Open 569 ~ Hope + 1 ~ Game Over!

[The Bulge]

If you need explanation about why it's a town-tell, I think that when one head is messing up, the other head (as scum) will try to distance and not draw attention to it. Calling out your hydra partner on their shit is town behaviour, because it means you have nothing to be afraid of.

[Team 9]

The town-read would only apply if GIF said something like "Rumia let me handle this please". I realized as I was typing that it was you that pointed it out, not GIF. That doesn't make it a scum-read, but it eliminates the town-read and leaves me with the scum read I had before.

why didn't you just say you had specifically misinterpreted that post? afaik you had only vaguely said that GIF had never addressed me. either way, I think this specific point was a misunderstanding.

but anyway:

^agree with this. the way he brought up that flawed chain of logic felt more like discrediting to me.

I think I might just step back and let Cirno-sama handle this cause she's wording it way more eloquently than I am

-Rumia

when you saw this post, walk me through why did you think it was GIF telling me to let him handle it?

now that I look at it again I do admit I could see it coming from the second line, but still - I had explicitly pointed out in the same post I'm agreeing with GIF. how did you see that and still think it was GIF telling me to let him handle it? this doesn't seem like a natural angle to push in response to this post - which is exactly the point I'm arguing.

-Rumia

[Team 9]

also, it doesn't matter if we argue over "lurking" vs. "inactivity". the point is, you were using the fact you were inactive up to this point as a shield to get out of suspicion - which is what we've been saying this whole time.

-Rumia

[The Bulge]

The town-read would only apply if GIF said something like "Rumia let me handle this please". I realized as I was typing that it was you that pointed it out, not GIF. That doesn't make it a scum-read, but it eliminates the town-read and leaves me with the scum read I had before.

why didn't you just say you had specifically misinterpreted that post? afaik you had only vaguely said that GIF had never addressed me. either way, I think this specific point was a misunderstanding.

but anyway:

^agree with this. the way he brought up that flawed chain of logic felt more like discrediting to me.

I think I might just step back and let Cirno-sama handle this cause she's wording it way more eloquently than I am

-Rumia

when you saw this post, walk me through why did you think it was GIF telling me to let him handle it?

now that I look at it again I do admit I could see it coming from the second line, but still - I had explicitly pointed out in the same post I'm agreeing with GIF. how did you see that and still think it was GIF telling me to let him handle it? this doesn't seem like a natural angle to push in response to this post - which is exactly the point I'm arguing.

-Rumia

Not what I meant.

Hypothetically

if GIF were to say something like that.
Originally I saw the head-head interaction and jumped to the town-tell. Then I realized it would only have made sense if it were the other way around. If you still don't understand please re-read my posts I'm tired of explaining this.

also, it doesn't matter if we argue over "lurking" vs. "inactivity". the point is, you were using the fact you were inactive up to this point as a shield to get out of suspicion - which is what we've been saying this whole time.

-Rumia

QUOTE. ME.

[Team 9]

QUOTE. ME.

I'm not going to pointlessly quote when you've been over this with GIF already. the point still stands, no matter which one of us is arguing it.

-Rumia

[Team 9]

oh btw just out of curiosity

you admitted you generally have a hard time getting your thoughts across. if that's the case, why was your initial reaction to me to keep telling me to read your posts?

this is especially the case given the way you handled GIF, when you put a lot of effort into making sure there was no misunderstanding anywhere. I'd think you would at least consider there was a misunderstanding somewhere re: me too, as opposed to being confident you got your point across.

(I can't help but think the best motivation for this is to buddy up to the stronger player in the hydra while trying to discredit the weaker player via "didn't read the thread", but lol. regardless I'm still curious)

-Rumia

[The Bulge]

QUOTE. ME.

I'm not going to pointlessly quote when you've been over this with GIF already. the point still stands, no matter which one of us is arguing it.

-Rumia

I haven't been over anything with GIF because he never quoted me either. Come on, it's one ISO search. Prove to me that I used that god-awful defense. If I did, well then fuck me, because that's terrible. If I didn't it just confirms my initial suspicion about 1542 that you're pushing me without actual basis and throwing around random shit to justify it.

PEDIT - I never buddied anyone in the hydra.

re: the rest of that post, fair enough. If you don't understand, I'm just frustrated.

