Mini 444 - Reverse Mafia Vanilla (Stopped)

[LoudmouthLee]

I have no discernable link to Yos besides the fact that I know I'm town and I believe that he is town also. I think you're either scummy (which I dont get the vibe of, as you seem to be doing some serious scum hunting), or you're just a wee bit paranoid.

With the blatant lack of information taht we have, coupled with the lack of posting that we have, we are NOT going to be getting any other information UNTIL we revive three players. In order for us to play this game and get information, we need to start reviving people. I put myself up for revival, as I know that I am town. I am feeling pretty good about Yos2, and surprisingly, pretty good about Logicitus.

I feel the three of us would make a good start for the revival train.

[yellowbounder]

Putting yourself up "since you know you are town" isn't a valid reason.

Everyone will say that they know they are town, but only about 66-75% of them will be telling the truth. It's easy to say that you know you are town, in fact, it's basically implied that people consider themselves town, unless they state something to the contrary (ie. I'm a Survivor, or I'm an SK).

I could say: I consider myself town, but there is no guarrantee that I am telling the truth. So, I could say I'm a good candidate for revival because I know I'm town, but everyone would be saying that. Which cancels the whole thing out.

[LoudmouthLee]

There IS no good argument here. I'm curious about the following things about this game.

#1) it's vanilla. we can't have someone say, "Well, I'm a cop. We should promote me." instead, it's based on limited information.

#2) Generally, we (the town) gets information by voting to lynch (a negative result) not voting to revive (positive result). Since there are no reprocussions for the mafia (ie: death), this gives an inherent edge to the mafia.

#3) Since we cannot argue that anyone is WORTH reviving (ahem, how can someone prove their worth while we have NO information?), what do you suppose we do, Yellowbounder? I have already given you bad karma, and I think you're scum, but I want to know, all knowing yellowbounder.

What do you suppose we do now? Are we going to bandwagon to get information? Are we going to do a little mafia rain dance? Are we going to riverdance? Lord of the Dance? Mr. Flatley would be proud.

I, honestly, have no clue how we proceed from here.

[yellowbounder]

I didn't say we could revive anyone, I said we couldn't revive someone based on their statement that they are town. It's not a valid reason for revival.

Point. How can you lynch someone with no information? The lynching process generates the information you require, even if the lynch is of a townie. Obiously, the lack of aligment reveal is going to make it difficult, but the way people act, and do things will influence who is voted for, when the live bench comes into being.

[LoudmouthLee]

Right. But now, we're in DAY 1 (accroding to normal mafia standards), and we have much LESS information than we normally do. I understand that we need to crack some eggs before we get the mafia omelette, but in a proverbial sense..

What statement can one make that would get you to vote them? Hint: There isn't one. Nothing one person can say can make you feel one way or the other! I'm not looking to start an uprising, but the first three days (.25, .50, .75) is dumb and blind luck.

With no reveal and nothing else to help the town, this game is HEAVILY slanted torwards the mafia. I'm a logicial guy. I like it when things flow properly.

They aren't in this game, and they probably won't.

With that, I will be willing to vote for anyone I have NOT given bad karma to.

[yellowbounder]

You can give karma to someone more than once, just not in the same post. Although, I think it would function better if you could only give it once, and the value was either 1, 0 or -1.

[LoudmouthLee]

You can give karma to someone more than once, just not in the same post. Although, I think it would function better if you could only give it once, and the value was either 1, 0 or -1.

:eyebrow:

I said I will ultimatley vote for anyone I did not give Bad Karma to. Was that not clear?

[Yosarian2]

Well, the argument didn't need to differentiate between 1 scum group or 2. Scum are scum for the purpose of this argument, since the comment was directed towards the total number of scum in the game, not how many groups there are.

