Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

New Page Vote Count

Battle Mage: 3 (CES Glork Thesp)
Cogito Ergo Sum: 1 (Battle Mage)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Mgm)

Not voting: Patrick MBL CrashTextDummie

Looking for

5

votes for a lynch!

[Battle Mage]

vote count

err...
im pretty sure more votes than that have been cast.

[MrBuddyLee]

MgM's doggedness on me led me to reread his posts to see if his mistaken suspicions could be genuine. I don't think they are. MgM's suspicions are thin, spread, and not proportional. He claims to find me the scummiest player, and the only explanation he gives is this:

I don't see why MBL needed to draw attention away from the cop - he was already hidden. And when MBL did acted, he took stubbornness to mean copness and failed to see the hint pointing to the real cop

. The mere action of drawing attention away from a cop draws attention to the idea there is one. So it doesn't have the desired effect.

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job - at least at that point in the game.

I'm not willing to believe MBL at face value when he's talking about the whole Glork/Fritzler cop thing. It sounds like he's trying to talk his way out of it.

Let's see if we can get a better bandwagon going.

Unvote: Patrick; Vote: MBL

(Yes, that is a blatant attempt to derail some bandwagons. I want some of my suspects pushed for a change.)

The bolded section appears to slip by assuming my town-ness, yet chastises and incriminates me for drawing a wrong conclusion based on the evidence.

The last player MgM latched onto for an extended period of time was Ether, for nearly two complete days, based primarily and nearly exclusively on the fact that Ether didn't hammer Thesp. I don't like the extended nature of that suspicion either.

He makes consistently thin defenses of CES and tried to manipulate my vote off CES and onto Glork even though he wasn't voting Glork at the time (though he listed Glork as suspect, so it appears I was to do his dirty work for him). Also found me scummy for having "too many suspicions" and yet his list looks like:

Suspect: Patrick, Ether
Townish: Thesp
Rest: CES, Glork, MrBuddyLee, Nightfall, Zindaras

I believe at least 1 scum is in the group of people who aren't being looked at (MBL, Glork, Patrick).

And when pressed to give details on this weaselly suspicions list, he responds:

Glork, MBL and Zindaras are hard to read. I still don't trust Glork and MBL because of earlier, but I'm not as sure about them as I was before. What exactly Zindaras is, I'm not sure.

His posts aren't those of a player reading the game and actually looking for scum. They appear designed to manipulate and keep options open.

MgM, who do you suspect and who is clear in your mind and why? Can you please elaborate on each person?

[Mgm]

MgM's doggedness on me led me to reread his posts to see if his mistaken suspicions could be genuine. I don't think they are. MgM's suspicions are thin, spread, and not proportional. He claims to find me the scummiest player, and the only explanation he gives is this:

I don't see why MBL needed to draw attention away from the cop - he was already hidden. And when MBL did acted, he took stubbornness to mean copness and failed to see the hint pointing to the real cop

. The mere action of drawing attention away from a cop draws attention to the idea there is one. So it doesn't have the desired effect.

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job - at least at that point in the game.

I'm not willing to believe MBL at face value when he's talking about the whole Glork/Fritzler cop thing. It sounds like he's trying to talk his way out of it.

Let's see if we can get a better bandwagon going.

Unvote: Patrick; Vote: MBL

(Yes, that is a blatant attempt to derail some bandwagons. I want some of my suspects pushed for a change.)

The bolded section appears to slip by assuming my town-ness, yet chastises and incriminates me for drawing a wrong conclusion based on the evidence.

Maybe you bolded the wrong section, but the stuff you bolded makes no assumption of town-ness at all. It entirely focuses on how I find your reaction to Fritzler's copness scummy. If it assumes anything at all it's scumminess.

The last player MgM latched onto for an extended period of time was Ether, for nearly two complete days, based primarily and nearly exclusively on the fact that Ether didn't hammer Thesp. I don't like the extended nature of that suspicion either.

And the fact he was lurker extreme. If you promise to hammer someone and fail to do so, you deprave the town from lynch information. I find it scummy, you apparently don't. You get information from a bandwagon that results in no lynch and you get info from the night death, but these don't quite measure up.

