Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Shteven]

One thing that has been going on for some time but wasn't directly mentioned (that I recall) is that Glork has handled all (or nearly all) of guardian's defense over the joke about Glork catching every scum for us. Granted he's involved somewhat, but I find it odd that Glork's taken up Guardian's defense to the point where Guardian barely has to mention it.

As far as a summary of my suspicions go, I still like Albert. After that, I'd go battle mage, although I'm less certain there. At some point, Guardian would be fine also. As for Glork, he's definately trying to steer the crowds, but that's a wifom, both sides obviously want to be followed. I must admit that when glork said the bandwagon on BM was likely to have two scum on it, I agree. So he may come down more on the side of town.

Taking the vote count off page 9 (seemed as good as any) BM's wagon was: Haut Boy, HungryJoe, Guardian. If you want to check other pages for other names, please add them here, it's getting late. Haut is now AutumnEvenings, of course. HJ's been a bit odd, but nothing too anti-town, but this would be enough to FOS him in my book. Guardian would be the worst of those three.

I am not forgetting that my vote is still on albert. I also didn't forget that there was a request for my reasons, although I've listed them before, and I believe more than once. I don't have the time tonight, but I will go back and provide a summary of why I'm on Albert still, but this may take until friday or even saturday. We'll see, end of this week looks busy at work.

I may end up switching soon, but should the bandwagon on albert return, I wouldn't be disappointed. It's certainly dead in the water right now.

[AutumnEvenings]

Umm...still not nearly finished and I'm going to try to present large, organized posts instead of random thoughts, but I'm scared I'll forget this right now:

Glork--you unvoted BattleMage and said you were suspicious of how quickly his wagon had grown. How did you feel about the first wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes by post 56 (when N9V voted him), and how does that make you feel about the current Albert wagon? (It seems to be dying now but you placed the 7th vote (I believe--just going off vote-counts, so it could have been even later) and then got off in your last post.)

[AutumnEvenings]

Editt: that post was horribly unclear. *sigh*

There was an early game wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes. Glork, you said nothing about it at all. However, in post 105 (after the Albert bandwagon had kind of faded away), you unvoted BM because of the speed which his wagon had grown, which, unless I'm wrong, you started in post 63 and it grew to 6 in 100, which is roughly the same amount of posts as the Albert wagon had (because of the rules and such). So...basically, why unvote BM because of a quick wagon, but place the 7th vote on the second wagon on a guy who had already had a speedy wagon himself?

[AutumnEvenings]

Another quick post--Gaurdian, what the hell was going on with 176 ("YB is noob town"), followed by your hard-to-follow (and basically useless) PBPA in 178 (you listed YB as "scum??" several times and then said "I think YB has been pretty town of the four I was suspicious of on page 6"), and wrapped up with 181 ("Albert indeed looks like an ok play, as does YB.").

Could you please clarify to me what you were thinking of Yogurt Bandit at the time of these posts?

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, I've read the game, then re-read it, then looked at some of you in isolation. I've taken extensive notes (I had to--I couldn't keep all y'all straight, especially with the amount of lukers/inactives/very low posters). But at this point I'm flat-out beat and composing proper posts would be beyond me. I have work in about 5 hours and must sleep, but I'll post the rest within 12 hours.

(and yes, I hate myself)

[MrBuddyLee]

Clearly the solution is to call in sick. There's a bug going around, you know.

[YogurtBandit]

Another quick post--Gaurdian, what the hell was going on with 176 ("YB is noob town"), followed by your hard-to-follow (and basically useless) PBPA in 178 (you listed YB as "scum??" several times and then said "I think YB has been pretty town of the four I was suspicious of on page 6"), and wrapped up with 181 ("Albert indeed looks like an ok play, as does YB.").

Could you please clarify to me what you were thinking of Yogurt Bandit at the time of these posts?

I would also like to know, because after 181, somehwere on the last few pages(It might have been the last page, Im not sure) He then said that he tought I was town, and he expected that I thought he was town too.

[Glork]

Editt: that post was horribly unclear. *sigh*

There was an early game wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes. Glork, you said nothing about it at all. However, in post 105 (after the Albert bandwagon had kind of faded away), you unvoted BM because of the speed which his wagon had grown, which, unless I'm wrong, you started in post 63 and it grew to 6 in 100, which is roughly the same amount of posts as the Albert wagon had (because of the rules and such). So...basically, why unvote BM because of a quick wagon, but place the 7th vote on the second wagon on a guy who had already had a speedy wagon himself?

