Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[Lawrencelot]

I'm claiming.

I'm a mason. My fellow masons can prove it true.

Not sure if I buy this, but I would unvote now if I had my vote on you. Let's see the possibilities:

Papaya is townie: this is a very stupid move, like theopor said, and although I wouldn't be surprised if he did this, I wonder why he would say "my fellow masons can prove it true". Townie is not very likely.

Papaya is mason: From his previous post, we cannot conclude that he is no mason. But, why would he want his fellow masons to prove it true? To save his own skin, but he was at lynch -2. If his fellow masons would indeed come out to prove it, we wouldn't have much chance in winning the game.

Papaya is scum: This would be a good strategy for scum. If a mason doesn't show up, he is not lynched, if a mason does, the scum can kill a mason tonight. I think this has a slightly higher chance than him being a mason, but not enough to vote him.

In short: I am a bit more suspicious of Papaya, but still not enough to vote him.

IGMEOY: A Papaya

[Sir Tornado]

I'm claiming.

I'm a mason. My fellow masons can prove it true.

I really don't understand this claim.

Here's my take on claiming:

1) IF A PAPAYA is SCUM-
(a) he claims MASON. A mason emerges to call him out. We kill a scum, we lose a mason.

net PLUS for the town

(b) he claims TOWN. Tries to argue his way out. Probably can't. We kill scum and masons remain hidden.

HUGE PLUS for the town

2) IF A PAPAYA is MASON- he claims mason. No counterclaims. We kill someone else but lose a mason at night.

BIG LOSS for the town

3) IF A PAPAYA is TOWN-
(a) he claims town and tries to argue his way out. Mabye can't. We lynch him.

NET Loss for the town

(b) he panics, claims MASON. Mason emerges to counter. We lynch Papaya, then lose mason at night

GAME-BREAKING Loss for town

Applying the above logic, unless A Papaya is scum, the town loses no matter what happens. First of all, if A Papaya is a mason, then:

1) Some one confirms this claim
2) No one confirms the claim

If the claim is confirmed, we have 2 masons unearthed. Scum get them in to NKs, and you have the threat of masons negated.

If the claim is not confirmed, we lynch A Papaya. We lose one mason, and possibly another one in NK.

If A Papaya is townie, then no one will confirm this. We lynch a town. Combined with a NK, we have 2 townies gone. 3 Mafia out of 9 on day two doesn't look good to me at all, especially if the scum can get a mason at night. If not, then we would have 3 scum, 3 town and 3 mason, which might make the job of hunting scum a bit easier if the masons coordinate well.

If A Papaya is scum, he is finished. I'd take 1 scum for 1 Mason NK anyday, because only 2 scum out of 9 with 2 masons remaining tilts the game in the favour of the town enormously.

The point I am trying to make is -- and what I think Lowell was saying is -- I feel that A Papaya's claim will not really help the town at all unless he is a scum. It is, I feel, anti-town and will cause only trouble for us.

That is the reason why I am keeping my vote on A Papaya for now.

[ryan]

Hmm. If you are a mason A Papaya,

please place a vote on whom you believe is most likely to be scum

. I think that would help us evaluate your claim with out the other masons having to out themselves if you are telling the truth.

A question that has still gone unanswered. Who is scum in your mind? We've got 4 non votes right now and it'd be nice to get some imput from some of the people who have not helped us actively find the scum in this game, you know who you are.

[Sir Tornado]

You know, this is my first real game here (my newbie game -- newbie 378 -- was messed up royally), so I may be wrong here, but is it normal to just focus on one player only? As it stands right now, most players are going after A Papaya, or defending him. Shouldn't we enlarge our perspective a bit? Take a look at other players? We still don't have any deadline, so, we don't have to be too hasty in lynching anyone.

I supported A Papaya bandwagon earlier on so that he may come under pressure and atleast post, or give out something scummy. All we got from him is a mason claim. I am not sure we would get anything else from A Papaya. He seems to have clamed up.

I feel that we shouldn't lynch just for the sake of lynching the lurkers, but lynch only when we are absolutely certain about the scumminess of the lynchee, especially when we do not have a deadline in the place.

Having said that, I would still keep my vote where it is (on A Papaya), at least until we get a confirmation or a denunciation of A Papaya's claim. But, at the same time, I think we should also start looking else where -- at the active posters -- the avid lurker hunters as well and try to put them under pressure and get something out of them too

[Patrick]

Votecount

Lowell (2) -- Ripley, Albert B. Rampage
A Papaya (3) -- ryan, bird1111, Sir Tornado
Aimee (1) -- Lowell
ryan (1) -- theopor_COD

Not Voting: Aimee, A Papaya, Lawrencelot, Adel
11 alive, 6 to lynch.

