Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Albert B. Rampage]

TCS's vote is on Albert.

If you think Albert is scum, then you don't tell him "u shuldnt claim vanilla", you tell him "BS". If you know Albert is town (because you're scum), you feel comfortable chiding him for being a townie who just made a bad play.

That makes slightly more sense.

Unvote

[The Central Scrutinizer]

TCS's vote is on Albert.

If you think Albert is scum, then you don't tell him "u shuldnt claim vanilla", you tell him "BS". If you know Albert is town (because you're scum), you feel comfortable chiding him for being a townie who just made a bad play.

Claiming townie is a bad idea whether you're scum or town.

[Glork]

I have to agree with TCS on this one. I see him making the comment regardless of what Albert's alignment would be.

In fact, I would say that "getting lynched is better than claming vanilla" is

more

applicable if Albert is scum than if Albert is town.

As town, Albert has two choices: Claim vanilla or refuse to claim (assuming, of course, that Albert is not stupid enough to lie as town).

As scum, Albert could have claimed to be a Cop (fishing for a counterclaim from a second Cop), a Doctor (pretty much uncounterable at this point, and likely to recieve protection from at least one other Doc if he is believed), Vig (not advisable -- he gets himself vigged if there is one, and cannot prove himself if there isn't one), or Vanilla. Vig at least forces him to be killed/lynched later and provides for the chance of a mislynch today. Vanilla doesn't help him at all. Cop or Doc are clearly the best plays, and claiming Vanilla is the worst play.


So... TCS's statement makes sense to me regardless of what Albert's alignment is or what knowledge TCS has on Albert.

I see where you were going with this, MBL, but you're just plain wrong this time around.

[MrBuddyLee]

In fact, I would say that "getting lynched is better than claming vanilla" is

more

applicable if Albert is scum than if Albert is town.

I see where you were going with this, MBL, but you're just plain wrong this time around.

Glork, you're totally, totally wrong here. If the statement was "any claim is better than claiming vanilla" you'd be right, but "getting lynched is better than claiming vanilla" only applies to town. Therefore the statement by TCS leans strongly towards assuming Albert is town.

TCS's statement was:

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla.

Not for scum it isn't. This statement only applies to town, and therefore TCS possibly made a slip that he knew Albert was town. Don't you see this?

Sometimes you read a player's post and think, "Why was that the first thing they thought of to say?" TCS's reaction was a water-treading exercise and a bizarre first thing to post unless he was scum who instinctively thought, "What a dumb-ass townie" and blurted that out.

[Jack]

Or he could have thought,

if

Albert B is a townie he shouldn't claim it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

TCS's vote is on Albert.

If you think Albert is scum, then you don't tell him "u shuldnt claim vanilla", you tell him "BS". If you know Albert is town (because you're scum), you feel comfortable chiding him for being a townie who just made a bad play.

Claiming townie is a bad idea whether you're scum or town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Or he could have thought,

if

Albert B is a townie he shouldn't claim it.

But that's not what he said, and we're playing a game that involves careful use and analysis of words and phrases. He said:

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla.

not

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla if you're town.

/horsebeating

[beanbagboy]

Er, sorry, newb alert, why is this? Getting lynched being better, that is.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Er, sorry, newb alert, why is this? Getting lynched being better, that is.

Because if I claim townie and am not lynched, it makes it easier for scum to NK power roles.

If I am lynched, my claim would have been useless.

[Glork]

Okay, I see what you're saying regarding TCS's statement.

Now, I would argue that the fact that he talks specifically about claiming

vanilla

is significant. In a game like this, somebody who claims to be vanilla will

not

give the rest of the town any reason via claim to deter their wagon -- regardless of whether they are scum or town. Beacuse claiming Vanilla is so utterly pointless, one might as well just allow themselves to be lynched. That's what TCS was getting at.

Nevertheless, even if I accept your meaning as being the correct interpretation, I find

TCS's reaction was a water-treading exercise and a bizarre first thing to post unless he

was scum who

instinctively thought, "What a dumb-ass townie" and blurted that out.

to be untrue. Suppose TCS was a cop who had investigated Albert as being innocent. Suppose TCS had just legitimately come to the conclusion that Albert was town and thought he was still "a dumb-ass townie." You seem to have this constant aversion to people who state with any semblance of certainty that somebody is of a certain alignment. I think that's one of the things that bothers me, because you tend to think so damned black-and-white. Perhaps you're right and TCS really is scum and slipped up -- I currently find that to be rather unlikely.