[Team 9]

If I didn't it just confirms my initial suspicion about 1542 that you're pushing me without actual basis and throwing around random shit to justify it.

interesting

both of us have said several times that our initial scumread on you came via POE (and, in my case, your behavior during the time you were actually in the thread)

at this point, you have acknowledged this, by virtue of 1602 - you said you were leaving out the POE reasons for our scumreads, thus acknowledging they exist. thus, you should know at this point we are not pushing you "without actual basis".

at this point, I firmly believe you are failing at keeping your story straight. I'm done here

-Rumia

[davesaz]

<

I'm V/LA.

How V/LA are you if you managed to catch that from this gargantuan thread?

Other than that, tn, can you explain your reads on me? Your read on bulge shows you're tunneling pretty bad, but I honestly don't know whether to see it as a scum tunnel or town tunnel.

I'm at a camp. I have an organized schedule all day with free time in the afternoon for an hour and a half and in the evenings (right now) for as long as I decide to stay up.

Bulge is sitting there avoiding the thread

Are you fucking kidding me? I literally just walked into my house. I've been travelling all day and I've been at a camp all week with a strict schedule and very little free time. I am not lurking. I'm fucking busy. That's what a V/LA is.

How V/LA are you if you managed to catch that from this gargantuan thread?

I understand your question now. I get distracted easily while re-reading. Every time I check my egosearch, I get the most recent posts in this thread. So I'm kinda reading the beginning of the thread at the same time as what's happening right now.

PEDIT - tn I'm not posting because I'm reading. Which takes a long time. See above.

I don't see this as particularly defensive. If anything, annoyed at having to explain it multiple times.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure I buy the PoE, at least not wholesale. If the only reason you have scum reads on people is that they're the only ones you don't have town reads on, it means the scum are improbably good. Unless the town is also unusually inactive, having all scum inactive/fluffy raises the odds that scum will be lynched early. I don't believe it's likely for all 3 scum to lay low. I think at least one of them would be active, and if they were active then they'd be making a case on someone who was town read by other players. Or the active scum is making a case on an inactive / lurker / contentless player.

Hmm, I had to edit that several times while writing it. Hoping it makes sense...

[davesaz]

Make that a case on an inactive/apathetic townie. So either all scum are active, or Team 9 is at least a weak town read. (if one or more scum inactive then Team 9 would have to be bus reading -- not completely out of the question but IMO not likely this early)

[Sakura Hana]

@davesaz: That's not how PoE works however, even if it's not likely for all 3 scum to lay low that's not what gave them the scumread, it just was coincidential with the people that were laying low.
@Bulge: Is fabricating reasons out of their ass, from the reason to town-read Team 9 to the reason to decide to not town-read Team 9, I've seen hydra partners argue in-thread from both sides of the spectrum, hydra dissonance is anti-town if anything (tho in this case it isn't technically dissonance since they agree), 1 hydra partner quoting other and saying "Oh I agree on this too!" shouldn't make a difference on your tell if it only happened from one side, since you're taking into account one calling for one another, if this makes a difference, then you're looking at something else entirely, not the fact that you're presenting in your answer, but you decided to use this reasoning as pushing for Team 9 scum (because the town-tell wasn't there), without giving any further reasoning on your scumread, and you still haven't countered their PoE reasoning, to do this you'd have to argue that one of their townreads isn't town, instead you went back to your activity/lurking reasoning, which means your scum read is fabricated and you're scum.

[Team 9]

it's easier than that. Bulge is continuing to push an angle he's already admitted is wrong:

1. Bulge sees 1542, pushes us over it for supposedly using circular logic and not having a "real" reason to scum read him
2. we have said several times our read on him initially came from POE
3. since then, Bulge has:
i. admitted he was misinterpreting 1542
ii. acknowledged that our initial scum read on him came from POE
4. now, despite both of those things, he's picking the angle about 1542 up and pushing it again.

personally I think it's bc he forgot that his original angle about 1542 was invalidated by him supposedly "misinterpreting" 1542, but either way, none of this adds up

-Rumia

[davesaz]

@Sakura: Punctuation (in particular periods) and line breaks are your friends.

First I should start off by saying that I'm not against the read per se, and have no desire to defend any individual. I'm just pointing out from a pure logic point of view that it is far more likely to be at least a little wrong than it is to be totally right. With that in mind...