[ryan]

You know, this is my first real game here (my newbie game -- newbie 378 -- was messed up royally), so I may be wrong here, but is it normal to just focus on one player only? As it stands right now, most players are going after A Papaya, or defending him. Shouldn't we enlarge our perspective a bit? Take a look at other players? We still don't have any deadline, so, we don't have to be too hasty in lynching anyone.

I supported A Papaya bandwagon earlier on so that he may come under pressure and atleast post, or give out something scummy. All we got from him is a mason claim. I am not sure we would get anything else from A Papaya. He seems to have clamed up.

I feel that we shouldn't lynch just for the sake of lynching the lurkers, but lynch only when we are absolutely certain about the scumminess of the lynchee, especially when we do not have a deadline in the place.

Having said that, I would still keep my vote where it is (on A Papaya), at least until we get a confirmation or a denunciation of A Papaya's claim. But, at the same time, I think we should also start looking else where -- at the active posters -- the avid lurker hunters as well and try to put them under pressure and get something out of them too

That is why I quoted a bunch of posts to look at others. ABR and Lowell both (after my re-read) have said a few things that have raised my eyebrow. I'd like to hear more content from our lurkers but since Papaya makes a claim (as early as he did) I'm still thinking a scum that's trying to swerve the rest of the town

[Adel]

As it stands right now, most players are going after A Papaya, or defending him. Shouldn't we enlarge our perspective a bit? Take a look at other players? We still don't have any deadline, so, we don't have to be too hasty in lynching anyone.

I supported A Papaya bandwagon earlier on so that he may come under pressure and atleast post, or give out something scummy. All we got from him is a mason claim.

I also want to take a look at other players, but if nothing convincing and serious comes up my vote goes back to A Papaya. I'm mostly convinced that he is scum; if he is town or mason he isn't much good to us as town or mason.

I mean, just look at all of those insightful posts he authored! I don't know about the rest of you, but he really helped illuminate for me the relative innocence or guilt of most players here. [/sarcasm]

[Albert B. Rampage]

I can attest to the claim my foolhardy mason made. I PM'd A Papaya to not reveal he is mason no matter what, but I underestimated his cowardice.

Yes, I am Mason. Take that Adel, you pompous ***.

I will keep the identity of the last mason a secret until tomorrow when either me or Papaya will be NK'd.

I would like to appease your conscience that I would never have claimed mason if I weren't one in reality. Claiming mason when your a townie is idiotic, and I will reassure you that you can trust I am either scum or mason. In the eventuality that I am scum, you will already have two correct lynchings at hand, but I doubt that will come to pass since when one of us dies, it will confirm the other.

Adel and Ryan are the two that have stood out the most as scum to me. I would like all of your thoughts on these two before I post my own analysis to not bias your individual conclusions.

To whom it may concern: You've chosen the wrong masonry to screw with. Mess with the best, die like the rest.

[Adel]

A Papaya is at -3 to lynch, and our attention was already turning elsewhere. Why would you also be so dumb as to reveal yourself? Not the best Masonry move, is it? I hope that one or both of you are lying, but aren't scum. I am interested in hearing your case against ryan though, and your reasons for voting Lowell and keeping your vote on Lowell, neither of which make sense to me yet.

[Albert B. Rampage]

A Papaya is at -3 to lynch, and our attention was already turning elsewhere. Why would you also be so dumb as to reveal yourself?

Because a) The mafia would've figured it out without me claiming, b) Less confusion about papaya, c) We can get to lynching the serious targets, d) Mafia can only NK one target at the time, e) The survivor can confirm the identity of the last mason.

Is that enough for you or will you keep on this obnoxious charade ? You can stop trying to act tough and maybe start working on one last diagram before we silence you. Capisce ?

[ryan]

ABR I am REALLY hoping you are a townie just pulling a "fake claim" because now we have TWO people claiming mason and we haven't even gotten through Day 1 yet. I've played enough games to realize that you have a..........well "unique" way of playing but revealing this early is unlike you. I'm a little confused on why you'd vote Lowell if Adel and myself are the two you believe are scum. Can you explain your reasoning on that? Why are you so certain the mafia would have found you out without claiming? Isn't that a big assumption early on? The only thing that sticks out to me as you could be scum trying to save A Papaya with this claim. I'm feeling more confident in my vote on Papaya but this new claim does make me wonder a little more about you now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

GUYS GUYS! I FOUND THE SCUM! THEY'RE ALL HIDING IN ryan's CLOSET!!!

*everybody follows me rushing to the basement of ryan's house*

ALRIGHT, THIS IS IT.

*opens the closet door*

OMG! Adel, ryan and Lowell are all inside!

ABR I am REALLY hoping you are a townie just pulling a "fake claim" because now we have TWO people claiming mason and we haven't even gotten through Day 1 yet. I've played enough games to realize that you have a..........well "unique" way of playing but revealing this early is unlike you.