He makes consistently thin defenses of CES and tried to manipulate my vote off CES and onto Glork even though he wasn't voting Glork at the time (though he listed Glork as suspect, so it appears I was to do his dirty work for him).

I don't buy the CES wagon. I think the attacks against him are either misguided or thin themselves, so I feel it's my duty to steer people away from that. If I remember correctly you showed some suspicions with regard to Glork at the time. Me asking you to switch was an attempt to get another wagon started. I was looking for people who shared my suspicions and if just one does, I'm glad to stand up for my convictions and join that wagon. I still am.

Also found me scummy for having "too many suspicions" and yet his list looks like:

Suspect: Patrick, Ether
Townish: Thesp
Rest: CES, Glork, MrBuddyLee, Nightfall, Zindaras

I believe at least 1 scum is in the group of people who aren't being looked at (MBL, Glork, Patrick).

And when pressed to give details on this weaselly suspicions list, he responds:

Glork, MBL and Zindaras are hard to read. I still don't trust Glork and MBL because of earlier, but I'm not as sure about them as I was before. What exactly Zindaras is, I'm not sure.

His posts aren't those of a player reading the game and actually looking for scum. They appear designed to manipulate and keep options open.

I disagree. My stance on most players is clear albeit spread throughout the thread. (At least clearer since that earlier list was published. Yes, I've been reading the game less, but I'm looking for scum just as much as the people who have been voting the same suspect for the last x days.

MgM, who do you suspect and who is clear in your mind and why? Can you please elaborate on each person?

The "Rest" list was particularly long because I didn't form strong views about the people on that list yet. With suspicions firmly locked in places I'm not looking, it's hard to see who is having wool pulled over their eyes and who is doing the manipulating. And then there's simply the fact I have been spending some less time on the site. By the way, you call me manipulative, but calling my list of suspects "weaselly" is itself manipulative. Even if you like such lists to be formatted differently doesn't make mine any less valid. It just isn't complete yet. I'd love doing so, but it takes a lot of time and it's not something I can do at a moment's notice.

Anyway, I think earlier logic pretty much puts Thesp in the clear (if he was indeed investigated and not the GF). And I'm ready to pursue non-voters if it looks they are forcing us towards a no lynch again.

[Mgm]

You can believe me or not, but it appears I've lost my notes on this game. Bah. MBL, assuming I can find enough time to extensively examine posts, who do you think I should take a look at first?

[Patrick]

And the fact he was lurker extreme. If you promise to hammer someone and fail to do so, you deprave the town from lynch information. I find it scummy, you apparently don't. You get information from a bandwagon that results in no lynch and you get info from the night death, but these don't quite measure up.

God this annoys me no end. You're looking at it generally and not even applying the fact that Thesp is very likely protown, which massively changes things and means not hammering him was actually a good thing. Please step up about 50 gears if you are protown and stop saying stuff like this.

[Battle Mage]

And the fact he was lurker extreme. If you promise to hammer someone and fail to do so, you deprave the town from lynch information. I find it scummy, you apparently don't. You get information from a bandwagon that results in no lynch and you get info from the night death, but these don't quite measure up.

God this annoys me no end. You're looking at it generally and not even applying the fact that Thesp is very likely protown, which massively changes things and means not hammering him was actually a good thing. Please step up about 50 gears if you are protown and stop saying stuff like this.

i disagree that Thesp is 'likely protown'. Of the 2 'confirmed' innocents, id say he is significantly the scummiest. i think it is possible that whilst he is a bad play for today, if we dont find the GF soon, he might be a good play.
BM

<<quote moved>>

[MrBuddyLee]

MgM, I'd be satisfied with hearing you talk about CES, Glork, Thesp, Nightfall and Patrick without reading the thread. I want to hear your gut instincts.