The PoE is valid only if all the underlying town reads are valid. Worst case, 3 of the people read as town are actually mafia, and the 3 "eliminated" people are actually town. Best case it's 100% inaccurate and we only need to lynch the 3 identified people to win. I expect both edge cases to be false, and the truth lies somewhere in between. If Team 9 is town, then these 3 players are most likely to be 1 town 2 mafia, or 2 town 1 mafia. If team 9 is mafia, then all 3 of these players are probably town, or one of them might be mafia and it's a soft bus.

To sum that all up, we can't take the PoE for granted. But I think there may be 1-2 scum in those 3 players.

BTW, how would someone who is innocent defend against a PoE read anyway? I don't think I've ever seen one used this early in a game.

[Team 9]

Time doesn't matter when there's a 66 pages wOrth of content already.
With that logic, no reads are valid because we can prove that they are valid.

[Team 9]

Also someone who Is innocent defends against a PoE by showing that someone outside of one's townread is wrong.

[Team 9]

I thought Team 9 was maybe scum until the heads addressed each other (1584) and that makes me lean town for some reason. If one head is acting scummy and the other isn't openly disagreeing/calling them out, it looks like distancing from one's own slot if that makes sense. Like they don't want to draw attention to it.

Although, I don't recall Cirno (the townier of the two) ever addressing Rumia's posts, only vice versa, so I guess the tell-based read still stands now that I think about it.

Um doing what you said is like a hydra version of Amish tell.

[Varsoon]

also, it doesn't matter if we argue over "lurking" vs. "inactivity". the point is, you were using the fact you were inactive up to this point as a shield to get out of suspicion - which is what we've been saying this whole time.

-Rumia

Handling the pressure particularly poorly.
Good morning, guys. :3

[Team 9]

QUOTE. ME.

I'm not going to pointlessly quote when you've been over this with GIF already. the point still stands, no matter which one of us is arguing it.

-Rumia

I haven't been over anything with GIF because he never quoted me either. Come on, it's one ISO search. Prove to me that I used that god-awful defense. If I did, well then fuck me, because that's terrible. If I didn't it just confirms my initial suspicion about 1542 that you're pushing me without actual basis and throwing around random shit to justify it.

PEDIT - I never buddied anyone in the hydra.

re: the rest of that post, fair enough. If you don't understand, I'm just frustrated.

You do realize that 1542 wasn't directed towards this game at all and was a hypothetical speaking of one of the scenario that all scums would be inactive/lurk, right? You even thinking about that sentence as a push on you makes me think that you're having a guilty conscious.

-C

[GuyInFreezer]

Hell, I'll even quote it for you with a context.

So what's the great scum strategy behind having the entire mafia team act like useless, fluffy lurkers in thread?

Proabably wasn't intended.
This game grew too fast that it tired them out and hit them with apathy before it hits town.

[Team 9]

Hell, I'll even quote it for you with a context.

So what's the great scum strategy behind having the entire mafia team act like useless, fluffy lurkers in thread?

Proabably wasn't intended.
This game grew too fast that it tired them out and hit them with apathy before it hits town.

[Team 9]

Inb4 "oh I misunderstood what i originally thought I misunderstood then I thought I misunderstood what i thought what i originally misunderstood"

[Jakuzure Nonon]

VOTE COUNT

1.36

(1) tn5421:

X88B88

(2) SXTLHGaiden:

davesaz, tn5421

(0) startfromtheheart:

(0) X88B88:

(0) Varsoon:

(0) Sakura Hana:

(0) Thesp:

(L-3) The Bulge:

Thesp, Team 9, Sakura Hana, Varsoon

(0) Team 9:

The Bulge

(1) davesaz:

SXTLHGaiden

(0) Flubbernugget:

Bins

(0) notscience:

(1) Bins:

Flubbernugget

(0) No Lynch:

Not Voting:

notscience, startfromtheheart

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch. The day will end on

Monday, September 8th, 2014 @ 11:34pm PDT,

which is in

(expired on 2014-09-09 02:34:00).

[Bins]

Right, so I'm too lazy to put an actual case together, but reading over it now I think Flubber might actually be our guy.

My wagon was the same people that are now voting and 'flashwagoning' Bulge. I think these people are town, and I think that is the geniune consensus. However, Flubbernugget jumped onto my wagon with a reason. And that's not that bad, but the fact was he stayed on my wagon and continued pushing me with a weak case. I was wrong to dismiss that as town, because I actually think it's him trying to make a fake case for me now.