Well, that's not true for purpose of balance, though; two small scum groups gives the town a much better chance then one big scum group, because of cross-kills and such. And I definatly got the impression from the mod post that we're dealing with one single scum group here:

Mafia: More living mafia than living town players.
Town: Either: all of the pro-town players revived (it is not required that all pro-town players survive after being revived though), half of the total pro-town players alive, or all mafia dead.

I don't think that "mafia" win condition makes any sense if there's more then one scum group, so I'm pretty sure we're just dealing with one scum group here.

But, I did find this, about 1/2 way through the completed games on pg 1 of the Queue thread:

Mini 342 - Mlakerville had 4 scum (2 goons, 1 Godfather, and 1 Mafia Thief), all in the same group,

and

a SK....and the town won.

Wow, that's unusual. What's a "mafia thief", is that like a mafia spy, where the rest of the mafia dosn't know who he is? Because if not that's really unbalanced.

Anyway, I can't imagine how 4 scum could possibly be a balanced setup in this game.

To be clear, I went looking for scummy looking lurkers there; I've always thought that lurkers are very dangerous to the town, and...let's say that my beliefs on that account have recently been confirmed. Especally with the game going so slow, I was hoping to lean on a few lurkers and see if we could get them active, and at the same time I was trying to find scum. MM only made one real content-filled post, which is already a scum tell in my book, and that one post felt scummy to me; the way he just accepted it as a freudian slip when that dosn't make sense is only a small part of that.

Do you disagree with me that that Machivellian Mafia post, where he just goes along with the crowd in denouncing Relph, and then names a third of the people in the game as "giving him good pro-town impressions" looks scummy? Because to me, that whole post looked like he was just trying to go along with the group, and perhaps make some allies if he could by buddying up to all the most active people in the game, without actually willing to vote for anyone to revive or even to explain why any of us were giving him pro-town vibes.

[logicticus]

Mod, can we get some serious prods

Overtheunder hasnt posted yet, probably needs to be replaced

Zindaras and relph havent posted for 2 weeks

MM hasnt posted for 1 week.

Thanks

[Yosarian2]

Very true. If people aren't going to be active now, we need to either get them active or replace them. We're going to be running on so little information this game, we can't afford any lurkers, and unlike a normal game we can't even lynch the lurkers ourselves, so we're really going to rely heavily on mod prods and replacements to keep the game going.

[ChannelDelibird]

Prod-, replacement- and vote-count-related fun will be sorted out by Thursday at the latest, but I have a semi-intensive schedule of exams in the next few days, including an all-dayer tomorrow, in which I am unlikely to be able to do much with mafia. Bear with me, but there will be some serious mod activity very soon.

[Zindaras]

Prod received, content soon.

[Zindaras]

I have to say, you're an odd little man, Lee.

Anyway, my two main candidates for revival are Velly and Yellowbounder. Velly because I think his posting so far is very solid and townish. His points about self-voting for example are quite strong. Yellowbounder because his play is strong and, if my memory is serving me well, pretty much a 180 degree turn from the first Reverse, in which he was very insignificant.

As for you, Leeboy, I like your proactivity (must come in handy at that bachelor party >.> (congrats with that, by the way)), but I'm not all that comfortable with you yet. I still don't see why I should be tripping over myself voting Yossy.

Some decent posts from logictitus. That's about it as far as the good goes. Scopeyboy, get your game together, man. Noone's going to revive you if you act like that. I think Dean's posting is very weak. A lot of non-content posts, which I despise.

I think that's about it. Any specific questions can be asked and will be answered.

Good Karma: Vel-Rahn Koon, Yellowbounder
Bad Karma: DeanWinchester

[yellowbounder]

[quote="Zindaras]pretty much a 180 degree turn from the first Reverse, in which he was very insignificant.[/quote]

Insignificant? You flatter me. I made like two posts, and then was replaced. Insignificant doesn't even cover it.