[Patrick]

i disagree that Thesp is 'likely protown'. Of the 2 'confirmed' innocents, id say he is significantly the scummiest. i think it is possible that whilst he is a bad play for today, if we dont find the GF soon, he might be a good play.
BM

I disagree, I think he is likely town. I'm fairly sure I've seen MgM say so at some point as well. Thus his argument is that Ether is scummy for not hammering a player who he thinks is likely town. I can't see any sense in that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Battle Mage, for your information, the first mention of a roleblocker is post 2 under Clarifications. There's also a link in the first post.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, for your information, the first mention of a roleblocker is post 2 under Clarifications. There's also a link in the first post.

oh, so with 7 choices there, and only 3 actually existing, you really think that an RB was likely enough to base your entire gameplay around?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh, I definitely based my play around it. Absolutely. Every past I made relied on the assumption that there was a roleblocker in the game.

(It was a mostly theoretical discussion really. Of little importance.)

[Glork]

Battle Mage's analysis was rather uninspiring. Why isn't he lynched yet?

[MrBuddyLee]

What's with the rush to lynch with two new players freshly read?

I've been scrutinizing BM's posts as well and reached a somewhat different conclusion than you, Glork. Can you cite some specifics that'd lead you to believe his analysis is handwaving or insincere?

[Mgm]

And the fact he was lurker extreme. If you promise to hammer someone and fail to do so, you deprave the town from lynch information. I find it scummy, you apparently don't. You get information from a bandwagon that results in no lynch and you get info from the night death, but these don't quite measure up.

God this annoys me no end. You're looking at it generally and not even applying the fact that Thesp is very likely protown, which massively changes things and means not hammering him was actually a good thing. Please step up about 50 gears if you are protown and stop saying stuff like this.

We know that now, but the fact the person he didn't lynch is possibly pro-town was just dumb luck. (And the fact also remains that Thesp is less "confirmed" than I am, because we don't know for sure he was investigated to begin with. What I'm saying is that he lost us information. Any lynch would've given us information at the time and instead Ether's action gave us a no lynch. It might tell us something about Ether, but it deprived us of information about pretty much everyone else.

MgM, I'd be satisfied with hearing you talk about CES, Glork, Thesp, Nightfall and Patrick without reading the thread. I want to hear your gut instincts.

And what do you think that would achieve? Anything I'd be saying without any sort of evidence would be pointless speculation.

[Battle Mage]

so MgM, are you saying that you would willingly join a Glork wagon?

[Patrick]

We know that now, but the fact the person he didn't lynch is possibly pro-town was just dumb luck. (And the fact also remains that Thesp is less "confirmed" than I am, because we don't know for sure he was investigated to begin with. What I'm saying is that he lost us information. Any lynch would've given us information at the time and instead Ether's action gave us a no lynch. It might tell us something about Ether, but it deprived us of information about pretty much everyone else.

Um. If Ether was scum and Thesp town, Ether would know Thesp's alignment. No dumb luck. I consider it unlikely she would turn down an easy chance to hammer him in that situation. The only way Ether's lack of hammer on Thesp could be "dumb luck" is if she was town and got lucky, and you almost seem to be implying that's what you think happened in your post. You can't argue that she is scum and just got lucky in not hammering Thesp. I've already explained why the no lynch did not in fact deprive us of information. I pointed out at the time that on day 3 we could have lynched Thesp if we wanted to, and received that same information, in fact we'd likely have got

more

information out of it. As it happens we made a collective decision and found what was likely a much better lynch. Your complaints here simply don't make sense, and you've been riding this for about 2 game days. And for the record, I consider Thesp far more confirmed than you, not because of the cop innocent, but due to his interactions with known scum.

You seem very evasive about talking about your suspicions in general. First you refused to give me your case against Ether, saying that there was no better case against anyone else, which already implies you don't think what you have against Ether is particularly good. And now you won't answer MBL's question, as though you can't possibly imagine how gut feelings in a game of mafia could be useful.

