Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Gemini's Daily Horoscope:

Creative inspiration could come from either your own past or from history, Gemini. You might want to try painting, music, or poetry, but today it's more likely that you'll turn that inspiration toward your home. If you're planning to refurnish or redecorate, this is the day to start. Your taste and aesthetic sense are operating at a high level.

---

Vote Count 1 - 12

• PeregrineV (2) ( Salamence20 - Elyse -
  Gemini Blind
  -
  Aronis
  )
  Elyse (2) ( StrangerCoug - Xayzeck)
  Salamence20 (2) ( Dry-fit - ToastyToast)
  Aronis (2) ( CrashTextDummie - Gemini Blind)
  
  ToastyToast (1) ( Iecerint)
  Dry-fit (1) ( PeregrineV)
  Iecerint (1) ( Nachomamma8)
  
  Not Voting (1) ( Aronis)

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-13 15:35:00)

[ToastyToast]

Then let's start compromising instead of just sitting around waiting for something to happen. I have a townread on Salamence. Do you have a townread on Iecerint?

No. he's leaning scum for me because he seems to be attacking people without reason.

[Aronis]

Im just not that confident in my scumreads atm.

[Gemini Blind]

@ Aronis are you less confident in your reads than your initial reads from before? (like have things changed) If so what has changed your mind on them?
Particularly PV since you've unvoted him. Is there a reason you find him less scummy than before? (If that's the case)

[Gemini Blind]

-Rolls

[Nachomamma8]

I am willing to compromise on Iecerint, I suppose.

Nacho, I do agree that PerV's scum meta is to lay low, but I don't really think he's put himself out there as much as you say he is.

I do agree that he's put himself out less than he normally does as town.
But I can't help but think part of the reason he's doing so less than normal is because of the slow pace of the game.
Him not putting himself out to the degree I'd like is also the reason he's leaning town as opposed to reading town.

I would be a pretty happy camper if you voted Iec!

[Nachomamma8]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

[StrangerCoug]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

I'm questioning whether

ANYBODY

will get lynched today at this rate. I'm willing to give Iecerint the rope for his behavior but changing my vote right now simply changes who's tied for the most votes. Convince me that Elyse is town and I'll switch.

[Aronis]

@ Aronis are you less confident in your reads than your initial reads from before? (like have things changed) If so what has changed your mind on them?
Particularly PV since you've unvoted him. Is there a reason you find him less scummy than before? (If that's the case)

Not particularly. Im just not getting strong scum-vibes from anyone.

[Nachomamma8]

Then sheep a townread!

[Nachomamma8]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

I'm questioning whether

ANYBODY

will get lynched today at this rate. I'm willing to give Iecerint the rope for his behavior but changing my vote right now simply changes who's tied for the most votes. Convince me that Elyse is town and I'll switch.

I'm unhappy selling you on Elyse-town because I am not completely sold on Elyse-town.
I'm much happier writing up a case on Iecerint.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote; Vote: Witness Protection

Xayzeck is town.

I have been operating under the assumption that Juls's daykill is false, though I had already noticed the "fortunate" event. I do not think Juls would use an actual daykill that poorly. If it does end up being real, I suppose it increases the chance that she is scum, since her having the daykill is just random and has no balance considerations, but scum need an excuse to use the daykill in a hard-to-scrutinize way, but I can understand my first post being a way to justify that (e.g., because overexplained RVS votes are scummy, but in my case I think about FFT whenever I see Zodiac stuff so it's a unique situation). So in other words there is at least some way to account for it if she's scum maybe.

I was going to say that Elyse was unnatural for disliking my "reaction," but then also voting for Xayzeck for voting me subsequent to it, but I realize while in the process of re-quoting her that it was Xayzeck that she thought was unnatural, so nevermind there.