[Zindaras]

Oh, yes, you're right. Your avatar confuses me. I think chaotic_diablo at that time also had a planet avatar.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I'm having a hard time making the switch in my mind from voting for people because they are scummy to vote for people because they look the most pro-town. I'm usually better at this when there are corpses spread among the floor, but I'm going to try nonetheless.

All-in-All, I'm having most faith in Logisticus now (as in, being town). The way he posts seems most townie so far, without any rush, hasted agressiveness, and some very decent points.

Loudmouthlee, as it's name presents, seems to be a bit to agressive on all what happens. I'm having my doubts about whether this would be a way to mislead us to believe he tries to do good for the town, just by posting very frequently. For now, I wouldn't like to take the risk. Also, the way he reacted early game towards Relph seems scummy in my eyes, as he felt sorry for not attacking him heavier immediatly, which he does in his second post.

Vel-Rahn koon gives me good vibes. He would be my second choice as for revival. the things he posted so far have been things I can agree on.

Yosarian2... the things that happened around him early game, combined with the way he posts don't give me faith in his revival. To me, he's being more agressive to the bad karma's while we instead should focus towards the good (a.k.a. voting). Also, the fact that he got votes so quickly makes me a bit hesistant to revive him (yet)

yellowbounder gives me mixed feelings. My gut is telling me he is scum trying to act as a townie. He's really trying to breeze the game to life with discussion points and stuff. On the other hand, the way he shouts that he's a townie and asks votecounts pretty frequent at this stage of the game is something my scumalarm doesn't like. The way he takes care of this game so far hasn't really given me a calm feeling.

Zindaras hasn't been acting the townie way I'm used from him. For now, I'm not in for reviving him right now, as the posts he made have not made my opinion clear on him yet.

Deadwinchester leaves me blank so far. As I've never played a game with him, I don't know how he usually plays, but the way I see it so far, he likes to lean on the gas pannel. So far, undecided.

johhan smells scummy. He's mainly joining the crowd mostly. Not my n1 revival patient, by far not.

Relph seems to me like a target the scum wanted to give little credit. The way I see it, he is a townie where the scum puked over so they have one townie less to care about. Make him as scummy as hell about one argument, so he won't be a revival candidate.

Machiavellian-Mafia has posted to less. Same for OvertheUnder.

Good Karma: Logisticus

Scopeyboy, get your game together, man. Noone's going to revive you if you act like that.

I don't think my priority lies in ressurecting myself, but reviving townies in general.

That's it for now. I hope my opinion so far is clear enough for the others.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]
Yosarian2... the things that happened around him early game, combined with the way he posts don't give me faith in his revival. To me, he's being more agressive to the bad karma's while we instead should focus towards the good (a.k.a. voting). Also, the fact that he got votes so quickly makes me a bit hesistant to revive him (yet).[/quote]

Just trying to keep the game moving her by creating content. And I think bad karma is just as important as good karma; if the town's going to win this game, depending on how it plays out, we might have to revive all the townspeople in order to win; in that case, we will need to try and figure out who the scum are in order to revive everyone else. So trying to figure out who the scum are is, in the long-term anyway, just as important in this game as it would be in any other game.

Besides, bad karma will help us figure out to revive, at least by process of elimination.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I think bad karma on day 1 has no relevance yet. The fact that we have not revived yet means the karma's mean very little so far.

[ChannelDelibird]

Patrick replaces OverTheUnder.

[Patrick]

Hi guys. Will read up now and see what's been happening.

[yellowbounder]

If Karma is permament, beyond the Day/Night cycles, then it could have use today.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I think bad karma on day 1 has no relevance yet. The fact that we have not revived yet means the karma's mean very little so far.[/quote]

Why is that? I think it's very important to keep track, right from the start of the game, who we find scummy and why. I often find my day 1 instints on who is scum are pretty good, and so if we talk about who we find scummy now, it will definatly help us figure out who to revive and who not to revive both today and over the course of the game. Not only that, but the only way we're going to figure out alignments is through player interaction, and a major part of player interaction is attacking and defending people; even without lynches, we can and should still attack and defend.