[Mgm]

Patrick: You don't want to get it, do you? If Ether was scum and Thesp was pro-town it was dumb luck he won't be linked to the lynch of an innocent. We could've lynched Thesp the day after but that would've been nonsense. I'm not saying he should've been lynched. I'm saying not following through on a promise is scummy and causing a no lynch when he could've lynched or pushed for the lynch of an alternative player is scummy. You say the no lynch gave us more info. So what info do you think that no lynch gave us that a lynch would not have given us?

Battle Mage: You said you considered Thesp more scummy than me in post 1531. Is it just the fact that his investigation isn't fully confirmed or is it based on something else too?

My gut feelings:

Battle Mage (replaced Nightfall): Didn't think the early attacks against him made sense. He made fine post by post analyses. Post 595 pings the scumdar a tad.
Cogito Ergo Sum: Made no sense to going after Thesp. Even if Thesp wasn't investigated, there was no particular reason to think he was any more suspicious than anyone else.
CrashTextDummie (replaced Ether): Lurking, going after Nightfall with bad arguments. I was about ready to lynch him for lurking. CTD makes more of an effort. CTD is hard to read, but his predecessor was pretty scummy.
Glork: Butted heads with him on day one over no lynch jokes and the like. Didn't agree with him at all for most of the game, but he seems to be more open to new ideas than others. Suspicions on him are easing.
Mgm: Innocent, obviously.
MrBuddyLee: Gave extended explanations why I suspect him on earlier days. Suspicions haven't eased.
Patrick: He annoys me, I annoy him. I'm not sure if he really doesn't understand, if it's a simple disagreement, or if he's purposely trying to make me look bad. Mid-range suspicious.
Thesp: Might be trying to look like an investigated townie, but that should be a line of investigation for later. Had quite an speedy bandwagon (which indicates he could be innocent). If he's scum, it's one of his buddies who stalled it.

Below, I put these in order from most to least suspicious, but an attempt at numerical ordering shows the mid-class is very close together. Numbers are based on overall gut feelings on a scale 1-5. People who thought made manipulative posts got an additional point. Non-voters also get an additional point. Behavior I consider pro-town resulted in substracted points.

MBL: 6
CTD: 4
BM: 3
CES: 3
Patrick: 3
Glork: 3
Thesp: 2

[Mgm]

so MgM, are you saying that you would willingly join a Glork wagon?

No, but I might be willing to join the BM wagon if more incriminating evidence against him surfaces.

[Patrick]

Patrick: You don't want to get it, do you? If Ether was scum and Thesp was pro-town it was dumb luck he won't be linked to the lynch of an innocent. We could've lynched Thesp the day after but that would've been nonsense. I'm not saying he should've been lynched. I'm saying not following through on a promise is scummy and causing a no lynch when he could've lynched or pushed for the lynch of an alternative player is scummy. You say the no lynch gave us more info. So what info do you think that no lynch gave us that a lynch would not have given us?

Well no I'm starting to think I don't get it. I'm saying if Ether was scum and Thesp town, she would have hammered to kill an innocent. I doubt she would have picked up any flak for it at all. Scum need to lynch protown players, if a chance crops up where they can do it and not look bad then they generally take it. So in effect, I'm arguing that her not following through on her promise is not scummy in this case. No lynching didn't deprive us of any information. I don't know how to explain this to you, and I've tried several times. With 12 alive, we had 3 mislynches allowed before we lost. At 11 alive, after no lynching, we still have our 3 lives. We didn't lose any lynching oppotunities. So we didn't lose any oppotunities to get extra information.

I'm pretty happy to vote Battle Mage after CTD has finished his analysis. MBL - have you played with Battle Mage before?

[Battle Mage]

so MgM, are you saying that you would willingly join a Glork wagon?

No, but I might be willing to join the BM wagon if more incriminating evidence against him surfaces.

thats a change of tune, considering in your previous post, you said that i was one of the least scummy people. strange...

<<quote moved>>

[MrBuddyLee]

I've read BM's posts in the past and found many of them dreadful. This game, he seems to have settled down and is making an effort to play responsibly and not recklessly, which is respectful of his fellow town or fellow scum. His posts thus far in this game reminded me of Nightfall's--not spectacularly insightful, but with a ring of township to them. A few attempts at assessing multidimensional relationships.

