Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[JordanA24]

That bit about almost understanding his reasoning is mine.

[Simenon]

First of all, I do know what appeal to emotion means, and you are trying to pressure people, you may as well be saying "If you don't start voting for this guy, then you'll start looking scummy as well."

I don't recall saying such things. Rather, if everyone did start voting this guy, I'd be quite suspicious.

And my statement wasn't silly, it's a well established scum tactic to try and cover their tracks after a mislynch, as then they go after the 2nd and 3rd on the bandwagon.

Your idea is silly. You are basically saying scum will vote first on the bandwagon to avoid the second or the third vote. What you fail to understand is

one vote is not a wagon

.

And besides, wheres a mislynch going to start if somebody (usually scum) doesn't get the ball rolling?

X

Starting a wagon on a townie is a nontell at worst, and at best an indication of someone being protown enough not to care about standing out.

And if those other two posts weren't useless spam, then what were they?

Comments on the game, obv.

[JordanA24]

First of all, I do know what appeal to emotion means, and you are trying to pressure people, you may as well be saying "If you don't start voting for this guy, then you'll start looking scummy as well."

I don't recall saying such things. Rather, if everyone did start voting this guy, I'd be quite suspicious.

Hang on, why would you be suspicious of someone voting for me when you're so sure I'm scum.

And my statement wasn't silly, it's a well established scum tactic to try and cover their tracks after a mislynch, as then they go after the 2nd and 3rd on the bandwagon.

Your idea is silly. You are basically saying scum will vote first on the bandwagon to avoid the second or the third vote. What you fail to understand is

one vote is not a wagon

.

I've got 2 votes on me, still not a bandwagon, but the point is that if it does become a bandwagon that gets me lynched, then you can start blaming the 2nd and 3rd voters on the bandwagon.

And besides, wheres a mislynch going to start if somebody (usually scum) doesn't get the ball rolling?

X

Starting a wagon on a townie is a nontell at worst, and at best an indication of someone being protown enough not to care about standing out.

Fair point.

And if those other two posts weren't useless spam, then what were they?

Comments on the game, obv.

It'd be nice if you could add something useful to these comments.

[Simenon]

Hang on, why would you be suspicious of someone voting for me when you're so sure I'm scum.

See: everyone. I realize that isn't as clear as it is intended. If there was a sudden quick move to wagon you, then I would be highly skeptical.

I've got 2 votes on me, still not a bandwagon, but the point is that if it does become a bandwagon that gets me lynched, then you can start blaming the 2nd and 3rd voters on the bandwagon.

It would depend on the context of the wagon. "Third on the wagon" is a bit of an outdated tell.

[JordanA24]

Hang on, why would you be suspicious of someone voting for me when you're so sure I'm scum.

See: everyone. I realize that isn't as clear as it is intended. If there was a sudden quick move to wagon you, then I would be highly skeptical.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

If Jordan was town, I think there would be much more enthusiasm for his lynch by now.

I've got 2 votes on me, still not a bandwagon, but the point is that if it does become a bandwagon that gets me lynched, then you can start blaming the 2nd and 3rd voters on the bandwagon.

It would depend on the context of the wagon. "Third on the wagon" is a bit of an outdated tell.

WIFOM anybody?

[Simenon]

Now you're contradicting yourself.

No, I am not.

If Jordan was town, I think there would be much more enthusiasm for his lynch by now.

WIFOM anybody?

Sorry, but both are not WIFOM.

[Paradoxombie]

No. Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that I had a reason that I don't feel like sharing, as it would only serve to be a distraction. It is irrelevant- there is no positive gain I can see by disclosing my reason. At all. Hell, for all you know, I may have even forgotten my original reasoning. That's how little impact it has on this game.

If it really is so irrelevent then I don't see why you won't just say it, unless it's suspect. Hence I assume it is suspicious. So you're denying that. Fine then.