He's now the last person on my wagon... because he doesn't know how to get off it. And you may be thinking, "Well, yeah, what if he still wants to vote you?" But that's the thing, his reasons for voting me are now more seen in other players than me.

Minimal active scumhunting.

Weak defenses.

Lots of filler.

That's what it boils down to.

He voted me for DOING NOTHING, as you can see... there's a lot of other people... more guilty in that offense.

[The Bulge]

@Bulge: Is fabricating reasons out of their ass, from the reason to town-read Team 9 to the reason to decide to not town-read Team 9, I've seen hydra partners argue in-thread from both sides of the spectrum, hydra dissonance is anti-town if anything (tho in this case it isn't technically dissonance since they agree), 1 hydra partner quoting other and saying "Oh I agree on this too!" shouldn't make a difference on your tell if it only happened from one side, since you're taking into account one calling for one another, if this makes a difference, then you're looking at something else entirely, not the fact that you're presenting in your answer, but you decided to use this reasoning as pushing for Team 9 scum (because the town-tell wasn't there), without giving any further reasoning on your scumread, and you still haven't countered their PoE reasoning, to do this you'd have to argue that one of their townreads isn't town, instead you went back to your activity/lurking reasoning, which means your scum read is fabricated and you're scum.

I tried, but I can't read this.

it's easier than that. Bulge is continuing to push an angle he's already admitted is wrong:

1. Bulge sees 1542, pushes us over it for supposedly using circular logic and not having a "real" reason to scum read him
2. we have said several times our read on him initially came from POE
3. since then, Bulge has:
i. admitted he was misinterpreting 1542
ii. acknowledged that our initial scum read on him came from POE
4. now, despite both of those things, he's picking the angle about 1542 up and pushing it again.

personally I think it's bc he forgot that his original angle about 1542 was invalidated by him supposedly "misinterpreting" 1542, but either way, none of this adds up

-Rumia

Have you never heard of changing your mind? Here it is in order.
1. I thought 1542 was too general (I've explained this so much already, not doing it again)
2. Team 9 explained it, I realized I simply misunderstood.
3. With Team 9 still pushing me with nonexistent reasoning (my "I haven't done anything" defense

that I'm still waiting to be quoted

), I don't know whether to believe the explanation (see #2) or to go with my original thoughts.

Also someone who Is innocent defends against a PoE by showing that someone outside of one's townread is wrong.

I still haven't read the thread.

I thought Team 9 was maybe scum until the heads addressed each other (1584) and that makes me lean town for some reason. If one head is acting scummy and the other isn't openly disagreeing/calling them out, it looks like distancing from one's own slot if that makes sense. Like they don't want to draw attention to it.

Although, I don't recall Cirno (the townier of the two) ever addressing Rumia's posts, only vice versa, so I guess the tell-based read still stands now that I think about it.

Um doing what you said is like a hydra version of Amish tell.

... ok?

QUOTE. ME.

I'm not going to pointlessly quote when you've been over this with GIF already. the point still stands, no matter which one of us is arguing it.

-Rumia

I haven't been over anything with GIF because he never quoted me either. Come on, it's one ISO search. Prove to me that I used that god-awful defense. If I did, well then fuck me, because that's terrible. If I didn't it just confirms my initial suspicion about 1542 that you're pushing me without actual basis and throwing around random shit to justify it.

PEDIT - I never buddied anyone in the hydra.

re: the rest of that post, fair enough. If you don't understand, I'm just frustrated.

You do realize that 1542 wasn't directed towards this game at all and was a hypothetical speaking of one of the scenario that all scums would be inactive/lurk, right? You even thinking about that sentence as a push on you makes me think that you're having a guilty conscious.

-C

ffs I'm starting to think that you guys are not just misreading my posts but are intentionally misrepping me because this is getting ridiculous. I never implied 1542 was directly against me. See above for explanation, I'm done with repeating myself.

Hell, I'll even quote it for you with a context.

So what's the great scum strategy behind having the entire mafia team act like useless, fluffy lurkers in thread?

Proabably wasn't intended.
This game grew too fast that it tired them out and hit them with apathy before it hits town.

I understand that. I've been over this.