Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[Gemini Blind]

@Mod: I'm not certain but from the looks of your vote count it appears you have StrangerCoug voting twice... It looks like they unvoted Elyse in 428

-Jelly

[Elyse]

@Nacho
I am voting Peregrine because

- he did not have much content at all early on, and did not even engage in setup spec - instead he talked about horoscopes

OK, Nacho, you can might be town. For now.

unless there are cults, my towniness is here to stay
additionally, you aren't voting salamence with us

Meh. Just for you. For now.

Vote: Salamaence20

- the "for now"s in both of these posts make his reads less concrete and easier to change later if necessary.
- he says setup spec is protown but doesn't engage in it
- has several naked votes (ToastyToast, dryfit, me) - the votes seem to have reasoning he provides later on, but the timing is always wacky and it's almost as if he's strategically placing his votes to have no impact
- his reasons for his votes are pretty bad (voting toasty because he didn't post, voting dry fit for "objecting" to his vote on a null read, voting me because ??? after SC hopped off my wagon)

I think Iec's post was scum-motivated because he only said it to look good - he didn't follow his own rule of stopping discussion about it.

As far as the Sala wagon goes - I don't love it, but deadline is in two days and Sala has apparently siteflaked (?) I think so either we wait for the mod to get a replacement and potentially lynch him right away (not cool), or we lynch him without a claim.

Or we lynch PV

[Iecerint]

Why the hell is everyone saying they think I'm scum while not voting for me? It's super awkward.

I went back to check my wagon status and I think I literally have 0 votes.

[RedCoyote]

VC has been fixed. Still looking for a Sal replacement; deadline will be suspended if necessary.

Pisces' Daily Horoscope:

It might feel like there's a hole in your heart today, Pisces, and you could have a hard time filling it. Remember that you're the one responsible for making sure this void is taken care of. If you insist that someone else fill the gap, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Do something nice for yourself and feel free to spend a little money to make yourself happy.

---

Vote Count 1 - 14

• Salamence20 (4) ( Dry-fit - ToastyToast -
  Gemini Blind
  - Nachomamma8 - StrangerCoug)
  
  PeregrineV (2) ( Salamence20 - Elyse)
  Elyse (2) ( Xayzeck - PeregrineV)
  Aronis (1) ( CrashTextDummie)
  ToastyToast (1) ( Iecerint)
  
  Not Voting (2) ( Aronis - Gemini Blind)

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-13 15:35:00)

[Iecerint]

See? Literally zero votes.

[Iecerint]

I said to stop going on about it because it narrows down the daykiller identity, which is either benign or allows scum to interfere with it.

[ToastyToast]

Good luck Toasty! Let us know how it goes!

I got the job!!

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Is this the first time you have suspected Iecerint in the game? It seems kind of out of nowhere. For some reason I thought you were town reading him.

I am willing to compromise on Iecerint, I suppose.

Nacho, I do agree that PerV's scum meta is to lay low, but I don't really think he's put himself out there as much as you say he is.

I do agree that he's put himself out less than he normally does as town.
But I can't help but think part of the reason he's doing so less than normal is because of the slow pace of the game.
Him not putting himself out to the degree I'd like is also the reason he's leaning town as opposed to reading town.

I would be a pretty happy camper if you voted Iec!

Well earlier I asked PerV if he usually starts slow in games at the beginning, as it is something I've noticed in a lot of his games. PereV is more of a late-game player, so with regards to scum meta its if he never has a real *lightbulb* moment and starts going after people that he's suspicious. I don't think he's ever a good lynch D1.

Additionally, I feel his reasons for sticking on the WP wagon are worse than Elyse's not having any reads: he originally voted the wagon because WP voted Xay in the RVS and it's stayed there for that reason the entire day. I feel if Iec was town and he had a read strong enough to encourage him to pursue it for the entire day he would be much more invested in developing and explaining it, but he's shown no inclination towards anything of the sort here.

You can add the fact that he thinks I'm anti-town for things that can be boiled down to my play-style (as a reason there is a vote on me from him still).

I think Xayzeck is active lurking. +scumpoints.

what do you think

what useful answers can come out of that question, because I can't think of any.

why do i have a problem with people townreading you?

well, if you listen to a song, and you think it's garbage, but someone else thinks it's good, wouldn't it be normal to ask WHY he thinks it's good? because that's like the exact same thing that's happening right now

Like there was more he could've responded to than this.

cue him actually making a long response...
But I do think Elyse-Xayzeck has at least one scum. It just seems...fake? Between Xay's analogies and Elyse's "I'm feeling so attacked right now and I just came here to have a good time" posting, I'm left wondering what they are even arguing over.