So really, why would this insignificant little original reason that you claim has no bearing on the game be so dangerous to reveal? To the point where you believe it would be worse to reveal than to continue with this distraction it has become from your refusal to comply?

We have to trust your word for it that you made a mistake and I don't trust you particularly.

Yes, I think we all agree that taking someone's word in this game seems like a bad idea

/irony

[Patrick]

Jordan seems to keep lashing out at people. I'm unsure what it says about his alignment because scum may want to OMGUS those attacking them who they see as more of a threat, but town sometimes assume that people attacking them are probably scum.

To expand on (what I think) Simenon is saying, bandwagons on protown players in general may skyrocket, because there's usually a few scum around on the look out for an oppotunity and who would happily push the bandwagon forward. Wagons on scum don't get that same propulsion, and may have other scum trying to subtly deflect it by bringing up alternatives. I don't know how applicable that is in this size game at such an early stage. There is always a natural resistance to putting someone at 3 votes anyway. I can sort of see what Simenon is saying though.

I don't see what the contradiction is meant to be by the way.

[JordanA24]

Now you're contradicting yourself.

No, I am not.

So you say that if I were scum, there'd be much more enthusiasm for my lynch, and then you say that you'd be suspicious of any quick bandwagons, if it's not contradicting yourself, then what is it?

3rd on the bandwagon isn't really outdated, and neither is -1.

[Patrick]

Erm. I think you simply misread there Jordan. He said if you were town they'd be more enthusiasm for your lynch.

[JordanA24]

Erm. I think you simply misread there Jordan. He said if you were town they'd be more enthusiasm for your lynch.

<Censored>

[JordanA24]

I'm not doing very well aren't I.

[Ripley]

Paradoxombie continues to focus exclusively on Simenon's refusal to divulge his original scumtell on Jordan. I don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Simenon originally voted Jordan when all Jordan had done was random vote with a dice roll. He's probably prolonging the whole thing because it amuses him to be awkward.

Seriously struggling to keep up with my gameload at present, but I'll try and post more soon.

[CrashTextDummie]

Better late then never, you get a

Vote Count

:

JordanA24

(2):

Simenon, Patrick

Simenon

(2):

Paradoxombie, Jordan24

Patrick

(1):

Teffc

Not voting

(2):

Ripley, Aimee

7 alive, 4 to lynch.

[Patrick]

We'll never succeed in getting rid of the deadline with this level of activity. Lucky that Aimee is back today really. Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far? Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.

[Ripley]

I'm sorry I haven't had more to say. A reread might spark some new thoughts; I maybe should have done this already but it's not a bad idea to get some input from Aimee first. Also, 3 other games I'm in have been really eventful over the last couple of days (Patrick can vouch for 2 out of the 3) and it's been natural and necessary to put those first, with so little happening here.

In the meantime:

I would like to hear the answers to the questions Patrick asked Paradoxombie in p 139.

I just realised I had no clue what teffc thought about anything, so did a quick look at her posts in isolation. Seems very much the kind of player who likes to be seen to examine all viewpoints and be fair to everybody, find alternative reasons why people might have done stuff. Still has her original vote for Patrick in place, and I don't find her reasoning terribly good. She claims not to get his sense of humor in the early posts, but she was joining in the jokes about pie just like anybody, right up to post28, after which she abruptly seems to lose it when Patrick makes an obvious joke about always being protown in the very next post.

Another reason she gives for suspicion of Patrick is "trying to prove you are right" - um, don't we all do that? In this post (82) she actually seems to have more reason to suspect Jordan than Patrick, but all Jordan gets is a FOS.

Her only comment on the Simenon. Jordan exchanges is "And Jordan! the more you say the more tangled in your affirmations you get.", implying she thinks Simenon has the better of the argument, though subsequently she brushes this aside with "It's possible Jordan made a mistake or something. " keeping her vote on Patrick, who she now describes with Simenon as "the dream team". Hmmm.....

[Teffc]

Back and wondering why jordan is appealing to emotions-because he seems to be in his last two posts. I didn't like that before, when he unvoted after the "irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant..." post Sim made.
still, if he is scum, why hasn't anyone come to his defence?