The Albert wagon was entirely random/baseless. Those kinds of wagon can form against any player, and don't ever really amount to anything, usually. So I considered the early Albertwagon a nonfactor. BM's wagon was, as I stated earlier, the first large wagon that actually had a degree of seriousness to it. Though the Albertwagon was indeed at least as fast and large as the BMwagon, its very nature led me to believe that it wasn't nearly as significant.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just checking in so that you know I'm not completely gone. I think the Guardian wagon deserves more votes at the moment.

[YogurtBandit]

Just checking in so that you know I'm not completely gone. I think the Guardian wagon deserves more votes at the moment.

If you think it deserves more votes, Why didnt you vote for it?

Also, Glork, I think at first the Albert Wagon was significant, but then, the way he reacted to himself being bandwagoned gave him more votes. Because if it was completlty baseless, Albert would probably not have as much votes as before.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just checking in so that you know I'm not completely gone. I think the Guardian wagon deserves more votes at the moment.

If you think it deserves more votes, Why didnt you vote for it?

Also, Glork, I think at first the Albert Wagon was significant, but then, the way he reacted to himself being bandwagoned gave him more votes. Because if it was completlty baseless, Albert would probably not have as much votes as before.

See post 346.

[YogurtBandit]

Just checking in so that you know I'm not completely gone. I think the Guardian wagon deserves more votes at the moment.

If you think it deserves more votes, Why didnt you vote for it?

Also, Glork, I think at first the Albert Wagon was significant, but then, the way he reacted to himself being bandwagoned gave him more votes. Because if it was completlty baseless, Albert would probably not have as much votes as before.

See post 346.

Ah right. O.O Never mind then.

[Jack]

unvote.



Vote:shteven

More later. He sounds very appeasing and seems to be putting himself where he can vote for any of the top vote getters.

[Guardian]

Autumn, I don't really want to bother going back and finding the posts, but I think someone asked me a similar question earlier and my answer was and is that at that time I was still in conflict about my thoughts on the players.
I had had some opinions before doing the bpba, but I tried to objectively reconsider them, and one consequence of doing so was that I thought maybe I was misreading YB and he could be scum. I continued to think it over, and now I am getting much more of a neutral/town read on him.

TCS, have you ever, at any time in the game, provided any reason for being suspicious of me, never mind voting for me, never mind wanting a wagon on me? I did a quick re-read of your posts and I could find none whatsoever.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Nope, no particular reason.

[Yosarian2]

Speaking of Albert, I would still like him to answer the question I asked him a few pages ago...

Like I usually do, rather then trying to take copius notes and figure it all out at once, I'm going to respond to stuff as I see it during my re-read.

Was that randomized or were the night actions in ?

Damnit, some of the 2 best players are out...cunning mafia.

Question: This may or may not be relevent to anything, but have you played with either Jdodge or SV or both before? Or if not, did you read through games with them in it?

[Guardian]

Nope, no particular reason.

(shrug)

[Yosarian2]

Nope, no particular reason.

...so, you're on the biggest bandwagon in the game, and are pushing for it to get more votes and go to a lynch, but you don't have any actual reason for suspecting Guardian?

[YogurtBandit]

Nope, no particular reason.

You're Bandwagoning Guardian and Telling pepole to vote him when you dont have a good reason?

Unvote, Vote: TCS

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok.

General Thoughts

(1) There is way, way, way too much lurking/inactivity going on in this game. Not counting the people who've been replaced, the following people need to post more (and with content please!!): Shteven, N9V, and Johhan. Also, MrBuddyLee and Jack, who have more posts but hardly any more content.

(2) There's way too much theory talk and not nearly enough actual game talk.

(3) I'm finding lots of people very hard to get a read on. Some of that is because of low posting, and some of it I just don't know why. This is going to be a difficult game for me, I think.

-------

The Albert Wagon

I didn't like the first one, I didn't like the second one either. It's a bit odd that two have sprung up and then vanished though. I don't like that he claimed at 7 votes (regardless of whether "claiming townie is scummy" or not, claiming instead of defeding yourself is bad play) but I wouldn't call it a scum-tell, just an annoyance. I think the most suspicious thing about him was his opening post (8) and then his next one (11). The weirdest thing was (8) because

while (supposedly) still wondering if the choices were in or randomized

, he called the scum "clever" because of the two kills. That he, in post 11, "decides" the nightkills were done "manually" just makes (8) even weirder.