I find the argument Iecerint sets up here strange. He says that scum-Juls needs an excuse to use the daykill in a "hard to scrutinize way" and maybe his first post being a little awkward is a reason for that, which I find a strange argument to use because shooting someone after they've posted one time isn't "hard to scrutinize" at all and would likely be treated the same way as someone who shot someone randomly out of the gate before any posts. I think that this awkwardness came out as a result of Iecerint not sure how to react to the probably fake daykill: I admit this point in particular is not very strong because I only expect town!Iecerint to behave differently to something like this because of a few small data points and a lot of extrapolations but this argument seems to lack both emotion and logic which is strange for Iec.

Additionally, I feel his reasons for sticking on the WP wagon are worse than Elyse's not having any reads: he originally voted the wagon because WP voted Xay in the RVS and it's stayed there for that reason the entire day. I feel if Iec was town and he had a read strong enough to encourage him to pursue it for the entire day he would be much more invested in developing and explaining it, but he's shown no inclination towards anything of the sort here.

[Xayzeck]

what do you think

what useful answers can come out of that question, because I can't think of any.

why do i have a problem with people townreading you?

well, if you listen to a song, and you think it's garbage, but someone else thinks it's good, wouldn't it be normal to ask WHY he thinks it's good? because that's like the exact same thing that's happening right now

[Xayzeck]

what do you think

6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling.

Elab?

I said her lack of direction can be 'troubling'. I didn't say it is scummy, I didn't say it isn't. In my opinion her hesitance shows caution, which is good for the town, especially at first. But if she continues along that path forever and doesn't take more solid stances on subjects, it shows she is keeping all options open, which is scummy. So she's a slight town read at this point.

I never said anything about her lack of direction being alignment indicative, but since you said it was so, why bother putting it in at all?

Why would caution be good for town early game? It makes more sense for town to be cautious late game, no?

[Elyse]

Why didn't you just say that the first time? I genuinely wondered if you thought I was kidding.

It's not like I asked some asinine question...and is your read on me strong enough to compare me to garbage music? Like I don't understand the vitriol with which you are acting toward me and your scumread on me. It just seems over the top when your case boils down to...actually I don't know. Your vote was out of the blue.

Why are you voting me?

[Xayzeck]

Why didn't you just say that the first time? I genuinely wondered if you thought I was kidding.

Because it was a dumb question, did you expect me to take it seriously?

It's not like I asked some asinine question...and is your read on me strong enough to compare me to garbage music?

Garbage music was just the analogy for scumreading someone. What's your point?

Like I don't understand the vitriol with which you are acting toward me and your scumread on me.

I don't see what there is to understand? I scumread you, and I don't know why people are townreading you, so I ask them. It's that simple, I don't even know why you bothered to ask why I questioned others' townreads on you in the first place.

It just seems over the top when your case boils down to...actually I don't know.

That isn't my fault, I feel like I've made my reasons quite clear.

Your vote was out of the blue.

Not true.

Why are you voting me?

Why can't you check my ISO and find out?

Because really, most of my ISO has been focused on you, everything I have a problem with I have already brought up, and often, if not always, I have been met with unsatisfactory answers.

But I'll link them out for you because you'll just end up asking me for specific posts
59 63 the wagon entry and what not
65 self explanatory
203 "townvibes" but later on below it's scummy if i were newbscum. i don't get it
211 212 this particular question had a great response
218 227 I ask where the hyperdefensiveness it was, it was everywhere apparently. Ok, that's cool, was it indicative? Well, according to her..it MIGHT be...IF i was newbscum.. And in this one I had to force reads out from her and make her take a stance, a stance she could have taken a LONG TIME BEFORE THIS. Even the reasons she gives for Sala and Pere are just...ugh. So Sala starts off bad, but now he isn't bad, so he's not scummy? I think? I can't even tell what her read on Sala, and how she arrived to a "alright now" conclusion, I don't get. Her Pere read? So much is just, observation. "he fluffed, his vote is eh". Does this mean you think he's scum? "he's open on sheeping nacho" well, so am I. Does this mean he's scum? "gut says he's scum" Okay then.
223 227 She doesn't reply to all of my 223, which sucks, because 223 probably has the most points that I had a problem with. But she even says it there in 227, she voted me for pressure. Cool. She thought it'd help her read me. Cool. But then she says it probably won't work because my defensiveness is playstyle(i still don't get it), and yet she doesn't move it why? Because she isn't townreading me? None of this makes any sense from a town perspective imo. You voted me because you thought the pressure would help you read me, but you've concluded by yourself that wouldn't work. That voting to pressure me wasn't going to work. But you vote me anyway why? Because you don't townread me? That makes zero sense to me, you're voteparking for the sake of it, when you could have used your vote for, idk, pere maybe, like you did when I pushed you to take a stance.