I don't think it's particularly alarming that he has a scumread on me, if that's why you're asking me in particular. I've been kinda lurky in this game of late. I dunno if this is really a reliable scumtell for me, but I don't expect people to townread me particularly.

Are you planning on doing something to change this, or...?

Really I don't know why Sal isn't the lead wagon at this point. Nothing he's done looks townie and he's done several scummy things.

Agreed. I feel like people are moving to other options because he's lurking and just got prodded...but that isn't a reason to stop pushing someone.

@Gemini: What is your read on nacho currently?

- his reasons for his votes are pretty bad (voting toasty because he didn't post, voting dry fit for "objecting" to his vote on a null read, voting me because ??? after SC hopped off my wagon)

I think I've already explained why voting me was actually more pro-town...I replaced in, promised to catch up, then disappeared for 3 days. I mean...

Currently,

Scum: Salamance, Xay/Elyse (honestly I could see them both being scum)
Leaning scum: Iecerint, Gemini (his recent post was good though)
Null: Aronis, StrangerCoug, CTD
Leaning Town: PeregrineV
Town: Nachomamma, Dry-fit

[Iecerint]

@ TT - I think I should be obvier town by now, so I suppose so.

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?

lol I've been focusing most of my efforts on this Elyse thing that I've paid less attention to the other slots.

Ice is the only other scumread I can remember, I don't recall being fond of the Sala wagon really, even though that seems to be a pretty big thing.

[Xayzeck]

I think Xayzeck is active lurking. +scumpoints.

Am i?

[Xayzeck]

But I do think Elyse-Xayzeck has at least one scum. It just seems...fake? Between Xay's analogies and Elyse's "I'm feeling so attacked right now and I just came here to have a good time" posting, I'm left wondering what they are even arguing over.

There's not really much arguing, it's just me pushing my scumread.

What do you feel is fake?

[Xayzeck]

See? Literally zero votes.

Do you want votes?

Because I'm pretty sure that could happen.

[StrangerCoug]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Is this the first time you have suspected Iecerint in the game? It seems kind of out of nowhere. For some reason I thought you were town reading him.

It is, but read the conversation Iecerint and I had. It's not "out of nowhere."

[Iecerint]

See? Literally zero votes.

Do you want votes?

Because I'm pretty sure that could happen.

Nice total lack of votes you've got there.

Be a shame if something were to happen to it.

[PeregrineV]

@Nacho
I am voting Peregrine because

- he did not have much content at all early on, and did not even engage in setup spec - instead he talked about horoscopes

Yes, they fascinate me because while any horoscope can pretty much apply to anyone, each person is able to internalize "their" horoscope to some degree, which then causes the mind to accept other parts as equally as relevant even when there would be no rational reason to otherwise.

OK, Nacho, you can might be town. For now.

unless there are cults, my towniness is here to stay
additionally, you aren't voting salamence with us

Meh. Just for you. For now.

Vote: Salamaence20

- the "for now"s in both of these posts make his reads less concrete and easier to change later if necessary.

Yes.

- he says setup spec is protown but doesn't engage in it

Which part? Overall I think 9:3. The dayvig?

either of the 2 ideas (extra lynch, or shoot at will) are fine

Something else?

- has several naked votes (ToastyToast, dryfit, me) - the votes seem to have reasoning he provides later on, but the timing is always wacky and it's almost as if he's strategically placing his votes to have no impact

Guess I'm wacky then. People dislike it just as much when I even up competing wagons to see how they go.

- his reasons for his votes are pretty bad (voting toasty because he didn't post, voting dry fit for "objecting" to his vote on a null read, voting me because ??? after SC hopped off my wagon)

Subjective, but OK.

Or we lynch PV

Or Elyse

[Dry-fit]

Dry-fit (or really any pro-Salamence):

Really I don't know why Sal isn't the lead wagon at this point. Nothing he's done looks townie and he's done several scummy things.

Forgive my laziness, but are they enumerated anywhere?

1. The setup discussion stuff. Of course many people disagree with this but I believe focusing primarily on setup stuff at the start in the game is more likely to come from scum. If you look at Sal's early posts that's almost all there was.
2. His next series of posts is almost all defending himself. He has a couple lines about not liking the way PV and Xay got on his wagon but that's really it for scumhunting.
3. He calls himself pro-town for helping end RVS, but I don't really see that from him. Yes his actions led to suspicion on him which moved the game forward but in general setup spec doesn't get the game moving. in fact he hasn't made advancing the game a priority at all either in RVS or afterward.
4. Eagerness to jump on PV for vote hopping:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

This was at a time when PV was an emerging counterwagon to Sal. This looks like opportunism to me.
5. I challenge anyone to point to a single post of Salamence's that makes him look town. I can point to town-looking posts from pretty much every other player but not for him.