But that's not why people are voting him, as I understand it. He's being voted for...umm...being wagony and wishy-washy? Which I could accept if more than half the players weren't doing the same exact thing.
----------------------

Which leads me to:

Glork

--darlin, you know I love you, but what the hell? The differences you have between BattleMage and Albert just baffle me. First was the wagon issue. I don't, by the way, accept your answer. I don't see how the first wagon was a non-issue...people were jumping on and giving (usually weak) reasons for doing so. And it happened fast and very soon. There's no sense in just ignoring it. More troubling is that you originally FoSed Albert in 114 (and elaborated in 117) because he decided to jump on the biggest wagon that wasn't him, rather than defending himself. Yes, that's lame and somewhat suspicious, but the troubling thing is,

BattleMage did the exact same thing

in post 96:

hmm, seems logical to move my vote to the scumbag with the largest wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Yogurtbandit

You didn't make any comment on that at all.

Glork, I want to know why you are treating these two players so differently. I'd also like to know why, in post 114, you made lists of people you'd vote, people who you think are pro-town-ish, and people who need to post more, but left out 5 players: me (well, HautBoy), BattleMage, MrBuddyLee,HackerHuck, and Guardian. I know I'm not related to you in anyway and you hadn't actually made any comments on me (I don't think), but you'd had lots of interaction with BM, MBL, and Guardian.

Very, very large

FoS: Glork

--------------
More in a bit--gonna eat. :p Also, if any of you are (evil!) Mac Users, I'll be your best friend forever* if you can teach me how to link to posts.

--
*forever=at least five minutes

[YogurtBandit]

I perfer Hands of Suspicons (

HoS

) over Very very large Fos'es.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, MrBuddyLee and Jack, who have more posts but hardly any more content.

Wow, I couldn't disagree with this more. I'm en fuego this game, so much so in fact that I'll be getting ganked N1. And all but about two of Jack's 25 or so posts have added something relevant to the game, many things I also noticed myself.

[Glork]

AE, the odds that a random Page 1-2 bandwagon ever amounts to *ANYTHING* in a game this size are extraordinarily slim. I realize that it was large and fast, but I can't count on it for anything right now. It was a random bandwagon. It's possible that some newbscum jumped onto it about fourth or fifth or sixth hoping that it would magically turn into a mislynch -- but that is SO INCREDIBLY RARE that in my experience, hardly anybody even bothers trying anymore when they are scum. That's all there is to it, in my mind.

The players that I didn't mention I guess you could have slated as neutral, for some reason or another. Either they've done things that I like and things that I dislike (BM, MBL, Guardian), or they hadn't struck me in any way yet (HautBoy, HackerHuck). I suppose I could have put HH and/or HB on my "needs to post more" list, but I think that they had posted in the prior page, and so I didn't think of them as being lurkers/inactives.

Re: BM/Albert's behavior -- I was already voting for BM, had watched his wagon grow, and had classified his play as "patentedly moronic" by that point. If you look at my Post 93, you will see that I am already frustrated with what I clearly think was bad/stupid play. When taking that into account, BM's vote switch was just an extension of his terrible play. It certainly gave me no incentive to swtich off of him at the time, but it wasn't worth saying "Hey BM, you're stupid!" -- especially after the mod had just warned about personal attacks on the previous page (which is also why I said that BM should "do something about" his play in 93, rather than saying "this is a sign that you're terrible at being pro-town" or something like that).

Re: Your early-post points. I agree with MBL that he and Jack have posted more content than most. Jack is readily taking in-thread notes and giving suspicions of players, and MBL has been fairly active in some of the relevant discussions. I do, however, agree that there's too much inactivity and way too many off-topic/spammy posts and too many general theory discussions.



That said, I'm beginning my own re-read. Time to sift through the dirt and pick out some rich scumnuggets.

[Jack]

AE, with 10 to lynch there will be lots of bandwagoning. A 7 vote bandwagon is the equivilant of 2-vote random wagon in a newbie game.

Glork is seeming less scummy.

I have my doubts about albert,shteven,and guardian. I don't quite remember why at the moment. I also want to look at yogurt.

[YogurtBandit]

Okay, im doing a post by Post Analysis of Random pepoles. First, Who I have my vote on, TCS.( I am bolding things that I find most im portant)

Responding to this by Albert

TCS is good at talking, but his strategy as pro-town is only average, based on the only game I've played with him.

Only average!

I'll show you average:

vote:Albert

Post 50, I didnt exactly understand entirely why Albert insulting him warranted the vote, It could have been a Bandwagon cover up, but It was his first post, so im not that worried about it.