She also never answers how she concludes hyperdefensiveness was playstyle, she probably just came up with that and threw it out there to help out with the voteparking plan. Also, it's in 223 i say that if I weren't sheeping Nacho, I would be voting her, so this vote isn't out of the blue. Just FYI.

And questions that imo don't help her get anything alignment indicative but make her look like she's actually scumhunting!

Instead of asking that, why don't you ask Nacho why he voted Pere? Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.

Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?

[Xayzeck]

I'm unhappy selling you on Elyse-town because I am not completely sold on Elyse-town.
I'm much happier writing up a case on Iecerint.

I'd be infinitely happier if you would substantiate your Elyse case

Because I think I asked you a really long time ago but you never replied.

Like really, I don't care how confident you are in Elyse, I can't seem to understand how she's getting townread. Townvibes/feels, maybe, I'd understand those kinda reads on Elyse, but I don't understand legit townreads.

[PeregrineV]

nothing today, will catchup tomorrow.

[Elyse]

Further discussion about the dayvig will probably provide unnecessary information about the identity of the dayvig, so there is no reason for it to continue.

I don't like this post by Iecerint.

First, this is a poor reason to stop discussion about the dayvig. His or her identity will come out by the end of the day (we've agreed on that, yes?), so what's the big deal if he's found out now? I mean I agree it'd be better to keep him hidden to avoid buddying or something, but it's not a real reason to stop discussion about it.

If he said, "we've already decided what to do" or "talking about the dayvig allows scum to hide behind theory talk", then that would be acceptable. But this reason seems inconsistent, considering Iecerint himself continued to talk about the dayvig after this.

@Xay
I already explained everything you're scumreading me for and I don't know how to explain it another way.

@Iec
What's your read on Nacho?

@SC
What's your read on Iec?

[CrashTextDummie]

Hai there. Sorry for getting here late (I was on V/LA). I would like to remind you that I am not a robot.

I'll make some time to catch up on this game tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

Prodding Sal

[Iecerint]

@ Elyse -- I am not sure what Nacho's alignment is, but I would not entertain lynching him today simply on the basis of his activity.

I don't think it's particularly alarming that he has a scumread on me, if that's why you're asking me in particular. I've been kinda lurky in this game of late. I dunno if this is really a reliable scumtell for me, but I don't expect people to townread me particularly.

[Dry-fit]

Well to be more clear, I

had

a townread on Salamence but that's dissipated somewhat and thus wouldn't cry buckets of tears if he died.

My question is why aren's you pushing for a Salamence lynch full stop? I mean you had a scumread on him which you took back because of his catchup. Well there's nothing impressive about his catchup at all in my view. He calls himself pro-town and says StrangerCoug was guilty of the same setup speculation he was. When it was Sal who dragged SC into the setup discussion in the first place. Then he posts a basic reads list. As soon as a counterwagon to him forms on PV, he immediately tries to play up PV's vote hopping. Which is not particularly alignment indicative expecially with the position PV was in at the time.

Really I don't know why Sal isn't the lead wagon at this point. Nothing he's done looks townie and he's done several scummy things.

Is Elyse scum who just doesn't know what to do here? She's an experienced player so you wouldn't think that would be the case but I don't know how else to explain her play.

Aronis is a pretty awful place to be voting. Juls was clearly town and Aronis isn't getting lynched today.

Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?

[StrangerCoug]

@SC
What's your read on Iec?

Scum, which you would have picked up if you were reading the thread.

[Elyse]

My bad. I got the un fos mixed up with the other fos.

I never use fos.