[Gemini Blind]

My comp just crashed in the middle of a big post so these next few are coming piece by piece.

Why the hell is everyone saying they think I'm scum while not voting for me? It's super awkward.

If I had a top 10 list of pet peeves from mafia players, this would be on it.

~STD

[Gemini Blind]

@Gemini: What is your read on nacho currently?

Nacho seems to be kicking up dust and hiding behind it. I don't really have time to go into tremendous detail, and I don't think I can come up with a convincing argument to break people's townreads of nacho. I think it is entirely possible that nacho is scum (but even I'm not convinced of that at this point).

I think the case on Iecerint was pretty poor and I think nacho was trying to generate hype for a lynch in a game where a lull had occured. Nacho could be scum hiding in plain sight.

I don't know how Jelly feels about Nacho. I'd probably place my vote on nacho, look for more evidence, and decide if I like it there for now...if the deadline weren't 2 days away.

~STD

[Gemini Blind]

Ice is the only other scumread I can remember, I don't recall being fond of the Sala wagon really, even though that seems to be a pretty big thing.

Do you ever say why? (and if not, why?)

~STD

[Gemini Blind]

1. The setup discussion stuff. Of course many people disagree with this but I believe focusing primarily on setup stuff at the start in the game is more likely to come from scum. If you look at Sal's early posts that's almost all there was.
2. His next series of posts is almost all defending himself. He has a couple lines about not liking the way PV and Xay got on his wagon but that's really it for scumhunting.
3. He calls himself pro-town for helping end RVS, but I don't really see that from him. Yes his actions led to suspicion on him which moved the game forward but in general setup spec doesn't get the game moving. in fact he hasn't made advancing the game a priority at all either in RVS or afterward.
4. Eagerness to jump on PV for vote hopping:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

This was at a time when PV was an emerging counterwagon to Sal. This looks like opportunism to me.
5. I challenge anyone to point to a single post of Salamence's that makes him look town. I can point to town-looking posts from pretty much every other player but not for him.

1 and 2 aren't really scum tells for me.

3 is just kind of silly on his part. It seems more likely a thing that the town would latch onto and call suspicious...a false scumtell if you will.

4 is legit, though on its own it proves little.

5

Spoiler:

I would say some of his early speculation posts, though I suppose you disagree, is in an effort to help the town, not control the dayvig.

I also think 170 seems pretty genuine. I think the reads are fair.

5 is pretty subjective though, so it is what it is.

~STD

[Gemini Blind]

I don't plan or particularly want to vote Salamence. I'll let Jelly vote Salamence if he wants, though.

I'd rather lynch Xayzeck, PeregrineV, Nacho, and maybe, just maybe CTD or Aronis at this point. Still thinking about exactly where to put my vote though. I almost voted PeregrineV then talked myself out of it. Arg I need to get back to work. I'll vote later tonight maybe, or Jelly can.

~STD

[StrangerCoug]

Nice total lack of votes you've got there.

Be a shame if something were to happen to it.

What is the point of this threat? All you're doing here is fear-mongering and telling us jack about why Xayzeck is scum. It's the exact same thing you did with me.

[Elyse]

Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?

lol I've been focusing most of my efforts on this Elyse thing that I've paid less attention to the other slots.

Ice is the only other scumread I can remember, I don't recall being fond of the Sala wagon really, even though that seems to be a pretty big thing.

This is a problem.

@PV
Ok? Your responses don't make me question my read at all.

@Toasty
I don't see how I'm saying "I'm feeling attacked and just want to be here to have fun." Xayzeck isn't attacking me on a personal level - I just found his tunnel on me strange because it's so focused and intense (so much that he doesn't remember his reads on anyone else???) when there's almost nothing to back it up.

[Xayzeck]

Do you ever say why? (and if not, why?)

I've said why I scumread Elyse, haven't I?

I also said I've ended up putting most of my efforts on to Elyse, so I haven't been paying attention to other slots. I recall scumreading Ice, I don't recall why. I'm willing to guess that it's because most of the playerlist though he was scum, and not something I discovered purely on my own. Like the reads of others influenced my read on him, almost.

For Sala, the wagon built up on his dayvig talk, which I thought was kinda dumb, and the wagon's been up ever since, but I'm not sure if he's done anything scummy since the dayvig talk, which I honestly don't think was worth a wagon. What I do have a problem with, and that I can remember, is how he bragged about getting out of RVS, but I see that more likely coming from town that scum almost.

Why didn't I say all of this before? Because most of this is outdated lol

[Xayzeck]

This is a problem.

Why?