Believe it or not, I'm mason with Papaya.

I'm a little confused on why you'd vote Lowell if Adel and myself are the two you believe are scum. Can you explain your reasoning on that?

Goodbye confusion!

Unvote, vote Adel

Why are you so certain the mafia would have found you out without claiming? Isn't that a big assumption early on?

Because I've defended Papaya without evidence for a long time, plus a couple things the likes of Adel (who I believe is in the mafia) has pointed out:

You made the comment clearly referring to Lowell, the subject of your bandwagon. No misquote, I listed the post numbers to assist people in fact checking.

So, who is the third member of your scum group with A Papaya?

Replace scum with mason, and voila, the mafia has the masonry figured out at 66%. I simply put everyone on the same page, so the mafia didn't have an unfair informational advantage.

Assuming the masonry is me, papaya and a third member, it is quite fascinating to see the relationship between Adel, Lowell and ryan. Lowell is
my weakest suspect, as he has turned against ryan a few times. Also, he was the one who put up the foundation to the LAL proposition Adel cemented, so I cannot blame him too much. Lowell has either wised up considerably as scum, or he is a townie. I kept my vote on him to see how he would react against me, but he hasn't done anything slightly as scummy as in some other games when he was attacked.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Okay forgive the short skit introduction of the last post and let me clarify a few things:

On the LAL: Lowell could have unknowingly put up these arguments for Adel to have made a conclusion, so I can't accuse him too much on that.

Also, I am still suspicious of him, make no mistake about that.

Adel and ryan are almost definitive scum, and I would like everyone to analyze their play individually and as a pair.

[theopor_COD]

Adel and ryan are almost definitive scum, and I would like everyone to analyze their play individually and as a pair.

Hmm . . . ABR what do you make of the argument between me and Ryan, then Adel's subsequent input into it.

Furthermore, I was thinking if Papaya was telling the truth you would be one of the obvious partners. Scum are likely aware that Papaya's telling the truth, i.e he's either a mason or a completely idiotic townie to them. Re-reading you it does make sense and it wouldn't take a particularly clever scum to realise that you were a likely partner.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think you are town. ryan's reaction to you sounds forced. I would like to see you support the masonry and vote Adel as well.

GUYS GUYS! GATHER UP, I GOT SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO SAY.

*everyone gathers around*

If there's a goof in the masonry, the law of balance dictates there be a goof in the other camp as well. I believe that goofball to be ryan. Therefore the mafia will likely NK me over papaya for my brilliant play thus far, whereas the town should lynch Adel for her convincingly townish play thus far. If I weren't mason I would be fooled by her semantics. The fact that she chose to go after the wrong people have exposed her, and I trust that a few well placed rocks in her direction will do the town much good. So here is what I propose: at 3, we all turn around and stone Adel to unconsciousness, then I drag her into a smelly pit where we will never hear from her again. RDY GUYS ?

1...

2...

3!


*angry mob turns around*

This. is. SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!

[Ripley]

The only thing that sticks out to me as you could be scum trying to save A Papaya with this claim. I'm feeling more confident in my vote on Papaya but this new claim does make me wonder a little more about you now.

Are you serious? We have two masons confirming each other, as against

zero

counter claimants, and you're now

more

confident in your vote on Papaya? Sounds to me like you're so pleased with the success of disbelieving one uncountered claimed mason - it brought out a second - that you're sticking to the tactic in the hope of smoking out the third.

And if you're

more

confident in your vote on Papaya, how can you be just "wondering a little more" about ABR?

If there's a counterclaim, OK, I'll look at this again, but for the moment:

Unvote: Vote ryan

I've considered ABR's post about Adel. Assuming these claims are correct, which I'm going to assume for now given no other claims, Adel has done the town's cause vastly more damage than ryan - it's hard to recall a game where any one player has inflicted so much damage so early - but in his case I can just about see the possibility of him being too carried away with his own perceived cleverness and self-appointed role as policeman, his obsessive lurker hunting and his insistence on the game being played his way, to have the judgement to see what was happening. Of course, it might be much simpler than that - he could be scum. I could easily be persuaded of that, but for now I'm going with ryan, for the reasons stated above.

[Albert B. Rampage]

In Final Fantasy there was a sorceress called Adel, so I assume she's a she. Anyway that can be sorted when she comes back.

Ripley, ryan is almost confirmed scum from the points brought up by COD, you and I. Why waste a lynching on him when the most dangerous scum out there is Adel ? C'mon you've been on board with me the whole game, can you just trust me this once ? How many times do I have to stress that this is an open game ? NO cops!

Man, I'm getting tired of this. Here's my (weak attempt at an) ultimatum. Either everyone votes Adel (or at least don't put ryan too close to a lynching) or I reveal the last member of the masonry. Adel is going down, ladies and gentlemen - and the town needs YOU!

