? Remember that A Papaya was heavily besieged at the moment, with 3 people doubting his claim, which, if false, would be snubbed by a counter claim.

[Sir Tornado]

I really think that the answer here is quite simple. Today, we lynch Adel/Ryan/Lawrencalot. If one of them is scum, then we're good to go.

If the one we lynch is town, then we try the second possible group, of Aimee/bird, etc.

And if none of those are scum, we take it from there. It seems to me to be worth finding out if one of Adel/ryan/lawrencalot is scum before day 2.

Give me one reason why we shouldn't lynch YOU or ABR if your choice of lynch turns out to be a townie? Ok, so, you've claimed mason, and I believe that for now, but I will have major doubts over that if your lynch does not turn out to be a scum.

Your saying we lynch A/R/L today and Aimee/Bird tomorrow if the first lynch is a townie sounds highly suspicious to me. The reason being, that if we get 2 lynches incorrect, we lose the game. It is as simple as that. This is exactly what a Scum would do.

And, even if you indeed are a Mason (which I believe at least right now) you seem dripping with scuminess.

[Ripley]

Give me one reason why we shouldn't lynch YOU or ABR if your choice of lynch turns out to be a townie?

Sir T, you seem convinced that the scum will NK a known mason if possible, so you must surely believe that if ABR and A Papaya are masons it will be apparent to everybody on Day 2 by the fact that one of them will be dead.

The reason being, that if we get 2 lynches incorrect, we lose the game. It is as simple as that.

Is it? I thought we were allowed two mistakes. 11 of us alive today, 8 town 3 scum. If we lynch wrong, tomorrow 6 town 3 scum. We lynch wrong again, 4 town 3 scum. We're still alive. (Numbers aren't my strong point, I may easily have this wrong.)

[Adel]

Adel to finish the issue regards you defending Ryan. As town I don't defend no-one but myself . . . obviously if I feel someone is using a bad argument to attack someone then I'll defend said person, I won't however be actively looking to clear them. The only people who really should be actively defending people and looking to clear others are the masons. As for the claims - until a counter-claim materialises I believe Papaya and Albert - I think if they were lieing scumbags and three other masons were out there, they'd probably read the thread and out them, or at least have done it by now.

Depending on how this turns out, I may very well adopt you tactic of never defending another in this game. In RL I am all about building consensus to solve difficult problems with conflicting personality types, and that is the skill set I bring to the game. My instinct is to defend someone that I work well with, and to pay it forward whenever possible. That means taking risks with some people some of the time, but on average it really does average out in my and the team's favor. I am a leader and a team-builder. ryan was acting in the way a good team member should- applying pressure to generate posts for the good of the town. He earned the benefit of the doubt in my eyes though his pro-town actions, so I took a risk in defending him. I see nothing wrong in my actions. If this game is so totally backwards that the scummiest players are the masons, and the most pro-town players are scum... I'll begin to doubt my capacity of being a good mafia player.

You still haven't explained why you said that you wouldn't believe a counter-claim earlier than reversed and used the absence of a counter claim as evidence in support of the claim by ABR and Papaya.

Do you disagree that if ABR and Papaya are scum then the best case scenario for town is a lynch of fake-mason without the claim or outing of a single real-mason?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I really think that the answer here is quite simple. Today, we lynch Adel/Ryan/Lawrencalot. If one of them is scum, then we're good to go.

If the one we lynch is town, then we try the second possible group, of Aimee/bird, etc.

And if none of those are scum, we take it from there. It seems to me to be worth finding out if one of Adel/ryan/lawrencalot is scum before day 2.

You sir, have done enough damage to the town. You are not in a position to direct us to do

anything

right now. Not to be mean or anything, but you disobeyed the masonry, failed to defend yourself and claimed for your own selfish preservation.

Now back to business. Adel looks a lot like she's trying to set me up to reveal the third mason, which I will not do. The ultimatum was a bluff to gather information, I've already stated this. I do not want to quicklynch anyone, I want enough votes where votes are due. Don't make me quote myself on this.

To me its very simple, Adel is the head with either ryan or Lowell as her right-hand. They are probably all too stubborn, but if one of these two are townies, that one better start turning on his triumvirate, because it reeks of scumminess.

The town is indeed blessed with two mistakes. If by the first mistake, no mason has died, then the third will be revealed. Another mistake will be affordable. If still no masons have died, the town is in its right to lynch one of the claimed masons. At this point we will be 4 towns, 3 mafia, but all the mafia will be known if A papaya or me are lying. If he proves to be scum, there will be no possibility of a mislynch. Its as simple as that.

Now, these are my instructions for A Papaya:

In the event of my demise

, I want you to immediately and publicly announce the last mason of the group. A single mason is of no use to the town, and would be abused by the mafia. I will be waiting for acknowledgment.

[Adel]

I agree it doesn't make sense for Albert to claim mason if they were scum, but claiming mason while they were both mason makes just as much sense. ABR thought A Papaya was getting lynched or something, so claiming mason while he's scum makes as much sense as claiming mason while he's mason.

That, for me is simply logic defying. It makes no sense whatsoever for ABR to claim if both were scum. Wouldn't he try to cut the scum losses and dissociate himself from his doomed scum mate when he felt the game was up? Remember that A Papaya was heavily besieged at the moment, with 3 people doubting his claim, which, if false, would be snubbed by a counter claim.

The votes weren't there for a Papaya lynch even before his claim. Then eh claimed and he really wasn't under pressure, the votes were peeling off (wasn;t mine the first to come off?) and there was no reason for ABR to counter claim. I do not buy Ripley's pyschological explanation, since there was the 72 hour deadline thing the ABR was pressing for through several posts.

If they are both scum, and ABR felt I had linked them too closely, a positive lynch of Papaya would result in a lynch of ABR day 2 anyway. Maybe a quick lynch of an innocent is they only way they could buy their scummate an additional day to do it alone, and by ABR fake-claiming while the tide was turning a quicklynch could've occurred.