CTD, you owe us analysis of the most relevant part of the game please. I appreciate your efforts thus far.

[Mgm]

thats a change of tune, considering in your previous post, you said that i was one of the least scummy people. strange...

so MgM, are you saying that you would willingly join a Glork wagon?

No, but I might be willing to join the BM wagon if more incriminating evidence against him surfaces.

That was until post 595 was pointed out to me. But don't worry just yet. That one post is not enough to convince me.

[Battle Mage]

could you addres your particular concern with post 595. as far as i can see, it reflects upon Nightfall as protownish, as Nightfall-scum would obviously be making an effort to distance himself from CDB, whereas in reality, he actually agreed with CDB openly. thats either incredibly stupid scum, or rather naive townie.
I cant see how that makes anything near a case however.
BM

[Glork]

could you addres your particular concern with post 595. as far as i can see, it reflects upon Nightfall as protownish, as Nightfall-scum would obviously be making an effort to distance himself from CDB, whereas in reality, he actually agreed with CDB openly. thats either incredibly stupid scum, or rather naive townie.
I cant see how that makes anything near a case however.
BM

Your claim that Nightfall "would obviously...distance himself from CDB" at Post 595 makes no sense to me. CDB was not in any particular amount of danger at that time, so distancing/busing hardly seems necessary. Could you explain

WHY

distancing would "obviously" be the tactic of choice?

The answer you have given above is nothing but WIFOM. "Nightfall as scum would do this, but he didn't do this, so he must not be scum."


Preview Edit: Actually, now that I look at it, Post 595 as a whole is *VERY* weird. He states multiple times that he agrees with CDB, but in his summary analysis, he gives a very, very neutral assessment of CDB's play. It's like Nightfall wanted to make CDB look good, but was afraid to definitively attach himself to CDB. And later, he brings up CDB again when he's talking about Fritz -- which indicates that he definitely has CDB on the mind.

Yeah, I'm like 95% sure that Nightfall/BM is scum now.



Now, to answer your question, MBL: Battle Mage's analysis just seems horribly disjointed. It's like he listed all of he actions in the game and then threw darts to see which ones he'd put down in his analysis. Some are just "X voted for Y." Others are "I see a possible distancing tactic." There's virtually no way to go back and check the analysis for accuracy or consistency without sitting down, reading the entire game, and trying to match up his statements with what happened where in the game. He also uses Burden of Proficiency as part of his evidence that I am scum (and, as far as I can tell, his point that I am "always the first to promote [my] brilliant scumcatching ability" is not only erroneous, but not relevant to this game in particular). He seems very eager to "remind" us that he "is pro-town," as indicated in his Burden of Proficiency argument, his comment on CTD's unvote, . In his comments towards me, he criticizes me for being confident that CDB was scum and not having a power-role, and questions why I didn't die. That discussion, I feel, was thoroughly exhausted, but he never acknowledges the fact that I made an explanation or that MBL and I had lengthy discussions on that whole situation.

BM's analysis contains a glaring logical fallacy, seems edited/catered to his end results, and he doesn't manage to address any of the points raised against Nightfall. When he replaced into the game and asked what points had been made against Nightfall, I told him to go look for and note those points. He claims that he did, but as far as I can tell, he only puts "X votes Nightfall" or "Y claims Nightfall is scum." He offers no insight as to his predecessors actions and no explanation for Nightfall's behavior until this most recent post, which reeks of nothing but WIFOM.




I find it very scary that BM states that "MGM is proven town" by Adele's investigation when we alll know that there is a Godfather in the game. Given MGM's reluctance to join a Nightfall (and now a BM) wagon, and BM's assertion that MGM is cleared as town, I would seriously consider going after MGM if BM were lynched as the other Mafia Goon today. Of course, I still see MBL as a possible third scumbag among this group, too, regardless of which mafia role BM would be lynched with.

If BM were lynched as town today, I think I'd be going after CES the hardest tomorrow. I don't really know who I'd peg as the second scum at that point... but I really don't think it's going to be an issue.