Sigh. Battle Mage, please stop distracting the town from lynching the ACTUAL scum. This is the primary problem with your playstyle. Trying to be unreadable is all fine and good, but acting like bad scum in every game gets tiresome, and is about the most unhelpful thing a townie can be.

Now, can we please cut the crap and lynch Albert? He's clearly the best lynch, unless we want to start metagaming BM by lynching him every day one... which is actually kind of appealing, now that I think of it...

And that's exactly the sort of distraction I'm talking about.

Can we get on, now?

Post 76 This one is a little more intresting. The first paragraph is townie to me. However, the next line is confusing. Again, TCS has done this alot,

joining a Bandwagon, then insisting others vote for it.

He wants a quick lynch, possibly to go back into the night stage. This is supcious.. Then when talking about Metagame lynching Bm, He says it it is "Kind of appealing" after thinking it over. This is also suspect, because at first, he wants to Speedlynch Albert, but then he says, Bm would be okay too. Its almost as if he is saying

"I dont really care who we lynch, as long as we dont lynch me"

Think about it. Its kind of Wishy Washy. But again, only 2nd post. Then he goes back and says its all a distraction. It seems fishy.

lol why the hell would SK-BM be telling the town who to kill AFTER HE IS DEAD.
That makes no sense. also, i never get to be an SK

God that is such a scum tell. :\

(82)Never said why, but It seems pro town.

unvote, vote:Battle Mage

Might as well get it over with today.

(83)Might as well? Thats kind of weird. Again, in 5 POSTS, two votes. Wishy Washy..
(Yes, I did vote for Bm the post after this)

Whinging about never getting a certain power role is typically a sign that you have a power role, usually anti-town.

Maybe I just want you gone. :\

(89)
The first is good, but the second, Im not sure if its Sarcasm or not.

But see, when you pull out arguments like, "I act scummy when I'm town," you're implying that you're town in this game. I just can't stomach that play, even if it's you. Either you're going to have to learn to not make that terrible argument, or I'm going to keep voting for you. It's that simple.

(Regarding Bm) This is a good post, Not much else to say about it.

This is a funny thing to say, but I get nervous when someone claims to get a pro-town read on me. So few people do, it's almost like they have knowledge of my alignment.

123, This is kind of funny. Its fishy in some way. The So few pepole do is just way out there... I think its just a Gut feeling though.

Albert, I know you're "on my side," but I'm not feeling comfortable with you at all at the moment.

Vote: Albert

This vote is probably temporary.

3rd Vote, I didnt realing understand the Not feeling comfortable bit, and then This Vote is temporary, Shows signs of Wishy washiness.

Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Never, ever, ever say a vote is temporary.


So I've heard. Meh.

He treats it like nothing. I also find that Fishy.

Thing is, people don't usually go out of their way to say I'm town. I'm a pretty consistent suspect in these games. For one, it's nice that someone believes me. However, that 'sucking up,' in a sense, combined with some of his other play, merits notice.

Cant think of anything to comment on that, Just looks Diffrent.

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla. FYI.

Hmmmmmm.

FOS: Shteven, FOS: Jack

One of these two is scum... take it to the bank.

That post cringes my stomach. Not the Fos'es, but the Take it to bank. Its like, a pet peeve. its just getting under my skin when I read it. Its like the Godfather saying "Kill so and so". Also, One of these two is scum? the chances that one of them is scum is 5/18 (2/9 W/O Sk) I dont think its something you can actually say Either A or B is scum. I mean, if you took half of the players, it would be a good chance (4/9 that at least one is scum. But you could take any 9 players, and the chances would be the same.

I think this bandwagon could use another member.

unvote, vote: guardian

Jumping

ANOTHER

bandwagon? Very little is said, and no reasoning. 4th Vote of the game, and All 4 have been without much reasoning. Please tell us why you are voting. I mean, if you look, 4 votes, all Bandwagons. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. He has yet to respond to my question on why.

Just checking in so that you know I'm not completely gone. I think the Guardian wagon deserves more votes at the moment.

PUSHING FOR A LYNCH! He did this in his second post! Twice he has pushed for a Bandwagon lynch! That is very scummy. I cant fathom what he did with that post. "Oh just stopping by. By the way, Vote Guardian!"

That was his last post.

Wishy Washy Voting, Pushing for Bandwagons... Hmm. 4 diffrent votes. He did have a couple of Townie posts though. I say he's scum though.