If a pro-town player things he sees something that looks suspicious, why shouldn't he say so? If we didn't have karma, I'd just use FOS's instead, but Karma's even better because we have the added advantage of the mod keeping a karma count to help us see what the majority of the town thinks at any given point of any given day.

[Patrick]

Ok. Not a huge amount of stuff to work with here.

LoudmouthLee starts off strong, but seems to be be making alot of sweeping statements. Like many people have said, he seems happy to say Yosarian is probably town based on very little. I don't actually have an issue with Yosarian here but I think he could likely post everything he's posted so far as equally as town or scum. Some people have thrown out the idea that they are linked. It's possible, but that would be a very bold attempt to strongarm the town and pick up an early win. If anything I'd say it's more likely LeeScum could be buddying up to YosTown to try and get himself revived later on.

I agree with most stuff Zindaras is saying actually, but he hasn't said a great deal.

I quite like logicticus and Vel Ran Koon's comments (random sidenote - I was in Mlakerville as town. Mlaker doesn't have a great sense of balance IMO.)

I'd like to ask Lee whether he still thinks Relph's thing about 4 people having information was a freudian slip. My own opinion is that 4 scum seems very unlikely. I haven't read the entire first game yet, but I know it had 3 scum and the town had poweroles and the town still lost anyway. Taking away our poweroles and adding one extra scum? I doubt it.

I get mixed vibes from DeanWinchester; on the one hand he feels a bit like last time I played with him, where he was scum and was generally a big nonfactor in everything, but a couple of things he said felt townish. I think his concern about Lee and Yosarian working together felt genuine, and this:

Maybe we should start talking about who we don't want to vote for and why we don't want to vote for that person.

Already pointed out by VRK.
I don't like his 7th post though because it looks like all of it was posting to look like he was adding something when he wasn't in fact adding anything at all.

M-M has been utterly useless so far, as he seems to be whenever I play with him. Prod hard or replace.

I'll go with a

Vote: Zindaras

at this point because his thoughts when he posted seemed to jive alot with my own. The people I've commented on are the ones that stuck out, not everyone did. I'm also going to think a bit about how scum might try to play in a game like this and whether they'd be any differences.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I think bad karma on day 1 has no relevance yet. The fact that we have not revived yet means the karma's mean very little so far.[/quote]

Why is that? I think it's very important to keep track, right from the start of the game, who we find scummy and why. I often find my day 1 instints on who is scum are pretty good, and so if we talk about who we find scummy now, it will definatly help us figure out who to revive and who not to revive both today and over the course of the game. Not only that, but the only way we're going to figure out alignments is through player interaction, and a major part of player interaction is attacking and defending people; even without lynches, we can and should still attack and defend.

If a pro-town player things he sees something that looks suspicious, why shouldn't he say so? If we didn't have karma, I'd just use FOS's instead, but Karma's even better because we have the added advantage of the mod keeping a karma count to help us see what the majority of the town thinks at any given point of any given day.[/quote]Excuse me for my tunnel vision. I was looking from the revival point of view, not from the player linking to player point of view. In that point of view, it does make more sense to do so.

[Yosarian2]

I don't actually have an issue with Yosarian here but I think he could likely post everything he's posted so far as equally as town or scum.

Fair enough. I think the same could be said about pretty much everyone in this game though.

If anything I'd say it's more likely LeeScum could be buddying up to YosTown to try and get himself revived later on.

Now that is possible. I have not had any luck reading Lee's alignment in past games, and I could see him acting this way as scum.

I'd like to ask Lee whether he still thinks Relph's thing about 4 people having information was a freudian slip. My own opinion is that 4 scum seems very unlikely. I haven't read the entire first game yet, but I know it had 3 scum and the town had poweroles and the town still lost anyway. Taking away our poweroles and adding one extra scum? I doubt it.

Truth.