MBL, could you point out specific cases in which your affinity for "slip-ups" has

actually caught scum red-handed

? I've recognized this as a favored tactic of yours, and I disagree with it. I am the kind of player who adopts a much more open interpretation to that kind of posting -- as I said, there are many reasons that a player might conclude that somebody is pro-town -- and I do not think that it makes a legitimate case in and of itself. I'd like to see some hardcore evidence that it actually works

more often than it leads nowhere

before I can even begin to accept your reason for voting TCS. Right now, to me, it looks like you're trying to distract from the Albertwagon by making a lot of noise in another direction.

[beanbagboy]

Glork, I have to say, while... er... I

think

I agree with you on the vanilla claims subject, I really don't go for albert as scum. I think it's pretty much a null tell how he's acting, he does this all the time, or, at least it seems consistent with the other game I'm in with him. Granted, it's ongoing, but still, that's enough to keep my vote where it is.

Also, how does it make it easier for scum to lynch power roles? I think this is what Glork was saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that power roles are just as likely to claim vanilla.

[Glork]

No, no, no, no. Power roles should always claim what they are.

If Albert is indeed a vanilla townie, and he survives today, then the mafia will know that if they go power-role-hunting at night, they should not worry about killing Albert. So if they're looking for clues/hints as to who might have a power-role, they would have one less potential target.

[petroleumjelly]

Official Day One Vote Count: #9

Albert B. Rampage – 7 – HackerHuck, Johhan, ~N9V~, Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer, YogurtBandit, Glork

Battle Mage – 3 – Haut Boy, HungryJoe, Guardian
Guardian – 2 – MrBuddyLee, beanbagboy

Johhan – 1 – Nik Zero
YogurtBandit – 1 – Battle Mage

With

18

alive, it takes

10

to lynch!

Not Voting – 4 – Albert B. Rampage, BillyTwilight, Coron, Jack

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, I rarely interpret those slips as 100% indicative of alignment. But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're

something

, often they can tilt the scales between two players who both look scummy to me, and there's a lot to be learned from people's reactions to the observation. I don't think in black and white by any means, but that doesn't mean I won't push these things aggressively.

I'll think about if/when I've caught scum making slips in any games not still running. And I'm not trying to distract from anything--it's actually time for a reread to see who's not participating.

[HungryJoe]

Ho hum. I should really be participating more, I suppose, but this argument seems kinda odd to me. I mean, even if I were in a position where I needed to claim to stay alive, why on earth would I want to claim an actual power role? I mean, the chances of townies not lynching you is a bit better, but your death at the hands of mafia is quite nearly assured that night anyways, at that stage. Claiming vanilla, while perhaps the least believable of all claims, is still the way I would see the best survivability in. I mean, then your chances aren't any *worse* for being lynched/NK'd.

I guess I haven't seen enough games to know that, but it seems to me that claiming anything *but* vanilla townie is a good way to assure your own death.

[Glork]

But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're

something

....are you trying to tell me you've found nothing else to go on?

[Guardian]

/me still thinks BM is scum. TCS might be, I think the catch is meaningful, to an extent.

[MrBuddyLee]

But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're

something

....are you trying to tell me you've found nothing else to go on?

annoyed: Glork

But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're something,

often they can tilt the scales between two players who both look scummy to me, and there's a lot to be learned from people's reactions to the observation

.

[Jack]

Vote:Guardian[/b last post is quite scummy.

[Guardian]

Jack, I am completely clueless as to why, but ok. I try and post almost every time I read a game thread... those were my only thoughts at the time.

[Jack]

and that sounds like scum who is upset someone found him scummy.

[YogurtBandit]

I was away for Thursday and Yesterday... 3 Pages since then O.O

I had already Unvoted Albert on Page 7, but I'll do it again to clarify it.

Unvote

If I am lynched, my claim would have been useless.

Useless in what way? Yes, I understand it could be a useless claim if you are lynched, but The My claim wouldve been useless Also could be something like "Claiming town would be useless If I am Lynched and I turn up as scum"

FOS: Albert

me still thinks BM is scum. TCS might be, I think the catch is meaningful, to an extent.

Why do you think TCS is scum?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I greatly disapprove of YB's logic.

[YogurtBandit]

I greatly disapprove of YB's logic.

Why/How do you greatly disapprove of My logic?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Because my wording meant what it meant, your trying to distort what I say in such a fashion that will benefit you.