Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Thesp]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason unless you don't think the person is scum.

This is wrong. This is a rationalizing justification for lynching someone despite not thinking they are the ideal lynch. If you think they're the ideal lynch, you wouldn't need this argument.

This post has no relevance to proving that it's a bad reason.

While you

might

be able to make a case that it's not a good or bad reason, I think the fact that you're trying to justify an argument with a reason that doesn't necessarily progress the argument, but looks good, disturbs me. It's a dangerous rationalization used to progress a bad agenda.

I can't read Fritz for beans. If he had to put on the list, he would be on the bottom, simply because I would consider him an essentially "random" execution, whereas these three I think are significantly more likely than the average player to be scum.

Do you think significant pressure should be brought on Fritzler? If so, how? If not, why?

[Thok]

Still pondering that deadline.

Official vote count

King Zindaras (2):

Fritzler, VitaminR

List of Execution:

SV, VitaminR

Cavane (2):
Cogito Ergo Sum (0):
Fritzler (2):
KaleiÐoscøpe (0): mnowax, Fritzler, Zindaras
Lowell (1):
Mastermind of Sin (4):
mnowax (3): (MOS)
petroleumjelly (1): mnowax, SV, VitaminR
RafK (0): Yosarian2, SV
spectrumvoid (6): MOS, Fritzler
ThAdmiral (0):
Thesp (0): MOS, SV, Cavane, Zindaras
Toaster Strudel (0): MOS, SV, Cavane, VitaminR, mnowax
VitaminR (3): SV, PetroleumJelly
Yosarian2 (1): Lowell

[Cavane]

I haven't played with Fritz before, but I have seen a few of his games. As I recall, he doesn't really respond to pressure.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason unless you don't think the person is scum.

This is wrong. This is a rationalizing justification for lynching someone despite not thinking they are the ideal lynch. If you think they're the ideal lynch, you wouldn't need this argument.

This post has no relevance to proving that it's a bad reason.

While you

might

be able to make a case that it's not a good or bad reason, I think the fact that you're trying to justify an argument with a reason that doesn't necessarily progress the argument, but looks good, disturbs me. It's a dangerous rationalization used to progress a bad agenda.

In english, please? Can you reference

which

argument and

which

reason you are referring to, and

why

it doesn't progress said argument? I can't tell what you are talking about.

[RafK]

I might be up for a TS execution after SV. Worth doing up a case tomorrow, certainly.

Not going to scream for an instant execution, but I do think we need Zindy to say something, as no-one's really seeing fit to say anything new.

[VitaminR]

I greatly prefer a SV execution at the moment, but that seems obvious.

I'd like to hear from Zindy.

[Thok]

I have prodded Zindaras.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks.

[mnowax]

im up for SV

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why? Would you like to actually contribute something to the game, mnowax?

[mnowax]

you mean youre not dead yet?

Vote: M o S

Come on man meaningful posts? Nothing to say here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ROFL...I'm...speechless...lmfao

[RafK]

It's a dangerous thing to do, but I have the second coming of mnowax down as being too obviously terrible/scummy to be scum :/

[Thesp]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason unless you don't think the person is scum.

This is wrong. This is a rationalizing justification for lynching someone despite not thinking they are the ideal lynch. If you think they're the ideal lynch, you wouldn't need this argument.

This post has no relevance to proving that it's a bad reason.

While you

might

be able to make a case that it's not a good or bad reason, I think the fact that you're trying to justify an argument with a reason that doesn't necessarily progress the argument, but looks good, disturbs me. It's a dangerous rationalization used to progress a bad agenda.

In english, please? Can you reference

which

argument and

which

reason you are referring to, and

why

it doesn't progress said argument? I can't tell what you are talking about.

The original troubling argument you made was that lynching one player (spectrumvoid) over another would give more information, and makes spectrumvoid a better lynch. (I could use the whole, "if you were reading carefully you'd know this" line you seem to be fond of, but I'd rather delineate it.) Let's call this

Argument A

. You used

Argument A

to suggest it's the reason we should lynch spectrumvoid over other lynch candidates. I suggested that

Argument A

was flawed and problematic. You disagreed, asserting I had not shown

Argument A

to be a

bad

argument. I conceded that you while you may not agree it's a bad argument, you can't show it's a worthwhile one, it is at best a null argument.

Argument A

isn't ever ever ever a good justification. It is a post hoc rationalization used to try and sway fence-sitters. If spectrumvoid is worth lynching, she's worth lynching whether or not

Argument A

obtains.

English enough?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yup, I just wanted to make sure what you were referring to.

I agree that Spectrumvoid is worth lynching. However, so is Fritzler. I don't see why it's a bad reason to use the amount of information gained from lynching them as a deciding factor to choose between them.

[RafK]

MoS talks sense. Although I also think that SV is worth lynching more than Fritzler just because I can identify definite scummy things she did, whereas for Fritzler it's more a case of flying under the radar a bit much, which isn't quite as high on my list (the same arguments apply to people like TS and KScope).

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Well, you're not going to lynch someone for information, you're going to lynch someone because you think they are scum. I don't think someone is more lynchworthy because they may or may not connected themselves to other players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are you completely ignoring the point?

[Zindaras]

I had a project I had to work on.

I don't follow you here. Why?

It's a really easy argument to make.

Essentially, an LoE is intangible, irrelevant.

Oh yes, the LoE is a useful little thing.

???

An LoE provides focus. Therefore, it is useful. However, it is an intangible thing. Like a concept (honour, justice) it has only the meaning we give to it. In pure game terms, an LoE says nothing.

I'd like Vitty and Voidybuns to claim. I'm getting to decision time.

Also,

slap in the face: Toaster Strudel

.

We probably would be at a lot less than 98 pages if everyone weren't whining about a bloody execution every day.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Why are you completely ignoring the point?

Because I'm selfish that way?

Seriously though, I find lynching someone over someone else because of the information we get because of it a bad idea. In all cases, this would prevent lynches of players who do not post very frequently, while the chance of someone being scum is equal against that of someone else.

[Cavane]

Nobody said lynch

only

for information. I don't understand why you seem to think that how much information is derived from a lynch should not be part of the consideration. As I said, it's not the only factor, but it's not an invalid one, either.

[RafK]

Especially in a game with even less ways than usual to establish if someone is scum or town (not even voting records, really). The "Lights Out" style game establishes rather well that it can be worth allowing the scum to make a kill in exchange for information, so getting information by executing a likely scum seems to be a no-brainer to me.

As I've said over and over, SV is probably scum, and if SV dies and comes up scum we have a great starting point for discussion tomorrow. But if SV dies and comes up town, we still have that great starting point for discussion. We're still in with a chance both ways. Even if I thought Fritzler was equally as scummy as SV (which I don't), we wouldn't have much to go on tomorrow if he died and came up town. Which makes SV the much better play for winning the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

:goodposting by Cavane and RafK:

[Thesp]

Nobody said lynch

only

for information. I don't understand why you seem to think that how much information is derived from a lynch should not be part of the consideration. As I said, it's not the only factor, but it's not an invalid one, either.

No, it's still a crap reason. If Fritzler is lynched, I think we still gain a lot of information. "Lynchign for information" is a rationalization - we'll get info either way. I'm a little surprised there aren't more people calling to get serious pressure on Fritzler - if he's really equally as scummy as spectrumvoid, we could put some pressure on him and get more information from him. Heck, I think we're getting information on him right now in this discussion.

[VitaminR]

I'd like Vitty and Voidybuns to claim. I'm getting to decision time.

...