[Adel]

Albert was defending the anti-town behavior of lurking, I saw that as scummy play, I went after it linking him to A Papaya who was my best guess for scum. I pressed my case well, and forced my suspected scum to claim manson. His claim worked, we started looking for other candidates, and there are two people on vacation, and

then

Albert claims co-manson.

Adel has done the town's cause vastly more damage than ryan - it's hard to recall a game where any one player has inflicted so much damage so early

Assuming that they are telling the truth and are both town, how am I to blame for the damage that has been done? I see the result, but I don't understand why the lack of a counter-claim is in their favor.

I am not fishing for a counterclaim!

Question for everyone:

if A Papaya and Albert are lying about being masons, is it in the best interest of the town for a real mason to step forward? Why or why not?

[theopor_COD]

Albert - do call me theo, kthx.

I'll re-read Adel, kinda still waiting for more people to check in and comment.

[theopor_COD]

Question for everyone:

if A Papaya and Albert are lying about being masons, is it in the best interest of the town for a real mason to step forward? Why or why not?

Thing is if Papaya was scum, why on earth would Albert then claim mason aswell, it makes absolutely no sense for Albert to claim mason if he and Papaya are both scum. I don't think I'd believe a counter-claim to be honest.

[Lowell]

Goddam it.

If papaya claimed mason, the other masons needed to KEEP QUIET!!!

We'd have believed him if nothing was said. The idea was that someone woudl counterclaim IF he was lying...

Whatever. I'll be back Tuesday.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Because a) The mafia would've figured it out without me claiming, b) Less confusion about papaya, c) We can get to lynching the serious targets, d) Mafia can only NK one target at the time, e) The survivor can confirm the identity of the last mason.

A) Like it was mentioned, the mafia would have known who I was based on my play, therefore I am putting everyone on the same page.

B) Almost guarantees the papaya bandwagon to die and stay dead.

C) In light of this new information, Adel, Ryan and Lowell all look scummy.

D) The mafia can only NK 1 person, so assuming we lynch the right targets every time, we have a perfect victory even tough all 3 masons die.

E) If papaya would have been NK'd, nobody could confirm the identity of the 2 other masons, which would have disastrous consequences if Adel is as dangerous a mafia that I believe she is.

[theopor_COD]

I'm with Albert here. It doesn't take a genius out to realise if Papaya was mason then who would be likely to be his partners - the scum would be able to work it out I'm sure.

[Adel]

C) In light of this new information, Adel, Ryan and Lowell all look scummy.

I am not a mason with Lowell or Ryan, so I can not vouch for their alignment.

I am flattered by your opinion of me, just in this case I am a Town player and not a mafia player.

Here is the list of players:
ryan
A Papaya
Lawrencelot
Aimee
Ripley
Lowell
bird1111
Adel
Sir Tornado
Albert B. Rampage
theopor_COD

The three most active scum hunters happened to uncover a mason, because of his poor and scummy play, and now we as a group are the prime suspects? It isn't our fault that A Papaya was a mason! We weren't even going to lynch him because of lurking, and then he posted scummy crap.
Yes, I did defend Lowell and ryan. For their actions. Pressuring lurkers into posting is good for the town. Now we have three players on vacation. I still expect scum to be laying low and laughing at the silly townies exposing the masons and lynching other townies.

That said, I won't bet my life on both Lowell and ryan being innocent. I've been more focused on flushing lurkers, and then poking holes in Albert's "don't hunt lurkers" argument then suspecting the people helping me get more content out into the open.

Albert: was your "don't hunt the lurkers argument" just to keep me from nailing A Papaya? Do you disagree with it now?

[Adel]

I'm with Albert here. It doesn't take a genius out to realise if Papaya was mason then who would be likely to be his partners - the scum would be able to work it out I'm sure.

The counter-positive is that it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that Albert is the other scum if A Papaya's alignment is exposed by getting lynched on day 1. This could be a desperation move to buy an extra day for the third.

It really doesn't make sense to me either way. There was no deadline, there was no lynch that was about to occur, A Papaya was looking fairly safe even before he claimed, and was totally safe when Albert claimed.

Does anyone else think Albert's play to date in this game hasn't been any good?

We could start going through the list. This gives lurkers a great chance to jump in and post some insightful content. We have 10 pages to go off of.

The case against A Papaya is pretty clear, as is his claim. I suggest we skip him, but I am still waiting for him to tell us who he thinks is most likely scum, and vote for someone.

Is there a case for me being scum? Lets hear it if there is.

After everyone has had a chance to brainstorm a case against me, we can move on to the next person in alphabetical order: Aimee, then Albert, ect...

This is what I said before Albert claimed, & I still think it is a good idea.