[Patrick]

still, if he is scum, why hasn't anyone come to his defence?

Scum don't necessarily defend each other in obvious ways -- it just leaves obvious links. Certain players have been defending him indirectly by channeling suspicion onto other players. That doesn't necessarily make Jordan scum of course, nor the other players, but it's an example of how scum could conceivably try to help each other.

Got anything to say in reply to Ripley's comments about you?

[Teffc]

@ Ripley

Seems very much the kind of player who likes to be seen to examine all viewpoints and be fair to everybody, find alternative reasons why people might have done stuff.

And you are saying i am not fair to Patrick because i am keeping my vote on him. Got that but i'm stubborn.

she actually seems to have more reason to suspect Jordan than Patrick, but all Jordan gets is a FOS.

Lynch -1 after only 4 pages. Are you aiming for a quick lynch or something? I have my doubts on puting my vote on jordan although he seems tangled.

Her only comment on the Simenon. Jordan exchanges is "And Jordan! the more you say the more tangled in your affirmations you get.", implying she thinks Simenon has the better of the argument, though subsequently she brushes this aside with "It's possible Jordan made a mistake or something. " keeping her vote on Patrick, who she now describes with Simenon as "the dream team". Hmmm.....

I have seen jordan play in a mafia game in which both you and me were replaced. He had the same style and got into the same type of arguments. His head is somehow near the chopping block and he makes the same mistakes there. Plus, although Simenon says we shouldn't be going after scum partners i think it's better to see who reacts in which way first. and as i said in my previous post, i do not see anyone fending for him.

You are saying you have taken my posts out of context. And that helps you how? Most things lose or change their meaning. thus, you are misreading my posts.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far?

I can't say, He's given off a few scumtells, but it seems that most of the pressure on him has decreased and I haven't reached any conclusions yet.

Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

Neither of you haven't mentioned any flaws in my reasoning, so i don't understand what difference it makes.

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more

protown

resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

[Patrick]

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

Are you kidding me? You don't see what significance his motive has? The whole game of mafia is about discerning people's motives!

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

....?

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more protown resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

I think he's just being a tool for his own entertainment. Maybe it's easier to tell if you've played with him a few times. That said, some might argue it has been useful I suppose.

What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum. Saying that motive is irrelevant is just bizarre. It looks more like you're searching for reasons to have your vote on him rather than trying to discern his alignment.

[Paradoxombie]

What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum. Saying that motive is irrelevant is just bizarre.

Motive is irrelevant in my vote; it's not like I expect everyone else and jump and lynch him immediately. But you seem to implicitly admit that what Simenon is doing is suspicious, so I think doing somthing suspicious without any explanation is a good enough reason to suspect someone.

It looks more like you're searching for reasons to have your vote on him rather than trying to discern his alignment.

True enough, if someone wanted to FOS me that would be reasonable, but I guess you're all already doing this in your heads. Note, though, that it is the "looks" part that I'm agreeing with.

[Aimee]

I'm back. Post coming tomorrow.

[Aimee]

And Paradoxombie is just baffling me. What have Patrick or Ripley done to deserve any real suspicion at this stage. I agree with Patrick here - you voted against Simenon without any real reasoning.

[JordanA24]

Back and wondering why jordan is appealing to emotions-because he seems to be in his last two posts. I didn't like that before, when he unvoted after the "irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant..." post Sim made.

Sorry, I was just so embarrassed and pissed off at myself because, so far, I'm probably putting in the worst performance in the history of the site. I gave myself a break from this game to try and get my act toghether.

I unvoted because it was obvious I wasn't getting anywhere pressuring Sim, so I felt it was best to try and put my focus elsewhere, not that Sim is cleared at all, I'm still suspicious of him.

I agree it's odd how Paradox has FOS'ed Patrick and Ripley for reasons that are poor at best and flawed at worst.